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I think I scared my neighbor  Bottom

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  • He is interested in sailing and asked for a test drive. I didn't do a very good job I think...

    In the last 18 years of cat sailing I've capsized about 5 times, plus one for testing. This is the first time I'm able to right the boat solo (almost this time, as my crew didn't hang on the line) without deploying the righting pole, so good experience. It was blowing about 15 kts with gusts of 19 or so.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7fHfADyI2c
  • That didn't look to bad to me. Seems fairly well controlled, as far as speed to capsize, got it righted fast and no one was hurt...moving pretty quick to begin with - I don't see a problem. Your neighbor just got a full-fledged / all-round introduction, I think. Looks like a real nice destination with pretty water, BTW.

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • charlescarlisThat didn't look to bad to me. Seems fairly well controlled, as far as speed to capsize, got it righted fast and no one was hurt...moving pretty quick to begin with - I don't see a problem. Your neighbor just got a full-fledged / all-round introduction, I think. Looks like a real nice destination with pretty water, BTW.

    Thanks, made me feel good..

    Here is a raw version, without fast sections
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3DpaN_JPyI
  • The boat started to sail after righting it, slow but enough to make it harder to get back on board. I forgot to release the cunningham, I think it wouldn't have done that if I had.
  • he asked to see what it was all about - he got it! :)

    not so bad but what happened? failed tack and too much weight windward the the boat flipped over you?

    as per the downhaul - yes with no furling jib i would not only let the cunningham free but the main too. but that is scary too IF the boat gets on a reach....

    this is why i carry an anchor (u may be too deep for that?)
  • MN3he asked to see what it was all about - he got it! :)

    not so bad but what happened? failed tack and too much weight windward the the boat flipped over you?

    as per the downhaul - yes with no furling jib i would not only let the cunningham free but the main too. but that is scary too IF the boat gets on a reach....

    this is why i carry an anchor (u may be too deep for that?)


    I had been sailing more on another beach with more waves where it's harder to tack, so I was backwinding the jib to secure the tacks. This bay is more protected and with much less waves, but the first turns turns were done further out on the bay, with some waves, and starting from a reach, so I did fail the previous tack, you can see that I had to finish it in reverse. And then I did this tack starting more close hauled and closer to the beach, without waves, so it went much faster. Watch on the water how fast it actually turned, I think the jib did that back winded, turned us and flipped us at the same time. The main was rather loose but it may have contributed at some point. My regular crew would have moved faster and handled the jib by her own, that of course is the main factor, not exactly the day to bring inexperienced crew.

    I will consider to release the main hook next time. It should be the first thing to do, if easy enough to reach.
    I do carry an anchor too, hoping that it keeps me out of the surf if I take too long. On this beach it isn't a big deal but on the other one where I sail more often it certainly is.
  • Couple questions…

    Do you always run your clew traveler that far forward?

    You seem to have the crew aft of the shrouds quite a bit and really burying the stern. On a Nacra with modern hulls I’ve been told crew should never be behind the shrouds. Why so much weight to rear?

    It looked like several seconds before the tip over the tiller handle was thrown loose astern? I’ve done this on jibes going downwind but not while tacking. That combined with your delayed movement (not coming off the trap until the tack started and staying downwind even after the main came across) could have led to capsize on its own.



    Edited by carbonc on Oct 25, 2021 - 11:26 PM.
  • carboncCouple questions…

    Do you always run your clew traveler that far forward?

    For than wind yes, I want to depower as much as possible
    carbonc

    You seem to have the crew aft of the shrouds quite a bit and really burying the stern. On a Nacra with modern hulls I’ve been told crew should never be behind the shrouds. Why so much weight to rear?

    I wouldn’t call these modern hulls, it’s an 88 N5.5.
    For the conditions it’s appropriate to have the crew behind the shrouds on this boat, but i was sailing with the main a bit loose because the downhaul wasn’t tight enough and the crew not trapezing. I was also pinching and not taking all the wind, but with the weight set for full speed.
    carbonc
    It looked like several seconds before the tip over the tiller handle was thrown loose astern? I’ve done this on jibes going downwind but not while tacking. That combined with your delayed movement (not coming off the trap until the tack started and staying downwind even after the main came across) could have led to capsize on its own.Edited by carbonc on Oct 25, 2021 - 11:26 PM.

    Yes, we stayed too long on the former windward side, that was 50% of the problem. I normally turn as I come off the trapeze. If I came off before turning the boat would heel. But it’s all a fast and fluid movement involving your crew. Not only I was delayed but my crew didn’t move much during the tack. But I think the critical mistake was to delay the jib change. That flipped the boat real quick. I dropped the stick when I realized that we would capsize. At that point it was already too steep to move to the other side.



    Edited by Andinista on Oct 26, 2021 - 01:17 AM.
  • At 2:33 on the second video, just when I grab the main sheet to pass it around my head, which shows
    that the main was still loose, the boat was already flipping, because of the jib.
  • QuoteI wouldn’t call these modern hulls, it’s an 88 N5.5.
    For the conditions it’s appropriate to have the crew behind the shrouds on this boat, but i was sailing with the main a bit loose because the downhaul wasn’t tight enough and the crew not trapezing. I was also pinching and not taking all the wind, but with the weight set for full speed.


    I fully agree, a "modern" hull like F18 is so much fuller in the forward area, giving more floatation. But I love the sleek lines of the 5.5 hulls and they really shine whith lighter crew or single-handed with reduced sail area, Great boat that that is still "modern" in other ways icon_wink .



    Edited by revintage on Oct 26, 2021 - 06:53 AM.

    --
    Brgds
    Lars

    Frankencat 5.5/F18
    Soon Frankencat 5.8/F20
    49er
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
    --
  • QuoteIn the last 18 years of cat sailing I've capsized about 5 times

    Wow, I need to see you for lessons! I capsized The Beast 3 times in one summer.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • More than a lesson I can share my motivations:
    - I hate losing sailing time
    - That water is COLD...

    I think I just realized why the boat turns when capsized if you sink the bow or the stern...
    I know I'm discovering the wheel but I bet I'm not the only one...

    Suppose that the hulls are perpendicular to the wind, they are pushed sideways in the wind direction, doesn't matter if the mast is pointing windward or leeward. Whatever end that you sink will get "anchored" compared to the other, so the other end will be pushed away from the wind. And because we want the bows to point into the wind, we sink the bow rather than the stern. Of course the sails may work differently and overcome that effect when they are partially submerged and the wind is pushing them, but when that happens you probably need to let it happen until it stops, or maybe help it develop sinking either end of the hull, and if it doesn't end up with the bows into the wind, now you can sink the bow.

    Makes sense?

    More learning on my side... maybe I should capsize more often...
    I also realized that I had capsized in the exact same way before, sailing solo, but I didn't figure out what happened at that time. So I'll pay more attention to the jib change next time I sail solo in strong wind. I also remember a situation when a strong gust hit me and started to flip the boat, I quickly released the main, and saw it completely depowered, but I kept going over because of the jib alone. That's why when it's too strong I believe more in pinching than in easing the sails to keep the boat under control. It sails pretty slow but safer. If I'm sailing solo I won't be able to ease the jib from the trapeze anyway. If there is a crew I instruct him/her to release the jib if we are going over, but I don't count on it.



    Edited by Andinista on Oct 26, 2021 - 12:20 PM.
  • perhaps adding a furler would help resolve some of these issues?

    i.e. put it away in heavy air
    put it away when you have inexperienced crew that moves slow?
    furl it in a capsize to reduce "sail away"



    Edited by MN3 on Oct 26, 2021 - 12:53 PM.
  • Quoteperhaps adding a furler would help resolve some of these issues?

    i.e. put it away in heavy air
    put it away when you have inexperienced crew that moves slow?
    furl it in a capsize to reduce "sail away


    Could be. I would rather take it off or or roll it on the forestay on the beach, though, instead of adding more complexity and throwing more money to this old boat. But I've never been very interested in sailing with the main only. Not sure if I would be able to tack on big waves, which seems to add more risk when sailing on the sea.
  • Another learning is that I was able to re-board the boat pulling myself from the trapeze, it was the first time I tried it. It required some effort and I had to step on the dolphin striker but it worked. I can see it failing after three of four capsizes in a row though, but what technique wouldn't. When I started carrying an anchor I decided to remove the setup I had to re-board, it was the sort of bridle from the beams where you could step, discussed several times here. It was getting too complex, I wanted to recover some simplicity and thought that the trap would be enough, which I confirmed.
  • Andinista
    In the last 18 years of cat sailing I've capsized about 5 times, plus one for testing.

    The amount of times I've not capsized is approaching the number of times that you have!

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
    Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
    Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
    --
  • QuoteThe amount of times I've not capsized is approaching the number of times that you have!


    I'm just overcautious, the reason being is that I sail solo or with my wife and daughters, none of which can singlehand the boat if I'm left behind (nor have a special interest on it). The first time I capsized it was a pitchpole, with my daugther on the trapeze, she was 10 or probably younger, and it took her a couple years to sail again and few more to trust me again. Since then I've payed more attention. With a more expert -and probably heavier- crew it would probably be different, I understand that never capsizing can also be a sign of not pushing your limits. Much the opposite as with skiing for me, I consider myself an advanced skier but I fall pretty often, probably every time :)



    Edited by Andinista on Oct 27, 2021 - 12:04 PM.
  • This is yet another reason that I recommend against getting in the habit of backwinding the jib to tack (on a H16, at least). In heavier air, once backwinded it can be very difficult to release. Either by mistake, a fouled sheet, or just not being able to do things fast enough sailing solo, I've backwinded the jib in heavier air on several occasions. The bows lift, wind gets under the tramp, the skipper's weight is necessarily at the stern trying to pass stick behind mainsheet...and it's wheelie time.

    I think you've got a good handle on the turning the capsized boat into the wind issue. I've heard of folks trying to "swim" the tip of mast around, but that sounds like a bad idea to me on many levels. Be aware that burying the bow doesn't always work as well as expected...not sure why (maybe wave action?). When I'm sailing in iffy conditions (cold, windy, solo, no help around, etc.), I try to stay away from leeward shore as much as possible to allow lots of drift room before hitting rip-rap, seawalls, piers, etc. If I sailed in bigger water often, I'd probably carry a drogue or such as MN3 has suggested before.

    --
    Jerome Vaughan
    Hobie 16
    Clinton, Mississippi
    --
  • Quote I try to stay away from leeward shore as much as possible to allow lots of drift room before hitting rip-rap, seawalls, piers, etc. If I sailed in bigger water often, I'd probably carry a drogue or such as MN3 has suggested before.


    I once tested the water bag as a drogue and declared the test failed. I now realize that for that purpose it should have been attached close to the bows, not near the center beam as when used to right the boat. This way it first helps orienting the boat into the wind and then the windage is much lower and the boat will probably move considerably slower. And will be properly oriented for righting. The only little detail is that I used the water bag for a different purpose than righting the boat... but I have a righting pole. And the idea of carrying a water bag only for redundancy has been on my head for a while. So I might bring it on board next time. Now attaching it to the bridle wouldn't be an easy task when capsized, but I set up a line from the center of the beam to the center of the bowfoil, with a carabiner at the beam side. It is meant to be used for the anchor but may be used for the water bag too, and will allow to recover it after righting the boat too.
  • Quotethe idea of carrying a water bag only for redundancy has been on my head for a while

    I carry a second bag when i sail my 6.0. it takes up very little room and is light - worth the redudency when i am needing "just a little more"

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