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Prindle 19 Spinnaker  Bottom

  • After repairing the hull damage and adding subdecks (and weight) to my Prindle 19, I recently acquired another one. (Because you just can't have too many boats). It was "diamond in the rough" 1993 that had been sitting in a storage yard in the sun for 10 years. Chalky hulls where brought back to life with wet sanding, rubbing, and polishing. Now it looks like new and the hulls are in remarkably good shape. I'll post some photos soon.

    My question is on the spinnaker rig which I am a complete noob on rigging. It's a homemade job using a carbon windsurfer mast. Docs with the boat include a receipt for a used Prindle 18 spinnaker, so I assume that's what the sail is from.

    Two items of concern with the rigging:

    1. The rigging for the pole consists of amsteel lines run to shackles at the bow tangs, and also amsteel lines run to the tips of the bows. The lines run through the hulls to stopper knots on washers on the outboard sides. I believe the bow tips are solid glass at this point.

    http://catsail.com/p19/pj/p19-1.jpeg

    http://catsail.com/p19/pj/p19-2.jpeg

    I was concerned about the loads but came across photos online where other sailors have rigged P19 spin poles to the bow tips. I will probably shroud anchor pins at these locations as I have seen in some of the other sailor's photos:

    https://www.murrays.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/50-20100000.jpg

    Looking for opinions on the loads at this point, and whether I could blow out the bow tips.

    2. The rigging for the head of the sail is concerning. The owner replaced the pin for the halyard pulley with a shackle, then rigged a line bridle to the shackle. (Given all the sealant on the old mast, I will be moving my other mast to this boat as I know it is sealed).

    http://catsail.com/p19/pj/p19-3.jpeg

    I'm concerned about the loads with the sail rigged to the head of the mast. Most rigs I see have the spin head rigged a few feet below the mast head. Any comments on this? I would like to rig the the boat tomorrow to store at the yard at the harbor, and would like to get this set up tonight. I figure with this rig I don't need to add a tang, but wanted to get some other opinions on it. Again, I am new with spinnakers so will only be using this in light air for now.



    Edited by mattson on Mar 15, 2019 - 01:28 PM.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • mattson

    Two items of concern with the rigging:

    1. The rigging for the pole consists of amsteel lines run to shackles at the bow tangs, and also amsteel lines run to the tips of the bows. The lines run through the hulls to stopper knots on washers on the outboard sides. I believe the bow tips are solid glass at this point.

    http://catsail.com/p19/pj/p19-1.jpeg

    I was concerned about the loads but came across photos online where other sailors have rigged P19 spin poles to the bow tips. I will probably shroud anchor pins at these locations as I have seen in some of the other sailor's photos:

    https://www.murrays.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/50-20100000.jpg

    Looking for opinions on the loads at this point, and whether I could blow out the bow tips.

    Yes you could blow out the tips, i have seen it happen to a g-cat with a screecher rigged
    but it's a pretty low risk. if it's a big concern you could always add some epoxy/cloth up there to add strength
    even if it did break off... it wouldn't be catastrophic and easily repaired (if you still have the tip)
    I wouldn't put shroud pins up there - no need at all - line through a stopper knot and washer is fine (and what i have on both my cats)



    Quote2. The rigging for the head of the sail is concerning. The owner replaced the pin for the halyard pulley with a shackle, then rigged a line bridle to the shackle. (Given all the sealant on the old mast, I will be moving my other mast to this boat as I know it is sealed).

    http://catsail.com/p19/pj/p19-3.jpeg

    I'm concerned about the loads with the sail rigged to the head of the mast. Most rigs I see have the spin head rigged a few feet below the mast head. Any comments on this?


    No no no no no
    You do not put a spin halyard to the head of the mast where there is no support - it needs to go much closer to the top of the spreaders (at least on every boat i have owned/ seen with a spin up)

    from catsailor threads -
    The usual advice is 1/3 of the way above where the shrouds attach...
    This is not true. This was the advice that the designer of the Supercat line, Bill Roberts, gave to everyone. However nearly as goood as all other designers (and therefor designs) have the spi gate at 60% of the distance between hound fitting and mast top.
    https://www.catsailor.com…halyard-where#Post116082
  • MN3... However nearly as goood as all other designers (and therefor designs) have the spi gate at 60% of the distance between hound fitting and mast top.


    Thanks for the advice with this. A couple of questions:

    60% meaning closer to the hounds or closer to the mast head?

    Also, in your link to the post a tang is mentioned. Wouldn't there be a requirement for a bail of sorts, like the line bail in my photo? Otherwise, I would think the mast would counter rotate as the spin loaded up.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • MN3-
    The usual advice is 1/3 of the way above where the shrouds attach...
    This is not true. This was the advice that the designer of the Supercat line, Bill Roberts, gave to everyone. However nearly as goood as all other designers (and therefor designs) have the spi gate at 60% of the distance between hound fitting and mast top.


    So in reading other posts, I've determined the 60% is closer to the masthead than the shrouds. And I also found this old post of yours:

    https://www.thebeachcats.…c/13199/start/0#pid34302

    How did you attached the line bail? I spoke with Steve Murray a bit ago and he mentioned drilling holes for the line in the mast track. I figure this must be as far back in the track as I can go to not interfer with the bolt rope.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • I drilled 2 holes in the sidewalls of the track of my 5.5
    in a spot that will not interfere with the bolt rope

    2 small holes so i can thread the dyneema bail into the track and back out the track on each side. small stopper knot to secure it

    my 6.0 was set up with only 1 small hole drilled in each side. this method leaves the single knot outside the mast and the knot will slide around with the block.

    both methods work and has really not (Knot) been a problem
  • MN3I drilled 2 holes in the sidewalls of the track of my 5.5
    in a spot that will not interfere with the bolt rope

    2 small holes so i can thread the dyneema bail into the track and back out the track on each side. small stopper knot to secure it

    my 6.0 was set up with only 1 small hole drilled in each side. this method leaves the single knot outside the mast and the knot will slide around with the block.

    both methods work and has really not (Knot) been a problem


    This helps a lot. I'll see how far I get with this tomorrow. I figure if the P18 spin was originally rigged to the mast head, the pole was either rigged high or is too short. At a slight upward angle, the pole extends about 4 ft past the bows, which seems plenty long.

    Looking forward to a whole new way of hurting myself.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • MN3I drilled 2 holes in the sidewalls of the track of my 5.5
    in a spot that will not interfere with the bolt rope

    2 small holes so i can thread the dyneema bail into the track and back out the track on each side. small stopper knot to secure it

    my 6.0 was set up with only 1 small hole drilled in each side. this method leaves the single knot outside the mast and the knot will slide around with the block.

    both methods work and has really not (Knot) been a problem


    Sorry to bug....

    Is the spinnaker head only supported by the bail? Or is there a leader line run above it. I ask after seeing this post at catsailor:

    https://www.catsailor.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/32094/spinnaker-halyard-attachment

    https://a4.pbase.com/u42/d30/upload/27640937.IMG_6627.jpg

    I will have a block on the bail to prevent the chafe shown in the photo. This rig looks like there is a heavier line run up the mast to take some load. Not sure I would need this if the bail is amsteel.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • QuoteSorry to bug....

    Is the spinnaker head only supported by the bail? Or is there a leader line run above it. I ask after seeing this post at catsailor:

    not bugging me at all - fire away

    I have both setups
    on the 5.5 i had a spin tang. I thought it was way too high so i drilled the holes, added the dyneema (dingy control line with a jacket to reduce chafe) and ran a "line run up the mast" to the tang as shown above

    on the 6.0 he previous owner) simply drilled the holes and ran a line. the halyard block top simply rides the bail sans a "line run up the mast" - both seem fine - the 6.0 does suffer worse chafe

    at about $.50 worth of 2mm (maybe 3mm) dyneema per mast ... having to change this out every few seasons isn't a big deal (but keep an eye on it for sure . - it's gonna chafe when your spin is full and you are gybing a bunch)
  • MN3
    QuoteSorry to bug....

    Is the spinnaker head only supported by the bail? Or is there a leader line run above it. I ask after seeing this post at catsailor:

    not bugging me at all - fire away

    I have both setups
    on the 5.5 i had a spin tang. I thought it was way too high so i drilled the holes, added the dyneema (dingy control line with a jacket to reduce chafe) and ran a "line run up the mast" to the tang as shown above

    on the 6.0 he previous owner) simply drilled the holes and ran a line. the halyard block top simply rides the bail sans a "line run up the mast" - both seem fine - the 6.0 does suffer worse chafe

    at about $.50 worth of 2mm (maybe 3mm) dyneema per mast ... having to change this out every few seasons isn't a big deal (but keep an eye on it for sure . - it's gonna chafe when your spin is full and you are gybing a bunch)


    Sounds good. I'll just go with the bail line. Note that I plan to run the double block shown in my photo of the mast head. I figure this should reduce or pretty much eliminate any chafe.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • I finally got conditions (coinciding with free time) to run the spinnaker yesterday. Lots of fun, but lots of stuff to work out and tune.

    Backtracking a bit, I did run the dyneema bail line into the mast track as suggested. I used a depth gauge to make sure I hit the extreme back of the track as to not interfere with the sail bolt rope. Unfortunately, this location drilled into the interior of the mast. I basically now have four holes into the interior, two on the sides of the mast and two inside of the track, the later being very difficult to seal. Also, with the dyneema moving, I doubt the holes in the sides of the mast will remain sealed. This was very disappointing as during a past repair, I had to drill out a rivet and heard a "whoosh" when I did so. This mast WAS completely sealed before.

    I'm thinking of removing the line, injecting some very thick epoxy on each side to seal both the exterior and interior holes, then install a conventional metal type bail.

    When I originally hoisted the spinnaker, it appeared way too large, as I could not get the luff straight. Just looking at some photos and video revealed this to be normal. I also compared to a friends P19 spin and the luff lengths are identical. The last spinnaker I trimmed as crew on a beach cat has a way straighter luff, so it was probably a hooter.

    I ran the sheet through a rachtamatic block at the rear cross bar. Looking at the shape, I think it may need to come forward. One implication here is that the spinnaker pole is 13' 8" long. This may be too long as I think I had read the standard on a Nac 20 is 12 ft.

    It also looks like I need a swivel at the head. After the third hoist yesterday, I had about 2 ft of sail twisted at the head with no way to deal with it.

    Other finer points to work out in the way of the tack line and halyard. But otherwise a joy to run that sail last night! Lost track of time and pulled in to the dock at 7:30pm.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • .



    Edited by mattson on Apr 27, 2019 - 12:33 PM.
  • Quick comments,

    For luff slack, grab the luff with your hand. You should have enough slack to turn your hand 90 degrees as a rule of thumb. Better to rig towards the tighter side and make a mark on your halyard for the hand method. Then you can experiment with more or less luff tension.

    As far as the bail goes, I think you can be pretty agressive with something like a P19 mast. Its a telephone pole compared todays rigs. I have seen a mast head kite on a F16 before and that mast is a noodle! I would rather raise the hoist some over keeping the pole super low.

    You should not need a swivel up top. It getting twisted up happens from time to time. We have always been able to work it out.

    --
    Greenville SC

    Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
    --
  • QuoteI'm thinking of removing the line, injecting some very thick epoxy on each side to seal both the exterior and interior holes, then install a conventional metal type bail.

    I'm sure that would be fine except my welder tells me anywhere i use epoxy on my spars he will not weld - those materials aren't friendly for future welding - probably a moot point here





    QuoteI ran the sheet through a rachtamatic block at the rear cross bar. Looking at the shape, I think it may need to come forward. One implication here is that the spinnaker pole is 13' 8" long. This may be too long as I think I had read the standard on a Nac 20 is 12 ft.

    It also looks like I need a swivel at the head. After the third hoist yesterday, I had about 2 ft of sail twisted at the head with no way to deal with it.


    the older giant simetric spins used to have the blocks on the rear beam
    newer spins are smaller and on mystere 5.5 and 6.0 we put our first set of blocks on the side-stay adjuster via a shackle

    as per the swivel - hour-glassing in a spin is pretty common and can usually be handled by messing with the sheets to help it un-twist BUT occasionally is a real problem - i don't know any beach cats that use a swivel (although i think it could work)

    Bacho is on point with the luff tension -


    Quote I think it may need to come forward. One implication here is that the spinnaker pole is 13' 8" long. This may be too long as I think I had read the standard on a Nac 20 is 12 ft.

    class rules for Tornado's is" 4000mm from the front of the main beam to the "bearing surface" (ie. forward side of the block sheave) " 4000mm = 13.12336'
    NTERNATIONAL
    NACRA F20 CARBON
    CLASS RULES rules = Maximum bowsprit is 4170 mm = 13.6811' (not that class rules for other boats matter but good starting point)

    If you shorten your bow sprit (and leave your tang at the same spot) you will have more slack in your luff



    Edited by MN3 on Apr 29, 2019 - 11:04 AM.
  • On my 19, I used a bow foil (similar to a N6.0) with a chute. I had a spreader on the pole below the foil, but I attached the side stays to the forestay tangs. I am not a fan of drilling holes through the tip. I've seen the holes drilled and I've seen tangs attached to the tips. The boat is light enough (to fly a hull instead of buckling down and loading up) where I don't think it is a structural issue; I'don't like the possibility of leaks. I ran my chute system for 15+ years with no issues. On the halyard, I did as previously stated as a block hanging about 3' down from the masthead and a restrainer line side to side. I first had the block mounted on the front of the mast, but the loads kept unrotating the mast in big breeze. You want to have the mast fully rotated while flying the chute. Think of the loads the chute pulls on the mast. Try to keep the loads in-line with the fore/aft section of the mast. I have used poles that are a couple feet infront of the bows to several feet. There is two different concepts for cat chutes; go big and deep, or small and high. I think the older cats need the big and deep chute. It's all about VMG downwind. The Prindles do not have a flat enough transom to power reach in medium breeze well with a chute. I have had a big chute that sheeted on the transom and a small reacher that sheets on the shroud chain plate. The small reacher does give you more options on your race courses. I think you would have more options with a smaller chute. There is no set rule for chutes on cats. Everyone will have their opinion. Some days certain chutes will run better than others. If you are learning to fly a chute, I would suggest running a smaller chute to get used to it. Smaller chutes stow better in tubes.

    --
    Scott

    Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
    Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
    Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly" - gone
    Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
    Nacra 5.0
    Nacra 5.8
    Tornadoes (Reg White)
    --
  • On my 19, I used a bow foil (similar to a N6.0) with a chute. I had a spreader on the pole below the foil, but I attached the side stays to the forestay tangs. I am not a fan of drilling holes through the tip. I've seen the holes drilled and I've seen tangs attached to the tips. The boat is light enough (to fly a hull instead of buckling down and loading up) where I don't think it is a structural issue; I'don't like the possibility of leaks. I ran my chute system for 15+ years with no issues. On the halyard, I did as previously stated as a block hanging about 3' down from the masthead and a restrainer line side to side. I first had the block mounted on the front of the mast, but the loads kept unrotating the mast in big breeze. You want to have the mast fully rotated while flying the chute. Think of the loads the chute pulls on the mast. Try to keep the loads in-line with the fore/aft section of the mast. I have used poles that are a couple feet infront of the bows to several feet. There is two different concepts for cat chutes; go big and deep, or small and high. I think the older cats need the big and deep chute. It's all about VMG downwind. The Prindles do not have a flat enough transom to power reach in medium breeze well with a chute. I have had a big chute that sheeted on the transom and a small reacher that sheets on the shroud chain plate. The small reacher does give you more options on your race courses. I think you would have more options with a smaller chute. There is no set rule for chutes on cats. Everyone will have their opinion. Some days certain chutes will run better than others. If you are learning to fly a chute, I would suggest running a smaller chute to get used to it. Smaller chutes stow better in tubes.

    --
    Scott

    Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
    Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
    Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly" - gone
    Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
    Nacra 5.0
    Nacra 5.8
    Tornadoes (Reg White)
    --
  • On my 19, I used a bow foil (similar to a N6.0) with a chute. I had a spreader on the pole below the foil, but I attached the side stays to the forestay tangs. I am not a fan of drilling holes through the tip. I've seen the holes drilled and I've seen tangs attached to the tips. The boat is light enough (to fly a hull instead of buckling down and loading up) where I don't think it is a structural issue; I'don't like the possibility of leaks. I ran my chute system for 15+ years with no issues. On the halyard, I did as previously stated as a block hanging about 3' down from the masthead and a restrainer line side to side. I first had the block mounted on the front of the mast, but the loads kept unrotating the mast in big breeze. You want to have the mast fully rotated while flying the chute. Think of the loads the chute pulls on the mast. Try to keep the loads in-line with the fore/aft section of the mast. I have used poles that are a couple feet infront of the bows to several feet. There is two different concepts for cat chutes; go big and deep, or small and high. I think the older cats need the big and deep chute. It's all about VMG downwind. The Prindles do not have a flat enough transom to power reach in medium breeze well with a chute. I have had a big chute that sheeted on the transom and a small reacher that sheets on the shroud chain plate. The small reacher does give you more options on your race courses. I think you would have more options with a smaller chute. There is no set rule for chutes on cats. Everyone will have their opinion. Some days certain chutes will run better than others. If you are learning to fly a chute, I would suggest running a smaller chute to get used to it. Smaller chutes stow better in tubes.

    --
    Scott

    Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
    Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
    Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly" - gone
    Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
    Nacra 5.0
    Nacra 5.8
    Tornadoes (Reg White)
    --
  • All great information, guys. This all helps a lot. Going to stay with the length of pole, and measure the luff with the hand twist as suggested the next time I rig the boat.

    By the way, I had a swivel from a Hobie 18 forestay and it worked great a couple of times. On the last hoist, I got a wrap in the halyard which the swivel corrected after a 3rd hoist. But I believe the wrap in the halyard occurred because the swivel was there. I need to experiment more with this.

    This one point does not make sense to me:

    texastumaYou want to have the mast fully rotated while flying the chute. Think of the loads the chute pulls on the mast. Try to keep the loads in-line with the fore/aft section of the mast.


    Keeping the mast fully rotated will put the load on the side of the mast, not fore and aft. Am I reading this wrong?

    Also, I read somewhere that the main should be travelled out and sheeted tight to act as a backstay. I did this and it stopped the mast bend but was not the best sail trim.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
    --
  • QuoteKeeping the mast fully rotated will put the load on the side of the mast, not fore and aft. Am I reading this wrong?

    Also, I read somewhere that the main should be travelled out and sheeted tight to act as a backstay

    IF the rotation was pinned at 90* - and you were sailing ddw then you would be correct
    but the rotation should be free and you don't sail ddw with a spin *(unless in a restricted channel or other)
    you heat it up by heading up a bit and taking a bite ... then you fall back off and ride it till your ready for "another bite" - so the spin will be off to the side and the rotation will follow

    YES you MUST keep the main sheeted tightly
    i will leave the traveler part of this question to others . i am not positive what is the correct answer,

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