Anyone here have tiller time on a 580? I am opening up my possibilities to the later range of 17-18 footers and really like the looks and specs of this boat.
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Nacra 580?
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 12:12 PM
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 01:19 PM
I haven't sailed one, but I did check one out. It is like a newer, updated 5.8 with pork chop looking centerboards instead of daggers. The centerboards reminded me more of a Shark centerboards rather than Prindle 18-2 or 19 boards because of the way they worked. They definitely make the boat more beach friendly. They look like really nice boats! -
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 01:19 PM
I do. What do you want to know? It's similar to the 5.8 but pivot centerboards, updated sail plan, spin kit, etc. Nacra changed the main to a boom vs. boomless.
If I had to choose between 5.8 or 580 I would pic 5.8NA for performance/racing and pic the 580 for recreational use.
Now to throw you a curve ball. I would pick the F18 over the 580 for oh so many reasons.
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Philip
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 01:35 PM
I wouldn't mind having a 580 sometime.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
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1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 02:44 PM
Are you looking at the one that is for sale in Minneapolis? For the price it is worth it.
I would say the 580 is a great boat to get, but there are some sweet 5.8 and 6.0 out there that can be had for a great price..
That said and from talking t a few owners, the 580 had some refinements done that they seem to like over the 5.8 such as wider beam.. few inches, retractable boards which is a plus, newer rudder system old one sucked, a boomed main which IMPO is good, and a non overlapping jib which IMPO is more efficient that the honker of a jib that was used on the 5.8NA. I don't seem to remember if they ever gave the 580 a Portsmouth number..
Whatever you get, mark next August 17th or 24th on you calendar for the Tri-Point Ocean Race.... you are somewhere in California....right!
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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 03:04 PM
F18 is looks like a razor looking to shave course time for sure. I am looking for something with a fairly uncluttered tramp, a modern hull design, updated sail construction and the ability to haul balls without being on the edge unless really pushed. The 580 looks like it would fit the bill. My Hobie 18 is a beautiful high performance truck. It is an 82, so its really heavy. Hal explained to me that if I would sail in a frikin lake that has some other cats running around, help is generally not far off when the inevitable happens. I will sail this solo about 50% of the time. The A Cat is cool from a weight perspective, but I fear it would be a tad more edgy.
The biggest problem is that there are so many good to great designs out there. We live in spoiled times. I seriously doubt that a guy could buy a bad modern boat.
So, 580 sounds awesome. But so does a no boom having 5.whatever it is. And then there are always the Hobies...Ugh.
It sounds like you have had a good time with the 580. I have yet to read a bad comment about that specific boat. If I can locate a nice one, I will find out through the best way I know. Jump on and go for it!
Thank you for the input.
Edited by astglenn on Aug 27, 2012 - 01:24 PM.
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 03:33 PM
You bring up a great point.
I wonder if a guy could have a boat shipped in a truck? The cats must be shipped all over the world. I guess it would be a matter of getting a seller that was competent to disassemble the boat, or having a shop pull it down and pack it up. I could see this adding a couple grand to the price if one had to kneel to the mercy of whatever shop might take it on. In the 7-9K range for a boat and trailer, that is a big number by percentage and likely queers it up.
I am in Southern CA frequently. We surf Huntington Beach. I bet I can find a nice one down there somewhere. That is as simple as a 7 hour yank to get her back.
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 06:11 PM
What's your name?
Of all the criteria that you listed, the 580 really does not fit the bill. The hull is modified (boards, beam beds) from the original design from the 80's, if that is what is important to you. Still the original design was a great hull that was before its time. The typical layout of the 580 does not have a self tacking jib, which all modern sloop rigs now have. If you are sailing with a spin you absolutely want a self tacker, and even more so if you are sailing solo. The boat is still heavy, and sailing it solo in a good stiff breeze is no fun. It's not really set up for solo, and it is a powerful 19 foot beast.
Uncluttered tramp: All the current boats come with a perfectly uncluttered tramp, by design. The 580 is a bit better than the vintage old boats of yester-year in clutter as the jib blocks are mounted on the beam and they did away with the 4-way set up.
There are not a lot of 580's in circulation in the US (more so across the pond) and sourcing important parts like the pivoting dagger would be expensive and likewise, would be a deal killer for me.
For your budget, and considering your zest for a modern design, you might want to put some thought in the A-cat, F-16, or F-18. All three platforms meet your criteria and there are plenty to choose from. They all offer the "haul balls" factor. The F-18 is still heavy and probably more than a handful if you are keen on solo. The A-cat is beauty in its own art form in every way, but strictly a solo rig.
Might as well throw in the F17, a dated but still fairly modern design. They are dirt cheap and set up for solo, and you can add a jib and sail it two up.
I would again look at what you want from your boat and re-evaluate.
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Philip
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 07:39 PM
I really appreciate you taking the time to reach out with all this information. Let me get my priorities straight in my head and list them sensibly. If you are willing to offer this level of recommendation, I desire to ask the right questions. I shall return. BTW. My name is Glenn.
Edited by astglenn on Aug 27, 2012 - 05:40 PM.
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 08:10 PM
OK. I am going to keep my 82 Hobie 18. It is factory new condition. Whirlwind main and jib. Just ordered the last of the blocks to fully Harkenize it. It has a Cheetah OB bracket. It is a great, fairly fast truck. When I distill the mission statement, I guess what I desire is a sports car with reasonable manners.
Order of priorities:
Construction quality and support for parts
Single hand well at its design performance envelope (running at 50% of capacity makes no sense to me)
Handling can be attention demanding in stronger conditions but not divergent.
Performance without throwing a spin, jen, or any other 3rd sail
Well sorted running rigging. Several of the boats I have seen (Older Nacra I believe) would assure my drowning and washing up on the beach looking like the victim of a bondage and discipline murder. I can't always count on a crew. Wife busy. Kids busy. I am sure this is a broken record of what you all run into.
About me:
230 Lb Hawaiian / Portogee (South Pacific Jew) Active surfer, grounded pilot, recreational boxer, wanna be sailor and full time coxman. I have serious torque on tap and a very serious dedication to learning how to properly sail a cat. There it is.
Somewhere it became obvious that one boat can't do all things perfectly. I really hope that 2 can!
Thank you
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 08:30 PM
Hey Glenn,
So you keep the H18 for two or more and get a second boat to solo, right?
No spin, correct?
That opens you up to a lot of older boats, especially if you update the sails like you did with Chip.
As for "well sorted running rigging", you can take any of the older boats and really clean things up with modern ideas. Most of the modern boats are spin boats, but don't rule them out, they really are addictive!
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Philip
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 08:36 PM
Can I assume that the Hobie FX 1 would be in the "adaptable" 17 footers that will still get it on as a single crew boat?
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 09:32 PM
The Hobie FX One is designed to be a single-handed racing boat, doesn't mean it can't carry two, but it's an actual single hander. With Spin.
There aren't very many of them in the USA.
http://www.hobiecat.com/sailboats/fx-one/
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 09:53 PM
Good deal, the Hobie 18 can handle a very wide range of crew weight. One note is that your 1982 model is in the heaviest range of model years. 1981 to 1983 were the heaviest, 1984-1986 the lightest (but most prone to failure) after 1987 you get the best rudder system, and after 1989 they are as good and light as they get. (unfortunately Hobie didn't sell many Hobie 18's after 1989 so they are hard to find)
Since I weigh more than you I can tell you that NONE of the beachcats that are designed/advertised as single handed boats will sail at their design performance with 230 lb's on board. Doesn't mean they will all sink (like a Hobie 17 will with that weight) but it will be a dog.
I single hand my Hobie 18 a lot, even in regattas and distance races. The only problem is moving it around, getting it on and off the trailer, and raising the mast. Problems indeed. Lots of times I would like to trailer the boat down to the local lake but don't want to face it all alone.
I've looked at some of the lightweight boats that are designed for two-up as single-hand alternatives for big boys.
The Bimare Javelin 18 HT would be an interesting choice since it is meant to be two-handed, but is very light (less than 300 lbs) and only has main and spin. I could sail one of those like it was a giant A-Class cat and just leave the spin for when you have two aboard.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 11:15 PM
Damon, have you tried soloing a 5.8? It's quite a ride and you've got the weight to not be totally insignificant.
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Rob
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Posted: Aug 28, 2012 - 12:24 AM
No, but mummp has plenty of solo stick time on the 5.8.
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Damon Linkous
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Posted: Aug 28, 2012 - 08:34 AM
You make a number of great points Damon. I am new to cats but not remotely new to getting a buoyant structure to travel through water. Let me put on my douche hat for a min. I had to get all these variables down to Newtonian physics so I could look at the characteristics inherent to the several particular platforms. Please excuse the departure into psychobabble. I get paid to do this, so I did a little "Gubment" work for myself. I work in DOD issues best left indefinite.
Your points tell the exact story that the data in my hydraulics and dynamics tables would suggest. A light bulb has gone on in my dimly lit head.
Wetted surface, Buoyancy, force, reaction and moment all form this fairly linear line to a Delta of operating range. I guess you could say that I am examining the "Formula" that some of the different boats follow. Each design and plan-form will operate outside of its formula range without a doubt. The tolerance of operation outside of the sweet spot is a derivative of the tolerance of the Formula itself. The hot boats do not like weight (additional wetted surface and longitudinal resistance) in a much more pronounced protest than a big truck like our Hobie 18's. Hull volume is a big part of the equation but it goes much deeper than just the buoyancy comps. It changes the force reactions (how the hulls change their plane) and a laundry list of downstream reactions. As tramp and line monkeys, we can adjust, but adjusting to compensate certain reactions only leads to an increase of another reaction that is likely worse. Your point holds water. No pun intended!
I can now clearly see why the Hobie 17, a boat that I assumed would be THE boat for me at 230, would essentially handle like a soviet wheelbarrow full of anvils at that weight. It would also likely fight back when attempting a tack and to a lesser degree a gybe. Too much wetted surface, driving a need for more push without sufficient lift, which reacts as more hull compression, which creates more resistance. The slower the hulls are moving, the more pronounced it would get. It's a lot like being married. The worse you want it, the worse you get it. When you need it really bad, you get it really bad.
From what my eagerly learning self has seen and calculated, at 230 I am soundly into a Hobie 18 or maybe Nacra 5.8 for learning and a detuned F-18 type of rig for flying. I am sure there are 17's with numbers that would support success. These two just stick out as easy examples. The A-cat platform has enough power to mask some issues I bet. A talented sailor can overcome much. I am not that as of yet by any means. I will be at some point.
So Damon. If I hear you right, sailing the H-18 solo is what I should go for. From what my calculations show, uhh, you are pretty much right!
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Posted: Aug 28, 2012 - 08:52 AM
Let me add:
We modified a gin pole here in the fab shop that seems to work really well for the mast step nightmare. I don't much care for that entire process. I am not afraid of it, I just know how completely sketchy that it REALLY is. So long as the mast is raised under some lateral stability, its barely OK. That entire undertaking is one component failure away from everyone knowing that something went really wrong at best and a smashed car or bystander at worst. Meh. I could be happy never stepping that mast again. We are drawing up a replacement hinge in Solid Works and will likely machine in-house out of Duplex or Titanium. I hate that stock, cast aluminum hinge plate.
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Posted: Aug 28, 2012 - 10:34 AM
I disagree with most of this, if I understand what you're trying to say anyway..
The newer designs have mostly moved the buoyancy lower and lower in the hull (from apple to pear) over time, which makes them much more weight, wave, and driver, forgiving per given buoyancy. The newer designs also do have more hull volume quite often, although the 5.8 certainly has plenty, which also makes them more weight forgiving per given hull length.
However, what I find most important for soloing a boat is how easy it is to control, and newer designs EXCEL at that. The biggest problem I've had with soloing older cats is the jib. I've got no problem handling it while on the tramp, during maneuvers, but it can be a liability in a blow when trapped out. The newer designs (which I'm assuming is what you mean when you say 'hot boats') have moved the power more to the main, and shrunk the jib, and for the most part allow you to get away with handling 1-2 lines at any given time when trapped solo -- downhaul/mainsheet when going up or kite sheet downhill.
Soloing a 5.5 or 5.8, while flying a hull, I have to be careful of puffs from behind (lifters?) as, if I'm reaching at all, they can fill and power the jib, and add a ton of heel, very quickly.
Just MHO.
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Rob
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Posted: Aug 28, 2012 - 10:53 AM
I am only exploring hulls, volume and buoyancy at this point of my limited knowledge.
Moving the break even point of buoyancy resolves into several derivatives. One is a center of reaction at the rolling moment. The other is the overturning moment. Both are linked, however exclusive reactions. However that resolves into what a first class sailor like yourself feels, is beyond my skill set. Once I get more seat time, I'll likely disagree with me too. It happens often.
So you would say that the big truck H-18 is more sensitive to the "Edge" and that sensitivity comes from the additional power at the jib in a gust and that happens more when hiked out and adding additional resistance to overturning. By placing the power in the main on a modern boat, is it just the accessibility of the control of the main that makes it behave nice, "you can de-power in time" or is there something else about the behavior of the system?
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