Trying to come back to the cats...

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robb5150

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 11:18 AM

Hi to all...
Here's the story, I hope its not boring to death.
Me and my brother had a Hobie 16 for about 8 years. I live in Puerto Rico, but he relocated to the states and we decided to sell it. That was about 15 years ago in 1998. I was unable to find a Hobie 14 at the moment, so I took windsurfing instead, nice and fast, been doing it when I can.
Recently I was bitten again and I have been in the market for a nice cat. I think I spent 4 hours yesterday reading the forums here.

In Puerto Rico we have a very limited market, mostly Hobie 16's (race-ready), a few Hobie Waves and Getaways. In the last ten years I have seen about 2 Hobie 17's Sport, 3-4 Prindles 16, 3-4 Nacras, 1 Tornado, 1 Supercat, all in the water, NONE for sale. Everything else are Hobie 16's and 18's. Plenty of them. I wish I could get my hands on a Nacra 430, but the costs of delivering any cat to Puerto Rico sometimes outweigh the cost of the boat itself.
I tried a Hobie Wave in the Dominican Republic while on vacation, but after owning a H16 and having sailed a H14 many times, I think the Hobie Wave is S L O W.
I'm 5'-4", 155 lbs, athletic build. I used to practice olympic wrestling and later olympic weightlifting, I can say I'm fit, I still go to the gym after work. Problem is, a fully rigged Hobie 16 is too big for me to solo and right up if capsized.

I remember the Hobie we used to own had a mast with a comptip, but the mainsail had the reefing grommets between the first and second battens. We never sailed with the mainsail reefed.

I have an opportunity to buy a nice 1994 Hobie 16 at a good price, two mainsails and one jib. I have been thinking if there could be the possibility to put grommets in one of the mainsails (the oldest one) so I could reef it and use it until I can find a reliable crew... BUT... I read a post regarding the Hobie 16 may develop problems with the comptip if it is sailed with the mainsail reefed.
I remember we sold the H16 precisely because I knew I would be unable to sail it alone, but I did not consider ever reefing the sail until last night.

Any suggestions??? All advice will be greatly appreciated and considered in depth.

Thanks,

Robert
smfinley

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Registered: Apr 24, 2005

Last visit: Apr 18, 2023

Posts: 709
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 02:30 PM

A righting pole may help right the boat solo. Sounds like not many options available for solo boats. In addition to adding grommets, the old boats also had 2 locations on the halyard anchor the head of the sail. You might remember the a second stop crimped onto the halyard that caught in the V on the front of the mast at the top. So just adding grommets might not be all that is needed to reef the main. Ocean sailing solo is risky with out knowing if you can right the boat. Hopefully you sail where others are around.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--
nacra55

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 02, 2004

Last visit: Aug 07, 2023

Posts: 626
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 06:07 PM

There's a Hobie dealer in Puerto Rico, the Beach Captain or something like that. Nice guy, will ship parts to the US. Back in the mid 90's Hobie had a 1-800 number that was supposed to connect you to your nearest dealer. Several times it connected me to him. I'm in Mississippi.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--
davefarmer

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 26, 2002

Last visit: Sep 23, 2019

Posts: 390
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 09:14 PM

I've soloed an H16 a lot, up to about 12 kts of breeze without reefing. It requires a real comfort on the wire, moving forward upwind, and way aft downwind, I had a footstrap aft of the rear beam, and felt very secure there. I had a solid mast, so no issues with the comptip. I'd think that if the head of the main was below the comptip when reefed you'd be fine.

To add reef points you need not only add new cringles/grommets for the new tack and clew, but those areas need additional sail material added to distribute the substantial loads at those points. Also, 3 grommets are installed between the tack and clew to allow small lines to be run thru the sail to secure the excess sail below the reef points. As Scott mentioned, an additional slug is swaged to the hlyd that will knock into th V at the masthead at the proper point to position the head below the comptip and the new tack at the right spot to allow the downhaul to work as designed. It's important to downhaul the main hard in high winds to flatten the sail as much as possible.

The mast needs to be meticulously sealed to insure that no water enters, to make righting easy/possible. A Hobie Bob masthead float is another possibility. A righting pole might work at your weight, the big Murray's righting bag is probably the most likely to be successful every time. If you choose the bag, consider a pocket sewn to the bottom of the tramp in which to store it(quick access), and a Hawaiian righting line system. I'm also a fan of a drift sock (also stored in the undertramp pocket) that can be deployed off the lower bow, to keep the bows into the wind, aiding the righting operation further. Being able to get the boat back up quickly is extremely important when sailing solo.

Setting up a roller furling jib might also be useful for reducing sail area for solo sailing and safety(getting caught out with too much sail up). It's difficult to reef the main at sea in rising winds, hard to keep the boat pointed into the wind while messing with the sail. It's tougher to tack the 16 without a jib, but it can be done with practice.

I think I had 2 sets of reef points in my main, although I think I only used the second set once in monster conditions. Might be worthwhile if you go very far from port, though to use mainsail reefing in rising breeze really requires having somewhere to beach to lower the sail.

I really liked the 16 as a solo boat, if you set it up well, and judiciously mate your skills to the conditions, it'll treat you well.

Dave
robb5150

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 10:45 PM

Thank you all for your advice.
SMFINLEY:
There are confined waters here as well as open ocean, no lakes. I used to sail them all the time, and there are always powerboats and sailboats around, as well as plenty of air traffic. Its one of the main routes to St. Thomas and the rest of the US Virgin Islands. I have been in boats since I was about 7 years old, and I know when the conditions will require any vessel less than 25 feet to stay in port. I respect the ocean and will never dare to challenge it. Nevertheless, sea conditions may turn nasty anywhere in a matter of minutes.

NACRA55:
Back in the 80's there was a dealer here, La Veleria (Spanish for The Sail Yard). I think it went out of business at the end of the 80's. After that a new shop was established in 1990 or 1991, believe it or not, it is called BEACH CATS( I can post a picture). It is still the primary dealer in Puerto Rico for parts and accessories for small cats, and the official dealer for the Hobie Cat Company. We also have three West Marine stores here. I believe Beach Cats is owned and run by Enrique Figueroa, who has been a Centroamerican/Panamerican Gold medalist in the Hobie 16, and who was the olympic hopeful in the Tornado for many olympic games. I think he is currently in Galveston, TX, for the North American Championships in the new Nacra 17, the multihull class for the olympics in Rio de Janeiro 2016. It was some kind of qualifying event or some like that, I'm not much into competition.

DAVEFARMER:
I thought the setup to reef the mainsail was not so complicated. I remember the additional slug on the main halyard, but I don't remember anything else on the mainsail, other than the grommets. The fore and aft grommets were reinforced I think, and they were about one or two inches higher than the three grommets in the center. Based on your explanation I guess they were reinforced because of the tension at the outhaul and downhaul lines. The other three were there to tie the excess sail to the boom. I thought of a roller-furling jib, but I think I would have to re-cut the regular, battened jib, right? I will get some more information about the righting pole, seems one of the best ways to go for safety.
I always carried a handheld VHF radio, though.

People, you don't know how thankful I am for your advice...
yurdle

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 22, 2007

Last visit: Jan 07, 2015

Posts: 742
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 11:24 PM

QuoteI believe Beach Cats is owned and run by Enrique Figueroa, who has been a Centroamerican/Panamerican Gold medalist in the Hobie 16, and who was the olympic hopeful in the Tornado for many olympic games. I think he is currently in Galveston, TX, for the North American Championships in the new Nacra 17, the multihull class for the olympics in Rio de Janeiro 2016. It was some kind of qualifying event or some like that, I'm not much into competition.

I'm in Galveston right now -- they held the Hobie North America regatta here. He'd have been on an H16 or H18 if he was here. Just FYI.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--
robb5150

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 26, 2013 - 11:48 PM

Thanks for the correction Yurdle.
Then he is on a Hobie 16. I had the information wrong. I though he was racing in the Nacra 17.

Robert
Edchris177

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Registered: Nov 26, 2009

Last visit: Apr 10, 2024

Posts: 2524
Posted: Oct 27, 2013 - 07:19 AM

QuoteI had a footstrap aft of the rear beam, and felt very secure there.

After this season that is number 1 on my list, I got washed off my 5.7 twice this season. Once the GPS showed 21mph on a broad reach, the boat flipped as I went Peter Panning past the shroud.

QuoteIf you choose the bag, consider a pocket sewn to the bottom of the tramp in which to store it(quick access),

I thought that was the better place, but didn't want to remove the tramp & get a new pocket sewn in, also worried about the consequences if it ever came out at speed. I secure mine to the forward portion of a hiking strap. With the boat lying on its side, it is still easy to access while standing on the in water hull. Either way you still have to chuck it up & over the upper hull.
Robert, I'm only 170 lb, I use the "Big Bag" from Colorado Canvas Bag Co(I think that is the name). That allows me to right a 19' Nacra solo. It is a chore to hoist 80lb of water, & stay balanced & hold the righting line. I use a 3:1 purchase to raise & hold the bag, notice the cam cleat. With this I can hoist the bag,step inside the bag straps, then hike out. This leaves both hands free to hold the righting line,usually I need an elbow out to keep the bag on my back. If the wind is appx 18 mph or better, I don't need the bag, as long as the boat has rotated so the mast is upwind, the extra push on the tramp, combined with hiking will bring it up. My boat has a 30' stick.
I've often thought a drouge that could be deployed from the middle of the hull, on a very short line would help greatly. It would serve to resist drift, creating, in engineering terms, a couple. Anyone ever tried it?
The lighter the wind, the more water I need in the bag. I once purposely flipped it in nearly calm conditions, & with a full bag, I just barely got it to come up.
As Dave mentioned, make sure the mast is SEALED. Even a single litre of water at the far end of the stick is a pretty big moment.
I've sailed the H16 a few times, but never had to right one. Are they that much harder than say a Nacra 5.7?

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
robb5150

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 27, 2013 - 09:03 AM

Hey everybody!!!
Yurdle... Enrique Figueroa and wife Carla Malatrasi won the Hobie 16 North American Championships!!!!

Here's the link: http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/default.asp?Page=9828

Edchris177: I've never sailed a Nacra, any size, so I don't know, but based on my readings, the H 16 is much simpler to sail than the Nacra 5.7.

I was reading some other forum, and a guy had excellent results rigging a H 14 sail in his H 16. It depowered the boat considerably and made it much more controllable when sailing solo, and still was able to fly a hull, he mentioned. That may be the answer, but I have yet to try it. I can buy a used H 14 sail over the web, and the shipping will be much less than shipping the whole H 14. I would not have to mess then with taking the H 16 sail to a sail loft to have it modified, only add the additional slug to the mainsail halyard at the correct point. I would still get a jib furling system and re-cut the jib for additional depowering in case a squall or something got me while sailing to port.

Looks that I'm going to end with a custom boat, which is OK with me.

What do you people think?
davefarmer

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 26, 2002

Last visit: Sep 23, 2019

Posts: 390
Posted: Oct 27, 2013 - 10:51 AM

Ed's bag sounds great, straps would be nice, keeping it behind you while leaning back, pulling on the righting line, is an effort that the straps would help. And at your weight I think this size bag will be needed to bring a 16 up. The 3 to 1 purchase assembly is required.

The 14 main sounds like a reasonable solution for sailing solo in bigger breeze, it has the advantage of no extra material on the boom when reefed. The disadvantage is that the decision on sail size needs to be made before leaving the beach, with reef points on a full size main you have the option of reducing sail if caught out. Is the H14 luff length enough shorter to have the head land below the comptip?

Another option for the furling jib would be to find one off another boat(Nacra 5.2 or 5.6?) that was designed to furl. Might even come with a furling drum. A recut, abandoning the horizontal battens, is ok too. Be nice to have a sailmaker who'd done this for a beachcat before.

My drift sock came from Cabellas, maybe 30 some bucks, and I have a fifteen foot line attached to it, with a carabiner on the line. When over, I tie the bitter end to the fwd crossbeam, and clip the 'biner to the forestay bridle at the lower hull. The sock fills and boat drifts downwind, bows into the wind. Right the boat, get organized, and sail forward over the sock, pull it aboard, untie the line and let it run thru the 'biner, and stow the mess somewhere. Off to more adventure!

You will indeed have a custom boat at the end of this effort, designed for your particular stripe of sailing. We envy your venue!

Dave
bacho

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Registered: Jun 17, 2011

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Posts: 783
Posted: Oct 27, 2013 - 05:07 PM

I may be missing something, but what is wrong with the stock reefing system on the 16? How much wind are we taking about here?

I would buy a boat with a solid mast, or purchase one separately. Use that and reef all you like. If you find that you use the reef often, have the sail modified to fit a bolt rope at the reef point cutting off the rest.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--
robb5150

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 27, 2013 - 07:11 PM

Hey Bacho... thanks for your reply...

Problem is that here we have a limited market of cats. The one I'm considering has a comptip mast and the sail does not have the reefing points because it is a 1994. So far I have not seen and old mast anywhere. The place I was visiting today is the San Juan area Sailing School. There were about 15 Hobie 16's around on trailers or dollies, all privately owned, in good condition. All had comptip masts. The oldest one I think was a 1998 one. I believe that when the comptip was introduced in the mid-late 80's, reefing points were no longer added to the sails.
I know about 2 sail lofts that I can visit to have the reefing points made and reinforced. I want to choose the most cost-effective way (that's the accountant on me thinking loud) without having the sail rip on me a few months later and having to buy a new sail.

Winds here commonly may be in the 12-18 kts range, occasionally up to maybe 24 kts. When its about 20 kts, I will not hit the water in my sailboard 'cause I will be way too overpowered and I would have to rig a smaller sail. I have three sails, but they are mostly for the 10-18 kts range. And I will not buy another one.

If I go out on a cat I want to spend most of the time sailing, not righting the boat every 15 minutes. That's why I'm going through all the information/feedback given.

In some other dimension, because of the lack of a proper boat, the simplest answer would be to forget about buying and sailing a cat... THAT'S NOT ME... which is good.

Edited by robb5150 on Oct 27, 2013 - 09:44 PM.
robpatt

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Posts: 278
Posted: Oct 28, 2013 - 06:58 AM

Hobie 16 all the way with these mods:
- furling jib
- optional solo Hobie 14 mainsail
- sealed mast
- SoloRight for righting.

For righting, make yourself a SoloRight. I have the giant water bag and it DOES work, but it's a major pain to use... trying to keep the boat pointed into the wind... stand on the hull, fill the bag, lift the bag (with the blocks and pulleys), lean out into the bag and keep the bag from slipping to one side or another... then hold it steady as the boat comes up... and once the boat starts coming up, the bag is going down into the water losing it's righting weight.... I mean, YES it works, but for me, it's quite a hassle.
Edchris177

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Posted: Oct 28, 2013 - 10:23 AM

Quoteand once the boat starts coming up, the bag is going down into the water losing it's righting weight.

Therein lies the art of righting. You do need to experiment a bit to figure out where on the righting line to attach the bag. To low, & it goes into the drink, losing effectiveness, as you say.
I find that with the bag hoisted to about the middle of my back, by the time the bag touches the water, the boat is far enough up, that body weight alone will continue it on upwards.
We are going to experiment with some righting poles, no one uses the old windsurfers anymore, so I have two masts to butcher, along with a boom from an Invitation.
The quickest recovery I ever did with the bag was 4 minutes. The GPS showed from 30 clicks to 0 in 5 seconds, & 4 minutes later doing 20 clicks again.
I think the pole would be quicker, & simpler.

Edited by Edchris177 on Oct 28, 2013 - 10:27 AM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
robb5150

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Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 28, 2013 - 11:17 AM

Thanks!
ED; ROBPATT:
I'm definitely going with the furling jib and the 3:1 solo system with the bag, as in the picture posted plus the H14 sail.
I'm searching for examples/videos of a pole system to carry and see if I can buy it or make it myself. The videos I have seen are of boats with daggerboards and the pole goes into the lower hull's daggerboard slot to aid in righting. I don't see that possible on a H16, but then again the H16 was not designed entirely to be sailed solo...

I will definitely post some pictures of this project as I go along the way and when everything is done.

Edited by robb5150 on Oct 28, 2013 - 01:42 PM.
Edchris177

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Posted: Oct 28, 2013 - 06:00 PM

QuoteI'm searching for examples/videos of a pole system to carry and see if I can buy it or make it myself.

I saw this system on 4 different Mysteres here in Canada. Scroll right to the end of the album, there are 4 photos, sorry I don't have them organized into their own album.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=71715
Nacraman57 built a very similiar system, here is his album.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=79873

There is another one somewhere here, using the pole that goes into the dagger trunk. OR try Googling Gary Friesen Solo Right

Edited by Edchris177 on Oct 28, 2013 - 06:00 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
robb5150

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Registered: Jan 11, 2003

Last visit: Nov 08, 2013

Posts: 10
Posted: Oct 29, 2013 - 08:28 AM

OK. I saw them.
I understand that the pole is only for leverage, the actual pull on the hulls is done by the lines attached to the crossmember(s), correct? Is there any risk of breaking the dolphin striker ?

I looked up Googling Gary Friesen Solo Right on Youtube and it shows him solo righting a Hobie 18. The pole he uses goes into the daggerboard slot.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Robert
dennisMe

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Registered: Mar 04, 2010

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Posts: 128
Posted: Oct 31, 2013 - 02:15 PM

You probably won't break it but bending it is possible.
Make sure the attachment point is at the beam and not on the (normally lower) end of the DS (so it won't have much leverage).
I used an old windsurfer mast base to attach mine to a custom alu bracket I bent in a vice.
The pole I made was an old windsurfer mast (the lower 3/4). It was OK but I needed stronger lines (my 3mm dyneema stays snapped). I might put it back in some day just to be on the safe side in case I ever lose weight (a man can dream).
If I do I'll be sure to add some kind of fore-aft stays to prevent me swinging around as the boat comes up.

Regards,
Dennis
MN3

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Posted: Nov 01, 2013 - 07:51 AM

rick whites pole with images - http://www.catsailor.com/…ing-System- 146p8051.htm (he had a video somewhere too)
MN3

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Posted: Nov 01, 2013 - 07:56 AM

I hoist the bag top just above my waist

i get between the waterbag and the hull and lean out (with the line that holds the bag on my shoulder)

this moves / hangs the bag out (and up my shoulder a little)

by the time the bag is hitting the water, the boat mast is at 45* (or more) and i have momentum on my side to finish the last 45*

Quote
QuoteQuote
and once the boat starts coming up, the bag is going down into the water losing it's righting weight.

Therein lies the art of righting. You do need to experiment a bit to figure out where on the righting line to attach the bag. To low, & it goes into the drink, losing effectiveness, as you say.
I find that with the bag hoisted to about the middle of my back, by the time the bag touches the water, the boat is far enough up, that body weight alone will continue it on upwards.