Ed,
The line in your pivmatic looks too big. Shouldn't be larger than 1/4" that looks like 5/16. That being said it dosen`t have to go too far into the cleat to jam solid. That would probably cleat just fine. Those look like the aluminum cleats so you shoudn`t have to replace them.
I would also suggest a very low stretch line for the pulls. That line looks like a regular poly, you may want to step up to something better, Sta Set works well. I just got some VPC line for mine, relatively cheap and is a vectran blend, so almost no stretch. I`ve also heard really good things about Salsa line. APSLTD.com is having a 15% off sale on all line right now, good deal I just bought $300 of high and mid tech line!
I just got a similar adjuster from D Berger and I`m expecing it to fix the helm issues. I can`t wait to see if my castings has a similar set screw!! That would make rake adjustment much easier.
Oh the return shock cord that goes through the tiller is kind of a crappy system. As the shock cord degrades the rudders don`t pop up as well. I changed mine to a dual pull line with a 2:1 purchase uphaul as seen here: http://www.rclandsailing.com/licsa/LICSA98rudderuphaulproject.htm
This REALLY helps you cinch up your rudders! I also just bought some pure elastomer cord from APS and that is supposed to have about twice the return pull of shock cord and it doesn`t degrade. I will give it a try on the pop ups this summer!
D.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Nacra Rudder Rake
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 12:12 AM
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 01:11 AM
Ed,
#1 Hole is for NDR.
#2 CE=Center of Effort, CLR=Center of Later Resistance
#3 You should tighten up the casting with the pivot bolt, it will flex but be careful. This will take up the slop. You should have a large plastic shim between the blade and the casting on each side. You can make one out of a milk jug or order from Murrays. One other thing, the clevis pin that the rudder hold down line goes over, . . . it should have an aluminum tube over it that acts like a roller bearing.
Your Pivmatics (cleats) are not aluminum (factory cleats never are). Look carefully and see if the teeth are worn dull or grooved. If the teeth are worn your line will always slip, creating excessive weather helm. The hold down line should be a high quality double braid or similar. Stretch isn't your problem here. The idea is to have a quality FRESH line that retains in round shape in the cleat, and resists the repeated abrasion on the same spot.
Another thing. Keep an eye on the rivets that connect the tiller arm to the casting. They can get loose and add more slop.
Replace the return bungees when they start to break down, I used 5/16" bungee and loaded it with a fair bit of tension. My opinion is that when everything in rudder system is tuned and functioning as designed, the system works perfectly.
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Philip
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 01:33 AM
Those are the plastic cleats. They are black. The aluminum ones are silver. The pivmatics are starting to get old and the ears, where the ring ding goes thru to hold it to the tiller and what they pivot on when they pop up, will break. They look silver instead of black. They are made from hot stick material.
http://www.murrays.com/archive/32-33.pdf See page 33 Item G and H
I liked Sta-Set X 3/16 inch but it is very hard to find. I tend to down size everything. Not bigger than .25 inch. Marlow Excel Racing 5mm may work if you can find it I think it is being discontinued at least at West Marine. APS has it. I like a stiff line.
Your line needs to be replaced. It looks slick. I would change this line out every other year if it gets much use and stays in the sun.
I do not remember the length but it is about the same a trap line 3.5 feet. Some twig balls on the end help with the pull down.
About the hole, I have never seen one there.
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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 01:44 AM
From the looks of the holes in your tiller arms at the connection to the tiller crossbar, you still have the bolt that is welded to a U shaped piece that connects to the tiller cross bar. This weld will break. Once it breaks on both sides, port and starboard, your tiller crossbar will rotate and will lock the steering. Sucks in a blow. Some zip ties will get you thru the day. See the tiller tie bar upgrade kit next to G and H on the link above.
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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 01:53 AM
I rigged my pull down line 2:1 for a while. The problem is that it takes 2x the force for the pivmatic to kick up. You can shave some off the sides of the pivmatic to change this. I went back to 1:1 for fear of ripping out my stern.
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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 10:10 PM
Thanks for the info. Correct, I do have the plastic pivmatics. I took a toothbrush & cleaned them up for a closer look. They do not appear to be worn, & show no grooves. I thought the old lines were 1/4", just goes to show, look once measure twice, they were in fact to big. I had to drive to Queens & back today to drop off #1 daughter at university. The good thing is there is a West Marine in Kingston, so I picked up some Sta Set 1/4" for new lines. It goes right into the cleat, just below flush. I see what MUMMP means about a solid core. The Sta Set seams to resist flattening, & jams in tightly. The pivmatics look OK, but I think I'll order at least one of the aluminum ones, & keep the old one as a spare, or at least a couple of spare parts for them.
Also thanks for the shim tip. I made a couple of shims from a plastic juice jug, & they eliminated the blade slop, without having to tighten the pivot bolts any. There is still some play due the crossbar connections, but I'm going to order the proper parts to change out the bolts it uses now, as per NACRA55 suggestion.
I'm going to go with bungee cord for uplifts. I will never trailer this boat, except pull out & put in,& that is only from the backyard to the garage in front for winter storage, so I'm not concerned with a positive hard uplock for trailering. I think merely releasing the downlock line & having them flip up will be simpler when approaching shore...my shore is pretty shallow the first 10 feet out.
I saw the Murrays catalog listed 5 1/2 ft of 5/16" bungee for the pull up. I'm thinking that is enough for BOTH sides? MUMMP, do you remember what length you used on each side to get a proper tension? No use trying to re invent the wheel if somebody has a system that works.
I'll check on the roller tubes where the line goes around, I have lots of little pieces of SS tubing to make them if they are missing.
Item last, regarding the hole.
MUMMP pardon my ignorance, but what does NDR stand for? Non destructive ...? Reminds me of the first Airbus course I did years ago on the A-320. We were handed a 23 pg book of acronyms & abbreviations, & told we better start learning them or the manual would make no sense. "The PF shall always confirm with the PNF any changes made on the MCP, & also confirm that the desired change is reflected correctly on the FMA, & the aircraft reacts as expected by crosschecks of the PFD & ND." HUH?? Where would I find them.. "Don't worry son, it'll all make sense after a few months."
edited by: Edchris177, Jan 10, 2010 - 09:19 PM
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 10:39 PM
Ed,
The nacra parts list says you need 4' of line per side for the pull down. Shock cord stretches about 100% so if you have 5 feet you will likely be OK.
The reason i am in favor of more positive kickup is becuase the when you release the pull down line it has a tendancy to recleat itself after you let it go, so if the rudder doesn't pop up the whole way it gets stuck half way up. Then I end up draging the rudders in the sand when I beach. Not a big deal since the pivmatics will kick up if there is a lot of force, but still annoying.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jan 10, 2010 - 11:22 PM
NDR=No Damn Reason . . .
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Philip
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Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 02:10 PM
This happens to me as well. I don't have pivmatics, so I have to watch the rudders closely when coming in to shore. I've thought about doing away with the shock cord and using a second 'up' line that I can cleat, but haven't taken that jump yet. Maybe after another season.
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Rob
OKC
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Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 03:48 PM
I've thought about doing that, I find that I'm so busy pulling up dagger boards and rudders and letting out my sheets as I come in that I would really prefer an automatic pop up. So I am going to try and make it work with this elastomer cord.
If not I will just have to get a better crew who can raise the daggers faster and handle the jib. Not sure how to tell the wife that she's fired though...
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 03:59 PM
It's technique and everything working. If your bungees are strong, when you release the hold down, continue holding for the brief second it takes for the rudder to fully raise. So easy a caveman . . .
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Philip
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Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 04:43 PM
Ok Philip... are you a caveman? do you work for geico? -
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Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 04:47 PM
I look a bit like a caveman... out of control beard and crazy hair. More like a wolfman though, hence the handle. :)
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 05:01 PM
My bungees...well..everything on my rudder system is new or redone in some way. Every rivet, line, gudgeon, etc. The bungees basically balance the rudders when out of the water, they're fairly neutral. When in the water they pull them up as soon as the water nudges the rudders back. Of course if the water isn't flowing past quickly its not that critical to get the rudders up quickly anyway.
So, like I said, I can't just pop the line up, or it'll catch again, and without the pivmatics it'll jam if it hits the sand. I hold it up for about a second then throw the ball on the end of the line towards the rudders so it doesn't catch. I try to come in to shore sitting right by the leeward rudder with both daggers and the windward rudder all up.
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Rob
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Posted: Jul 02, 2010 - 10:10 AM
How did this cord work out I am rebuilding my rudders on a Nacra 5.5 and hate messing with them so if that cord last longer I would love to know. Also questions about the tiller connection upgrade kit. Right now the brackets that connect the tiller to the crossbar are bolted on and after time that bolt gets loose causing the crossbar to swivel or rotate up & down when I pull or push the hiking stick. Getting tired of the Nacra rudder system I miss my H16 rudder system!
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Posted: Jul 02, 2010 - 11:13 AM
so what is the best system on a 5.2 for my rudder to stay up when I am beaching, I agree with Dave that pull down recleats itself half way up.
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Posted: Jul 02, 2010 - 11:54 AM
The elastomer cord workes fine haven't had an issue and it is more durable than shock cord. I think that the tiller upgrade kit is pretty pricy although a lot of people swear by it. Try using a new stainless Nylock nut on your system, that is why I have on mine and it hasn't worked itself loose yet. I have had both the H16 and Nacra systems and in the end I prefer the Nacra. It has less parts, is dead simple and never accidentally unlocks itself.
Rob's advice above is good, hold the rudder line for a second so it doesn't recleat and throw the ball aft so it doesn't recleat. If you have the Pivmatics and it does recleat it isn're really an issue. You also have to remember the the shock cord doesn't hold the board in a locked up position, it just brings it 2/3 of the way up and the board bounces there and moves if it hits something. If you want a more positive locking system you can try this upgrade here:
http://www.radesignz.com/…ing/08/redo/IMG_2598.jpg
but it is more fiddly than I like and more things to worry about as you are beaching.
D.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jul 02, 2010 - 11:55 AM
If you sail in the surf I would think the shockcord setup would be the best method since it self retracts and things can happen fast in the surf I do not want to be pulling up 2 rudders and making sure I seated the rope good enough in a cam cleat while trying not to get broached also you can use it when your heading thru the surf adding a little bit of rudder usage in the shallows to give some steering. Although shockcord wares out and is a hassle to replace thats why I was asking about the pure elastomer cord from APS. -
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Posted: Jul 02, 2010 - 07:39 PM
i try to beach without using the pivomatics at all, hate the idea of smacking the rudder tips all the time and what might happen if they don't come up
releasing the hold lines while coming in was ok but then dragging the boat backwards up the steep foreshore was difficult with the rudders dragging in reverse
so added extra cleats and lines to hold the rudders up, works very well
they have next to no load so you only need the cheap plastic ones. but if you wanted you could buy alloy ones and use them for the hold down cleats. then your old hold downs could be the new hold ups
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Posted: Jul 04, 2010 - 09:49 AM
How does the return bungee system work. Sorry guys but agin I am in the dark. But the rudders are a pain in the butt on the beach.
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Nacra 5.2
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