The annoying questions begin - (Nacra 5.2)
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- Rank: Mate
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 02:16 PM
I beg to differ. Dealing with Dagger boards in the surf stinks plus the Nacra hull volume makes the darned things bob like corks. Hobies were made for the surf. They are tough and cut through the waves. The asymetric hulls dig in right away and give you great control. If I was going to launch in a place where there was a lot of surf, I'd go with a 16. I'm also talking about big short wavelength breakers that break right on the beach and can stand a cat straight up on her stern. Fortunately we don't have them very often. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 02:31 PM
Larry is right about the stand up on stern thing. I flipped bow over stern on Lake Michigan. Luckily the only damage was a broken daggerboard and bruised pride. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 03:40 PM
Unless you weigh a bunch I would be concerned that there is something wrong. I'm #225 and do not have these issues, nor have I seen them or experience them on numerous platforms.
BTW, the 5.8 as well as the N20 are fantastic platforms in the surf, as are all beachcats, IMO.
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Philip
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 04:13 PM
Well that's what is great about online forums...Everybody has their opinions!
Ive launched Hobie16's in surf and Nacra's in surf and cant really tell a big difference. As for the daggers...Dont fiddle with them in the surf...Pull them up pre sand bar coming in and put them down post sandbar going out. No big deal.
In surf we place all of our weight on the front crossbar or even slightly up onto the bow's and have never had any huge problems. We have pointed her straight up in the air before....Normally in these conditions it doesnt matter what your on...Your bows are gonna go up! SURF'S UP!!!!
Timing the sets, good communication between skipper and crew, and a little luck will all help you surf launch your cat whether its a Hobie or a Nacra. If any of these key elements are missing it doesnt matter what kind of boat your on....Your gonna have a hard time. The key for us is really the communication and the crew letting me know when a big one is coming so we can prepare for it or turn into it.
The gt300 and the Tybee500 are both beach launch races and the Nacra's and Tigers both seem to do well. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 04:17 PM
I suspect you are working with surf/wind conditions where you can pick up some momentum before hitting the waves and a fairly board friendly drop off. I've had plenty of success sailing 16's through those conditions. What we are describing is having to shove off the beach, running like a bobsled team, right into a wave with no power, jump forward and pray you get your rudders/boards down and underway before you get knocked back or sideways. It sucks. (I dislocated my shoulder one afternoon trying to do this) Usually we have a NE coming straight on which creates these conditions on my beach. Hobies handle this much better than Nacra's. Those are the days I wish I had a 16 or my old T14. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 04:43 PM
No, not board friendly. It is simply learning to handle the rig. My 5.8 is set up specifically to deal with difficult surf. My side loaders for the daggers function flawlessly, so they will stay exactly where I put them. I also have the boards marked in 4" increments for depth. My rudders have oversized bungees that hold them up way above horizontal, and allow me to put them where they are needed.
A couple of challenges are to learn to sail the boarded boat without your rudders and boards. You should be able to turn without the foils and use only the main and jib to steer, second learn to back up your boat. Learning these skills will make the difficult surf, waves, and long shallow water a manageable experience. Time and experience will prevail, but you must learn to master your rig.
To add, there are certain beach, shore conditions you must evaluate and make the decision to not go, even when on the H16.
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Philip
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 04:53 PM
TurboCat,
I agree and really appreciate your comments on good crew communication. It is usually when successfully getting through the breakers that skipper and crew agree that it is time to pop a beer.
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Philip
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 05:10 PM
That last statement says it all!
Check on the loaders/markings but I do need to replace the rudder bungees with something more robust. This looks like a pain as I had a good look at them when I replaced my ropes and pivmatics this year. And yes you are right, Lake Mi does not have tides and sand bars which makes the skils you describe essential. Something to practice.
Problem on the worst of these days is getting 45 degrees on the wind after driving straight out into the surf. I also need to grind out the filler in the trunk bottoms that the previous racer owner put there to make the boat "faster". It takes too long to drop the boards as first they must flush the beach debris. Cost me a late start in a club race this Saturday extracting pebbles that got wedged when my crew put the boards down too quickly. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 05:24 PM
lately our winds have been coming straight onto shore. I have a different strategy than most in Surf. I like as much boat speed as possible. I feel powering up quickly is essential to breaking the surf. I would rather punch a wave at a bad angle than going slow and turning into irons going over a wave. I have had the best luck with worrying more about momentum than my angle of attack. I leave my rudders down slightly, Fight the weather helm and build as much speed as possible. If you have enough speed u can generally punch the wave and come out victorious! The key (for me) is not pointing up high enough that you get stuck in irons in the surf. Even if its a big one i still try to maintain some speed and not turn totally into it. Im not gonna let it hit me broadside though...Theres a fine line there that can not be easily described on the internet.
Ill leave the surf launch debate to you guys.....Im going home to work on the boat. I will take some pics!
I love the Surf! Am i crazy? yes i am. -
- Rank: Lubber
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 05:30 PM
Excellent discussion guys. I'm learning a lot.
Just to follow up on Wolfman's concerns about what he's stepping on when righting the boat, I wanted to ask if any of you can confirm that you can or do stand on the daggers in order to get more righting moment. I was assured by someone who should know that the daggerboards are engineered to take a lot of load (he used the weight of the boat as an example) and that as a consequence it is perfectly okay for even a 200+ guy to get out on those things when getting the boat back up. He added that of course one wouldn't want to be jumping up and down.
Anybody do this? -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 05:32 PM
You can but I would not. Replacements are VERY expensive. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 05:39 PM
I have in the past, but as Lawrencer said they are expensive so i opted for a murrays waterbag for a fraction of the cost of a new dagger.
Im really leaving now
Have a good one, will post pics tonight or in the morning
edited by: TurboCat, Jul 13, 2009 - 10:40 PM -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 06:27 PM
RLC, I righted my cat by myself last weekend and didn't need to stand on the daggerboards. My mast is really well sealed but I was still surprised at how easy it was to right with a bungee attached to the dolphin striker and thrown over the top hull. I sealed everything (mast top casting and all rivet holes) using a latex tub sealant. Probably should have used a marine caulk but this seems to have worked (of course the mast may have been well sealed before).
The other thing that was told to me (but I haven't tried) was to make a ghetto mast float you can just attach a tetherball (if you have any idea what that is, it's like a basketball with an eyelet on it) to the top plate on the sail. Apparently it bangs around a bit but doesn't damage anything and keeps your mast from sinking (and looks moderately less silly than a hobie bob). I imagine an inflatable dock bumper would work just as well.
As far as hull flex, from what I am understanding from the posts and some of my own research is that Nacras that are pre 1985 are fibreglass only construction and tend to flex on the sides (not the top of the hull). Post 1985 boats are foam sandwich, are much stiffer and don't flex. So I am surmizing that as long as I don't hear any crunching and don't find any localized soft spots I'm likely OK.
Also since I live about as far away from any ocean as you can get I don't have to deal with surf (Winnipeg, Canada). Thank goodness, it sounds like a real pain. :)
One other question I have. I went out for about 5 hours yesterday and came back and emptied what looked like about 2 gallons of water from each hull (probably less). I know that most cats tend to take on some water as they get older. Is this an abnormally large amount? Should I leak test and seal them right now or can I wait until I take the boat apart in the fall?
D.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 07:53 PM
My suggestion would be to go ahead and fix your problem. Use a air supply with little pressure through the plug holes and soapy water. A blow dryer on cool works well.
2 gallons of water is too much over that period of time. I have seen worse but if it were my boat i would go ahead and test it with the soapy water. Leak testing doesnt really take al that long to do.
When i sealed my mast i did the following: Drilled out all rivets, removed head, placed a cooler lid on top of my mast and pressed down on it leaving a mark on the cooler, cut out this shape, apply generous amounts of silicone to the sides and slide down into mast about 1 foot, do the same with a second piece of foam, apply more silicone to sides where it makes contact with mast. Now you have a internal hobie bob. Even if your mast develops a leak in the head the mast is internally sealed and can only take on 1 foot of water (or whatever depth u set the foam). I used a silicone from the autoparts store that looks like a tube of caulk which made it easy to get down in the mast for the final seal. -
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 10:23 PM
It's likely leaking from where the barberhauler eyelets are pulling out and maybe the ports (the hulls themselves were recently filled, sanded and gelcoated). I just find it hard to believe that such a small crack on top of the hulls could leak that much (but I've often been wrong). I'm hoping it wasn't a shoddy fibreglassing job or something more difficult to deal with (which is why I was worried about the give in the hulls).
What would you use to seal the holes and cracks? Marine Silicone, Sika-flex, MarineTex or another type of epoxy?
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jul 13, 2009 - 11:01 PM
i seal around the ports, plugs, etc with 3M 5200.
I would try the soap and see if its obvious. The dagger trunks have been known to leak so dont forget to check in there.
I have had my decks on the boat leak before but if you just got gel coated i doubt its the decks. -
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 10:25 PM
Hey Everyone, Thanks for all your advice. I sealed all the rivets and where the barberhauler eye straps pulled out with 3M 5200. I also replaced the drain plugs (the old ones were pretty decrepit). Went out yesterday (without barberhaulers) for 4 hours and the hulls were almost bone dry! Now I just have to fix the barberhauler system. I still like Turbocats solution and will probably adopt that one. Easier, quicker and less messy than doing the fibreglass work and though bolting required to put them back where they were.
Regards,
Dave
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jul 27, 2009 - 11:01 AM
Great news Dave! Leaking boats are no fun and can limit your ability to sail long distances. Now that its not leaking you can focus on sailing and not sinking!
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Posted: Jul 27, 2009 - 12:37 PM
Yeah, I'm finding this boat is a DREAM compared to our old Hobie 16. Easy to rig, no pitchpoling, lots of bouyancy and it really cooks on a reach!
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Jul 27, 2009 - 08:51 PM
If you do this it will take twice as much force to trip the pivmatic.
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