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Reefing by a smaller sail  Bottom

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  • So, to the earlier question - How the heck do you get the sail back off the hook to lower it? Unless you don't hook it, but that sure would put a bunch of extra stress on the sheave and then you tie off the halyard at the bottom... That would make sense. I have reefing points in my main, but really never tried to figure this part out. Seems like, if reefed this way, it'd be problematic (maybe???) to bend the mast with downhaul. Plus, now your round in your luff is lower on the mast. Does that matter?

    I'm liking the idea of a higher aspect ratio sail more and more for high wind conditions/solo sailing.

    Edit - I re-read and the securing the halyard, what I see is the thing done.



    Edited by charlescarlis on Jan 05, 2021 - 12:21 PM.

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • Quote Seems like, if reefed this way, it'd be problematic (maybe???) to bend the mast with downhaul

    yea, probably but with less sail area you need to flatten the sail has also diminished (ps i never though nor noticed this when i sailed reefed)

    Quote Plus, now your round in your luff is lower on the mast. Does that matter?

    you mean the curve in your luff no longer matches the curve in your mast since it is lower?

    hmmmmm - i am not certain but i ASSUME the curve of the luff (and mast) is pretty consistent above the bottom diamond wire attachment so there shouldn't be a noticeable difference in the sail to mast curve

    QuoteI'm liking the idea of a higher aspect ratio sail more and more for high wind conditions/solo sailing.

    Yea, i prefer to reduce sail area via a smaller sail than reefing. I am happy to have the system on my 6.0 for sure - it was put there encase of pup up summer storms and that risk never goes away here in fl

    While being able to manage my cat in 20-25 is good, and i have gone out in that weather planning to reef - all the other things still suck (mast stepping, sail raising, anchoring, holding onto the boat in the water, etc.) Also you are putting stresses on your "reefed" clew and tack and often they are not as reinforced as your actual clew and tack. I blew out my reefing clew in 30knots... that sucked - i was fortunate to be upwind of the beach and able to downwind home jib only
  • By the way, sailing jib only as a contingency plan for a sudden wind increase might not be a bad idea. I often take the main down to land when wind is above 15 kts or so, because there is no much room for mistakes around the ramp, and the entrance is typically downwind or on a broad reach. In those occasions I’ve been able to point high enough to move upwind, not ideal but it feels safe. Not sure with 30 kts and bigger waves though. But for a boomless boat (n5.5) I can’t figure out how to reef the main anyway.
  • MN3
    Quotepennate

    what is that?
    according to the dictionary it's a muscle?
    i will assume you meant pigtail or something similar?

    also how did you get the ring off the hook?
    from what i have heard, extending the head ring via a pigtail will fight you all the way trying to get it off the hook since when you rotate the mast the ring will also rotate - and almost always require putting the boat on her side to get it off the hook


    damn autocorrect.. basically a pigtail on top of the head. As I said, it was a bit of a pain to unhook, but after a while, I was able to unhook on first attempt.

    --
    Scott

    Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
    Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
    Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly" - gone
    Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
    Nacra 5.0
    Nacra 5.8
    Tornadoes (Reg White)
    --
  • Quotedamn autocorrect.. basically a pigtail on top of the head. As I said, it was a bit of a pain to unhook, but after a while, I was able to unhook on first attempt.

    If the smaller sail is a square top, maybe adding a cord from the right spot of the ring shackle to the first batten could help to keep the ring perpendicular to the sail.



    Edited by Andinista on Jan 05, 2021 - 05:02 PM.
  • Hello,
    Couple of questions to consider.

    If you race, do you want to modify your race sail to reef and then if sailing the reefed sail in high winds, are you losing shape in your precious race sail? After answering these questions, if you do go with a smaller sail you probably don't need a real high end smaller sail (ala Smyth, Calvert, Whirlwind, etc.) and you can pick something up for much less. If you pursue this path, I recommend (with no affiliation to him) Martin of Somerset Sails. He made a smaller sail for my Bimare F18HT as I solo sail and the sail pictured in my signature. Note both were carbon and under $700. (note he also made sails for my previous F24-1 and both my F25Cs).
    Hope this helps,
    James
  • Quote He made a smaller sail for my Bimare F18HT as I solo sail and the sail pictured in my signature. Note both were carbon and under $700

    i just checked out his site/ebay store - https://www.ebay.com/itm/…2c20d:g:9c0AAOSwK7tfRsE9
    $1600 for a dacron hobie 20 tri radial doesn't seem like such a great deal to me -

    it's more than Chip at whirlwind for a pentex one ($1,300.00 - $1,450.00)
    http://www.whirlwindsails…9/H20_Standard_Main.html



    Edited by MN3 on Jan 06, 2021 - 09:59 AM.
  • One more question to end off on this ..I am reading that the sail should reduce by 12% for each reef . I was thinking of going down from P19 sq top mainsail to the P18 which is only 2'(28.72 to 26.75) .Would i see a noticeable difference or look for a smaller sail ?
    Thank you all
  • emmettvOne more question to end off on this ..I am reading that the sail should reduce by 12% for each reef . I was thinking of going down from P19 sq top mainsail to the P18 which is only 2'(28.72 to 26.75) .Would i see a noticeable difference or look for a smaller sail ?
    Thank you all


    i would think so
    when i use my f18 sail vs my regular sail i can handle the puffs much better
  • I'm still trying to wrap my head around reefing. I understand the concept, and it sounds like I should have two levels of reefing - one at about 12%, and the next one at about 24%. That part I'm good on.

    What do you do with the bolt rope that doesn't get fed up the mast? Does it just get wrapped up so it doesn't flap around, and does the forward reef point need a good connection to the downhaul attach point?

    Is it ok just to wrap the reefing line around the boom batten? As you go from the luff to the leech how many grommets should there be? Obviously has to be at least two but seems like you would need more to hold the bottom of the reef to the bottom of the sail. How big do those lines need to be?

    Has anybody made a luff extender, i.e. if you reef at 12% have a 12% long boltrope sewed to a strap or something which attaches to the head of the sail on one side, and the halyard on the other side? I'm not sure if this is exactly what Scott/texastuma was saying.

    Are there any good pictures of reefing setups in the albums here?

    I'd like to add some reefing points to my sail while it is here in the basement.

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17 owner
    --
  • The lower (unused) portion of the sail gets wrapped up and tied as you described. The clew and tack fittings at the reef points definitely need to be reinforced to support the downhaul and mainsheet loads. The reef points in the body of the sail don’t need as much reinforcement since they are just holding the sail roll and not intended to support any load from the sail controls.

    The main issue with reefing on a cat (and the reason why it’s rarely done) is dealing with the main halyard attachment. Most modern cats use some type of hook system to attach the head of the mainsail to the top of the mast. That system really doesn’t lend itself to reefing and relying on the main halyard to support the reefed sail is not a great approach since doing so can lead to the sail slipping down which messes up the downhaul/mainsheet tensions.

    sm
  • Quoteounds like I should have two levels of reefing

    are you planing on crossing an ocean? if so sure - otherwise 1 reef should be enough
    a 12% reduction is going to make a big impact - but if you don't think it's enough - go for 15 or 18%
    that should allow you to sail in pretty heavy air and reduce heeling enough to make it comfortable

    multiple reef points make sense on big non rotating masts that will snap if you must sail but NEED to depower (i.e. MUST get back to port on a big cruiser)

    QuoteWhat do you do with the bolt rope that doesn't get fed up the mast?

    bolt rope is your luff - it is connected to your main - on my setup you roll up the bottom of the sail and use the reef points to secure it

    Quotedoes the forward reef point need a good connection to the downhaul attach point?

    the reef points are not for your downhaul - you need a new downhaul grommet or strope (that is reinforced) to be the new downhaul attachment and one for the clew
    QuoteIs it ok just to wrap the reefing line around the boom batten?

    my setup has 2 patches on the sail. on the patches are very small loops/stropes.
    when i lower the sail to "reefed", attach the downhaul to the new location (tack/grommet) and attach the mainblocks to the new location (clew/grommet) i then roll up the 5' (est) of sail. i tie a micro line from one side of my sail, around the sail roll and tie to the other patch/strope. (2mm dynema? but could be any small line - there is NO force applied to this line, it is simply holding the bottom of my sail that is now rolled up)

    QuoteAs you go from the luff to the leech how many grommets should there be? Obviously has to be at least two but seems like you would need more to hold the bottom of the reef to the bottom of the sail. How big do those lines need to be?

    tack / reef point - reef point / downhaul
    dental floss would work - your just holding the bottom of a rolled up sail


    QuoteHas anybody made a luff extender, i.e. if you reef at 12% have a 12% long boltrope sewed to a strap or something which attaches to the head of the sail on one side, and the halyard on the other side? I'm not sure if this is exactly what Scott/texastuma was saying.

    no offense but that sounds really wrong - if you sew a second bolt rope/ring at the head what stops it from flapping/slamming around when not in use (i guess you could velcro it but .... no)

    pretty sure Scott was saying he adds a second halyard from the ring on the head of the sail via a shackel - cable - to a second ring that is attached to the hook. this is a good idea but you must perfect the art of getting this second ring off the hook - otherwise you are flipping your boat on it's side to get your main down - i can't imagine it works but i trust Scott when he says he did perfect this.

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134411&g2_serialNumber=3

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134405&g2_serialNumber=3

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134406&g2_serialNumber=3

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134407&g2_serialNumber=3



    Edited by MN3 on Feb 04, 2021 - 03:46 PM.
  • Some good points in Joseph Bennett's recent video on a H16.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VizxguKv7XI&t=573s

    --
    Steve
    Nacra Inter 20
    Okemos Michigan
    --
  • schoen.steveSome good points in Joseph Bennett's recent video on a H16.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VizxguKv7XI&t=573s

    why is eating the camera? LOL
  • Thanks all for the responses!

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17 owner
    --
  • Great video. "I don't really do swimming."

    What is still not clear to me is how reefing works with a boomless sail. I'll have to take some pictures to describe what I'm talking about.

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17 owner
    --
  • Quote What is still not clear to me is how reefing works with a boomless sail. I'll have to take some pictures to describe what I'm talking about.

    You would need an extra heavy batten in the "new" bottom of your sail - just like what should be there now

    Why are you so worried about reefing? 98% of beach cats don't

    only cats with with reefing are people doing endurance races where it is required, old h16's that had it originally and custom setups like mine where the owner was paranoid about getting caught in a pop up storm with his very young child being on board (we all used to sail almost every weekend around here). I don' t think the original owner ever needed it -and i used it a few times cause i wanted to try it out. first time was fine, second time a tore out my clew and needed it repaired (was under reinforced)

    i have sailed too much and too old for that crap now. I have sailed reefed -it was fun but beach and anchor handling still sucked, and if you capsize .... your in for a hell of a unfun time

    i can't help but think you would just be better off sailing with a smaller sail plan on med-heavy air days, or stay home and wait for 5-15 knot days
  • I guess the original owner put the fear of going reefless in me. Plus I've seen one of the local cat sailors on my lake reef his main. So maybe I'll not worry about it. It will be a while before I have more than one sail. I'd still like to go on the heavy air days. That was a lot of fun on the little boats. I'd like to have that fun but at a faster speed.

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17 owner
    --

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