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Inter 20 a few questions  Bottom

  • 1. Time to buy a new spinnaker. I know about Glaser, EP, and haven't heard back from Nacra USA/Performance Sails. Anyone have any recommendations or other sources?

    2. I'm thinking of entering a race or two that require propulsion. How much HP is needed to push the boat along at 7 kts in flat water, without being at full throttle. For those of you in the PNW, double-damned has my interest, possibly RTTS too.

    3. I was sailing recently in good breeze downwind, my crew that day literally fell off backwards but held onto the kite sheet, which caused a slow capsize. After letting go, it took her a long time to swim to the boat because of the speed at which the boat was drifting downwind. What is anyone carrying for a drogue to slow drift in a situation like this? The other lesson learned from this is in similar conditions I'll insist on crew either being hooked into the trap wire or having a foot under the hiking strap.
  • I really like Glaser spins, and they are great people to deal with on the phone. I've had a 3 hp, two stroke on a SC20 and it would do 6 kts in flat water, and I have a 3.5 Merc four stroke on an ARC 22, which also tops out at about 6. I wouldn't want to go any higher in hp because of the additional weight of a bigger motor, so I think your hope for 7 kts might be unrealistic. I have a drogue I keep in a dry bag on the tramp of the ARC, which would help in the situation you describe. I deploy it off the bow when capsized to keep the bow into the wind for righting, which puts the mast/sail perpendicular to the wind(which aids in righting), and slows the boat's drift towards shore. My preference for me and crew is to have one foot under the hiking strap (to resist falling backwards) and one foot on it to prevent sliding down the tramp in a sudden hike.
  • I carry a fortress Marine Guardian Anchor
    it's lightweight alum
    i deploy it in a capsize - as Dave said it will point the bows into the wind
  • Thanks Dave and MN3. Motor I was thinking of is the Suzuki 2.5 4-stroke. Sounds like it might be on the small side but workable. It's under 30 lbs. I'll post back here with what I find out about kites.
  • Hey Eric,

    I'm working on kites for the Inter 20. Glaser builds a quality sail and they are faster kites than what you are used to, however to my knowledge they aren't quite up to speed with the latest out of Europe. I'm having a kite built by 1D this November for the Inter 20, as they have the fastest shapes going at the moment (Performance are a close 2nd).
  • Hi Sam,

    Those 1D sails look fantastic from the pictures, and they certainly have the race results to back it up. What you and I are looking for are pretty different, as you want race-winning one design speed at the very top end of the sport, and I want some reasonable compromise between speed, price, and durability. I ordered a kite from Whirlwind which is based on what he's built for F18's but sized for an Inter 20. He's made I20 kites like this before with good results, but only a handful of them It will be flatter than the original EP kites, though I'm sure not as refined as a 1D, or Performance, or a Glaser sail. Price was right and I'll post some pictures after I get it in about 4 weeks.

    If you don't mind sharing, what are you paying for a 1D kite? I'm paying $760 delivered for the Whirlwind sail which includes an off-season discount. That's ridiculously inexpensive compared to other prices I gathered.

    That other boat in your town is still for sale, I wish someone would buy it so I can stop thinking about it.
  • Eric,

    In this case cost and durability are major factors as well. Landenberger and 1D are both on the lower end price wise, roughly $1200 but don't hold me to that as its not set in stone until the kite is shipped!

    The issue is refinement; there is a major performance delta between the latest kites from 2019 and the ones from 2016/17 on the F18 side. The new kites have more forward drive in all conditions, less tendency to heel the boat, much cleaner leech exits and the build quality is quite good IMO with all stiched seams. I think only 2 or 3 lofts worldwide have figured this out, and so far 1D has a clear edge in terms of performance and they are coming in a few hundred less than Glaser. If Glaser had been developing their spinnakers, they would be a more clear cut favorite being an American company and having lots of Inter 20 experience.

    Whirlwind build good sails but don't have near the spinnaker experience as the European lofts or Glaser for that matter. Excellent price though so if it works out it might be an option for some teams on a budget!

    Are you referring to the Betts built big boat still in Annapolis?



    Edited by samc99us on Sep 30, 2019 - 04:33 PM.
  • Yes, was referring to the BBBB as you called it. I suppose that doesn't belong here as it's one hull short of being a proper watercraft ;o)
  • ericrayl

    3. I was sailing recently in good breeze downwind, my crew that day literally fell off backwards but held onto the kite sheet, which caused a slow capsize. After letting go, it took her a long time to swim to the boat because of the speed at which the boat was drifting downwind. What is anyone carrying for a drogue to slow drift in a situation like this? The other lesson learned from this is in similar conditions I'll insist on crew either being hooked into the trap wire or having a foot under the hiking strap.


    I thought that a righting bag could serve that purpose, but the only time that I practiced on a real capsize i noticed that the boat drifted pretty fast anyway, so I wouldn't count on it. I could not compare to swimming speed and it was long ago, so take it just as a subjective opinion.

    If there isn't much help around it might be a safety issue. Eventhough I mostly sail with someone else, I like to be able to right the boat by myself. The bag didn't work very well for me so I have a righting pole now. I heard of a case where one sailor stayed on the capsized boat unable to right it and the other could not catch it, it was on the sea and they drifted away of the coast for a few hours. If water temperature is low, it's no joke.

    I will soon start sailing in a different place, with a more open bay and not a lot of sand beaches to land, so safety is more of an issue. I am considering to add an anchor and get a couple VHF radios.
  • QuoteIf there isn't much help around it might be a safety issue. Eventhough I mostly sail with someone else, I like to be able to right the boat by myself. The bag didn't work very well for me so I have a righting pole now.


    Have you had an occasion to use the righting pole and can you right the boat solo? Do you have any pictures of
    how you set up the pole? I am concerned about being able to right our I20 with a 300 lb crew.

    I had the same thought about using the righting bag as a sea anchor to slow the boat. I had the experience of swimming after our capsized tornado after a trap wire broke and dropped me in the drink. Was tough to catch the boat. Maybe an anchor is the answer.

    Pete

    --
    Pete Knapp
    Schodack landing,NY
    Nacra I20,P18, P16,H16
    --
  • How do you deploy the anchor? As you're going over? I would imagine its after and a sea anchor, yes?

    So many questions, but I can see the importance and will be at least adding a sea anchor to pull me to wind...like the idea of not scrambling to catch up with a boat as well...

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • QuoteHow do you deploy the anchor? As you're going over?

    you deploy the anchor after the capsize
    as you are going over your attention should be on how to go over with out you or crew getting hurt and avoiding solid items like sails, booms, shrouds, etc

    QuoteI had the same thought about using the righting bag as a sea anchor to slow the boat.

    a righting bag is not a sea/drift anchor and i would doubt it would work
    it wont stay open so it wont fill with water and it will have little drag

    sea anchors can be very cheap (under $20) - but to me -i already carry an anchor so i don't see the need for my use. If you are racing and don't want to carry an anchor, a sea anchor/bag makes a lot of sense



    Edited by MN3 on Oct 03, 2019 - 08:36 AM.
  • pknapp66
    Have you had an occasion to use the righting pole and can you right the boat solo? Do you have any pictures of
    how you set up the pole? I am concerned about being able to right our I20 with a 300 lb crew.

    I had the same thought about using the righting bag as a sea anchor to slow the boat. I had the experience of swimming after our capsized tornado after a trap wire broke and dropped me in the drink. Was tough to catch the boat. Maybe an anchor is the answer.

    Pete


    I tested it with near to 0 wind and worked very well. My boat is smaller, a N5.5, but you just need to go further out on the pole. (yes, length matters here ..)
    The first and only real life test was a bit messy because the system was too complex and I struggled to deploy it.
    I simplified it and I'm still waiting for a real capsize, after a few years ..

    No pictures, sorry. Just a diagram. I'll try to explain.

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=132327&g2_serialNumber=3


    In the base of the pole there is a rope loop that goes around the daggerboard to fix that end of the pole (not shown on the diagram)
    Near the other end, there is an eyestrap with a carabiner, to fit a rope going to each beam near the upper hull. There is a knot on that rope to attach the carabiner to, at a fixed position.
    That rope has to work on each side. It is attached to both corners of the rear beam and goest through SS rings on the corners of the front beam (the mentioned knot has to go through those rings, so pulleys won't work). The lenght has to be set up for the desired angle of the pole. When stored, I just roll the excess length around the pole, on the rear of the boat, as in the diagram, and hold it in position with a bungee with a hook. The original design had an automatic retraction system, with a bungee. Too complicated so I took it out.

    The pole will be stored set up on one side, with the carabiner attached to the corresponding knot of the other side. If you capsize to the other side, just unhook the carabiner, pull the rope on the other side and hook it again. The pole is stored under the beams, fixed with bungees whith hooks. It is important to put it near the hull, Initially it was about 5 inches or so away from the hull (it went through the dolphin striker in the front) but the trampoline started to show signs of wear because of the friction. Closer to the hull it doesn't touch the trampoline and there's less movement and pressure above it.

    For the front beam attachment of the ss ring, I didn't add a specific eyestrap. I had an eyestrap already, and a loop of rope around the beam, passing through that eyestrap. The ring goes through that rope. Two benefits: I'm not pulling the eyestrap rivets when using the pole, but the rope around the beam. Second Benefit is that you can attach other things to that rope loop, I do the jam preventer bungee and a towing line for the boat, for instance.
    On the pole, it's important not to rely on eyestraps either, they just keep the attachment point from moving along the pole, but there is a rope around the pole to take the load.

    Note: I don't hang on the pole but sit on it and move back until the boat starts to come out. It helps to have a rightning line deployed too, the lines that hold the pole are pretty thin.
    Here is one of the videos from which I got the idea
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4
    What I didn't like of that one is that it is slow to deploy. Also I wasn't sure of the requiered length so I didn't want it stored across but along the hulls.

    The pole I use is an old carbon fiber windsurf mast. Years ago I tried with an aluminum tube an it broke in half.



    Edited by Andinista on Oct 03, 2019 - 09:09 AM.
  • Here there is some good advice on how to use the righting bag
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UyUZOP94-8
  • AndinistaHere there is some good advice on how to use the righting bag
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UyUZOP94-8

    Pretty good example but this is lacking a few real world items:
    lots of wind - it is a game changer because you must get the bows into the wind
    being in shallow water changes a few things around, esp the fact the boat stays in place a lot more

    everyone should have this skill down and you should self capsize a few times to perfect this skill

    I have successfully righted a 5.5 solo (with a bag) and seen others solo right a 6.0 (with a bag)
    conversely on a few occasions i did it wrong and couldn't get the sail up no matter what and required help - it's all about technique
  • I strongly recommend testing/practicing in different winds BEFORE you need this... preferably with a lee sandbar or support boat for support. If the water is warm and/or you're dressed right, this can be a kinda fun drill, and it makes a HUGE difference in confidence knowing that you can recover THIS boat in THESE conditions. It takes much of the drama out of the picture when you're flopping knowing that you'll be fine. Good gear helps, but as MN3 correctly noted... technique matters as well. Practice helps with technique, as well.

    Since I have a handful of folks who may be crewing, with varying experience, it is real peace of mind to know that I can recover the H18 solo with a bucket, or the Tiger solo with the pole (bucket comes along for backup).

    Randii
  • QuoteSince I have a handful of folks who may be crewing, with varying experience, it is real peace of mind to know that I can recover the H18 solo with a bucket, or the Tiger solo with the pole (bucket comes along for backup).


    It can also happen that your inexperienced crew stays on board and you are the one left behind. So plans b and c are also required, like VHF radios, someone checking on you, knowing who to call, etc.
  • AndinistaIt can also happen that your inexperienced crew stays on board and you are the one left behind. So plans b and c are also required, like VHF radios, someone checking on you, knowing who to call, etc.

    +1
    when i have non sailing crew aboard before we even get the jib out i explain what they should do in a capsize

    and then i teach them how to park the boat incase i somehow fall off
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