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ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 06, 2018 - 10:05 PM

Jonathan
ropewalker
Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Guess I didn't post my response.

I don't have one. I wouldn't single hand a spin boat. You could with the self tacker but then never hoist it.

Jonathan

My original thought was to find a decent F16, since I race only single-handed. At 190lbs, I don't think I'm too heavy.
My wife has no interest in racing, so I don't mind if the boat is slower with 340lbs total on it and we're just out for fun.
I would probably have to work on my tacking some since I wouldn't use the jib when I'm by myself.

Brett

Edited by ropewalker on Jan 07, 2018 - 12:05 AM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 10:14 AM

QuoteMy original thought was to find a decent F16, since I race only single-handed. At 190lbs, I don't think I'm too heavy.
My wife has no interest in racing, so I don't mind if the boat is slower with 340lbs total on it and we're just out for fun.
I would probably have to work on my tacking some since I wouldn't use the jib when I'm by myself.

I feel like I am beating a dead horse here, and I apologize if I am (and this will be the end of it)

I think ya gotta ask:
How much do you race vs non race sailing? - how important is racing to you?
and if you race open class .... do you need to have a formula boat

How much do you sail w your crew? how important is her comfort and rigging complexity in the sailing picture?

I only say this cause - It's easy to get discouraged if the gear is highly technical or hard to use.

I have had gf's tell me to never say the word "spinnaker" again...
I have seen friends who sailed every weekend on a simple design who upgrade to a modern racers and the boat was almost never used - sat for years and then sold

when boats (or anything) becomes more work than fun .... things stop being worth doing.

If you think you want to race a good amount (and may want to race strict class) - and are up for it, go for a Formula cat otherwise in your price range you can also look for many other cats, with newer sails, maybe wings and spins!

Edited by MN3 on Jan 07, 2018 - 11:38 AM.
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 05:16 PM

MN3:
I don't think we have enough of any one type to do a class race. There's probably more H16's here than anything else, but I don't want an H16. I'd like newer style hulls, and the ability to point higher as well as go downwind.
I like the H18, but it doesn't have much power in light air or downwind. I like to go fast, but dial it back when my wife is with me.
I've repaired the leaks, replaced rigging, and it sails well with a good breeze. New sails would be nice.
I don't need a formula boat, but that's what gives me the features I am looking for.
I understand that having a spin adds more complexity, but I think I can leave it off if I don't want to use it.
I do want to beat that J80 next time though.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's participated on this thread. The input so far has been excellent.

Edited by ropewalker on Jan 07, 2018 - 09:31 PM.
MN3

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Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 10:16 AM

My mystere's have everything you have talked about and then some
my 5.5 cost me 3200 - with a very usable main and jib

Edited by MN3 on Jan 08, 2018 - 10:20 AM.
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 01:07 PM

ropewalkerMN3:
I don't think we have enough of any one type to do a class race. There's probably more H16's here than anything else, but I don't want an H16. I'd like newer style hulls, and the ability to point higher as well as go downwind.
I like the H18, but it doesn't have much power in light air or downwind. I like to go fast, but dial it back when my wife is with me.
I've repaired the leaks, replaced rigging, and it sails well with a good breeze. New sails would be nice.
I don't need a formula boat, but that's what gives me the features I am looking for.
I understand that having a spin adds more complexity, but I think I can leave it off if I don't want to use it.
I do want to beat that J80 next time though.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's participated on this thread. The input so far has been excellent.Edited by ropewalker on Jan 07, 2018 - 09:31 PM.

Ropewalker,

On most modern boats-the F16 and F18 for example, you can't leave the spinnaker pole off because it also supports the sheeting for the self tacking jib (something stock older Mysteres don't have, and make single handing much easier). So your option is to leave the spinnaker in the bag, or you can leave it on the beach which saves connecting the sheets and halyards.

My experience is, for the average sailor, a spinnaker boat is best kept mast up at a local club unless you get hooked into the regatta circuit. Otherwise, spending 2 hours rigging from scratch everytime you go sailing is no fun. I can do it in 1hr, but there is always something to tweak/tune/adjust and people to chat with, 2 hours is what it really takes.

The uni-rig F16's have pretty well been proven slower than their sloop rigged counterparts. I can't explain exactly why but I think the rigs, rig placement and sail design on the F16's are all sorted for sailing with the jib. No matter, you can sail with or without, just leave the pole attached. Singlehanding with the spinnaker is a lot of fun btw.

Edited by samc99us on Jan 08, 2018 - 01:08 PM.
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 02:08 PM

MN3My mystere's have everything you have talked about and then some
my 5.5 cost me 3200 - with a very usable main and jibEdited by MN3 on Jan 08, 2018 - 10:20 AM.

I'll look at Mystere.
One local guy has a G-cat, which does point well w/o daggerboards, but it's an 80's boat. I read something about a new F16 from Geissler, but I don't think it got going.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 04:27 PM

ropewalker
MN3My mystere's have everything you have talked about and then some
my 5.5 cost me 3200 - with a very usable main and jibEdited by MN3 on Jan 08, 2018 - 10:20 AM.

I'll look at Mystere.
One local guy has a G-cat, which does point well w/o daggerboards, but it's an 80's boat. I read something about a new F16 from Geissler, but I don't think it got going.

I sail with Hans G and the f16 he built (2) for the worlds
It was not a "typical" f16
was crashed day 1 in the worlds (skippered by a hired pro)
the hope was it would do well and they were going to go back into production ... didn't end that way unfortunately

the second f16 turbo is now sailed by a friend - it is a rocket but like every boat has pros and cons

They hulls are 70's design but work amazingly well in most applications - the design/molds has been used by trimarans, 16, 18, 20,21 catamarans, 36' power-cats, etc

G-cats can be supped up and supper competitive -
our friend beats most brands boat for boat, and gets crazy time since the boat has a very favorable rating

I wasn't really suggesting mystere's to you as much as the point of you don't have to go to a race machine to get everything you "want"

But since you have interest ...
Mystere is an offshoot of the Olympic catamaran (of old days) and are back in business in canada and producing very sexy new boats

Centerboards are very nice to have if you sail in shallows

f16 gcat in foreground
mystere 5.5 in background
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 09, 2018 - 09:05 AM

Great history lesson MN3.

The G-Cat 5.7 was a pretty nice boat when I sailed it a few years ago, powerful, reasonably fast upwind etc. They are nice cruisers. That being said, I assume the F16 models didn't quite perform as advertised? I think running a kite on that hull shape wouldn't prove particularly fast, thrilling perhaps but not fast, and boards help a lot upwind...

Edited by samc99us on Jan 09, 2018 - 09:19 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

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Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jan 09, 2018 - 09:18 AM

samc99usGreat history lesson MN3.

The G-Cat 5.7 was a pretty nice boat when I sailed it a few years ago, powerful, reasonably fast upwind etc. They are nice cruisers. That being said, I assume the F16 models didn't quite perform as advertised? I think running a kite on that hull shape wouldn't prove particularly fast, thrilling perhaps but not fast.

haha - yes that cat is "thrilling" when heated up
It can be a bit twitchy and pitchy

Never will know how it would have performed in real race conditions (with a fleet of pros) as it fouled another boat and was hit - taken out very early / but It is hard to believe that it could be competitive with modern computer aided "everything" -

Interesting G-cat info
https://www.thebeachcats.…ss-catamaran-from-g-cat/

the Power (36) used 2 15hp engines. I think we were close to 28 knots and it felt like we were floating
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 05:48 PM

Is carbon fiber still too expensive to make a mast out of? I don't see many boats with it available.
It seems like that would help quite a bit, with reduced weight aloft. It would certainly be easier on my back when it comes to stepping. I can't leave the boat setup.

Edited by ropewalker on Jan 10, 2018 - 07:36 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
dssaak

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 18, 2005

Last visit: Apr 19, 2024

Posts: 236
Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 10:26 PM

I keep reading this thread with interest. My F16 looks clean and simple rigged main only with minimal rigging time. The guys in my fleet don't think the boat is slow rigged that way.

Just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to fly it. My Tiger I rig everything but can leave the spin in the chute and the jib furler on the forestay. Very manageable solo. Wind under 10 and I fly it all.

Do I wish I had wings ... yes but all boats are a compromise. If I wasn't a solo sailor 95% of the time, I wouldn't have bought the F16 and have the Tiger for sale. If I had more money, I would have bought a C2 rather than the Tiger, etc, etc.

Get the most pros and fewest cons, buy the boat and go sailing. It is a lot more fun than looking for a boat.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 11, 2018 - 12:36 AM

Yeah, looking isn't much fun, especially when most of the interesting boats are clear across the country.
I'm going to ask for lots of pictures before making a trip.
Good to know you're happy with the F16. It seems like a good compromise.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 11, 2018 - 10:36 AM

ropewalkerIs carbon fiber still too expensive to make a mast out of? I don't see many boats with it available.
It seems like that would help quite a bit, with reduced weight aloft. It would certainly be easier on my back when it comes to stepping. I can't leave the boat setup.Edited by ropewalker on Jan 10, 2018 - 07:36 PM.

F18 class rules ban carbon masts. F16 class rules have a minimum tip weight rule in the mast so there is little incentive to go carbon in the mast. In terms of a cost, a blank (as in raw from the anodizer, no fittings, holes etc.) F18 mast section in aluminum is ~$800. A blank A-Cat mast section (similar length and section, less reinforcement, but carbon) is ~$3500. Labor and autoclave time is more expensive than extruder time. Materials cost on the carbon front is higher, probably by about double. The biggest downside to aluminum is finding someone to extrude and anodize the tubes, plus you can't just buy one, you have to buy a whole lot. The F16 class rules wanted to allow homebuilds as a serious option, which is why carbon masts are class legal, as its possible to homebuild a one-off carbon mast to the same minimum weight as the aluminum section and have confidence in the stick. Is it worth the effort? Probably not, and the aluminum rigs have proven themselves at the worlds level in the F16 class. They are also plenty light for solo stepping, though the A-Cat is the ultimate in ease of solo rigging.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jan 11, 2018 - 11:55 AM

QuoteF16 class rules have a minimum tip weight rule in the mast so there is little incentive to go carbon in the mas

Interesting: had to look that one up

1.4.5 The weight that is measured at the mainsail hoist height of a mast lying perfectly horizontal with its
base supported at the bottom edge of the mast section is referred to as the "mast tip weight".
The minimum mast tip weight of a fully fitted mast, excluding standing rigging, is
set at 6.00 kg for reasons of seaworthiness and to guarantee fair racing

Edited by MN3 on Jan 11, 2018 - 11:55 AM.
FloridaRoadie

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jun 04, 2010

Last visit: Mar 14, 2019

Posts: 119
Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 01:48 PM

This question is slightly off topic.
What is the difference between a Hooter, Code0 and Code1 sail? I have watched the M32 and G32 use Code1s up wind and downwind in light air and only use it down wind in moderate to heavy air.

--
Prindle 18 w/ wings, Prindle 16, Prindle 15, current
Hobie 16 in rebuild
2 Hobie 18 past
NACRA 5.2 past

Saint Cloud, Florida
member Lake Eustis Sail Club
http://www.lakeeustissailingclub.org
--
bruiser

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Last visit: Jul 13, 2022

Posts: 52
Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 02:16 PM

Hey mate, I will give you my 2 cents on spinnakers for cats. Hooters, code 0's, reachers or a spinnaker for cats are really different names for the same idea.
Back in the day we had cat sailors who learned that apparent wind speed down wind was much faster than going down wind even with a spinnaker. Early spinnakers were cut by monohull sailors who really did not have a clue about down wind apparent wind. ( I am generalizing, but this is essentially correct).
The first "stock" spinnaker I sailed was on a Hobie 21 when they came out new and where targeting a "pro-circuit" type of event. Even these early spinnakers "designed" for cats were way too full. (Again, sail makers were still thinking in terms of how deep can I go, instead of how fast I can go).
It was then that I learned that a spinnaker that is too full has a self limiting top speed. This is where drag of the shape of the chute prevents a faster speed. This results in one having to sail deeper, however on a cat, this is not necessarily faster.
Over the years, folks experimented with shapes getting less full. Basically, we needed a big down wind jib. Something that would not collapse as forward speed picked up. Hence the development of hooters, reachers, and code 0's .
In light air these big jibs can help going up wind as well. These big jibs do not allow you to point as high, however you can build enough speed to over come the extra distance.
Again with cats, going up wind is about speed not pointing angles. Monohull sailors often tell me cats do not point as well as monohulls. My response is, yes they will. But if you go that high you will sail as slow as a monohull too. The same applies down wind. You can go down wind like a monohull, the only problem is you will go slow like a monohull.

Cheers
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 06:39 PM

This is interesting. Most of the cats I've looked at just say whether they have a spin or not, not which kind or what it's strong points are.
But, I'm also not clear what the difference is between reacher, screacher, hooter, etc.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
bradinjax

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Registered: May 10, 2016

Last visit: Apr 25, 2023

Posts: 225
Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 07:24 PM

Hi Brett and welcome.

The terminology is quite confusing and not standardized at all. One persons "screecher" is anothers "reacher" or "110% Genoa" some may call a "Lapper". I will try to simplify it:

Modern sail plans have 2 head sails. Generally one for working upwind and one for working downwind. The jib sail is hung off the forestay and is used for upwind work and depending on the size and where you sail has many names. The downwind sail in a modern sailplan is either a symmetric or an asymmetric spinnaker. It is hung from the top of the mast or near the top and is often on a longeron on multihull boats. Symmetric spinnakers are rarely seen on modern multihulls so we will ignore them. Some people refer to an asymmetric spinnaker as an A1, A2, A3 etc... All the "code" sails are a mixture of asymmetric spinnakers designed for reaching and running in different conditions:

(from wikipedia)

The code 0 asymmetric is a tight reaching sail, that was developed in the Whitbread Round the World Race by Robert "Hooky" Hook for Paul Cayard's successful EF Language. In that race it replaced the jibs for light upwind work in addition to many off wind angles. The luff is as straight as possible, and the sail is flatter than other asymmetric spinnaker. Due to the flatness of the code 0, it is usually made with a high modulus luff line for supporting strength, and of a heavier, less stretchy fabric than normal for a spinnaker. Due to the tight luff and flat cut, the code 0 can be fitted for roller furling.

Code 1 is a light air reaching sail, where the apparent wind angles at low speeds has a significant effect to create angles of less than 90 degrees.
Code 2 is a medium air running sail, used for apparent wind angles over 90 degrees.
Code 3 is a medium air reaching sail, used for apparent wind angles near 90 degrees.
Code 4 is a heavy air running sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 5 is a heavy air reaching sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 6 is a storm sail, for running in storm conditions.

A lot of people like the Code 0 on multihulls as it is usually on a roller furler therefore can be depowered easily and useful in a very wide range of conditions.

Hope this helps.

Brad
Stiletto 27 CE

Edited by bradinjax on Jan 12, 2018 - 07:36 PM.
ropewalker

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Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 09:26 PM

So, all of these terms (reacher, screacher, hooter, ...) are interchangable?
As stated above by Bruiser, the flatter spin could be used upwind in light air. That sounds like a versatile sail to have.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
bradinjax

Rank: Mate

Registered: May 10, 2016

Last visit: Apr 25, 2023

Posts: 225
Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 10:44 PM

ropewalkerSo, all of these terms (reacher, screacher, hooter, ...) are interchangable?
As stated above by Bruiser, the flatter spin could be used upwind in light air. That sounds like a versatile sail to have.

Well....not interchangeable but more a matter of regional definitions. Here in Florida where I live now a lot of people describe their downwind sail as a "Screacher" which is a combination of a reacher and spinnaker. Other places I lived the same sail would be described as a drifter or just a reacher with the spinnaker part understood. A Hooter was an early attempt at marketing something close to a code 0 but kind of failed in the marketing department and was not quite a code 0 but they were on the right track. Nobody with a modern sailplan has anything called a hooter today.

It is widely regarded that a code 0 is the most versatile asymmetric spinnaker and has rapidly become the go-to headsail for the largest variety of conditions. But higher levels of competition require more sail options. A basic suite of sails for someone seriously competing on a local level would be 2 mains, 2-3 jibs, 3-4 spins. However, a fully sponsored race ready M32 (for example) will have at least 2 full sets of sails and practice sails. So that would be at least 3 mains, 7-9 jibs, 14+ spinnakers. All those sails have names or some designation so everyone knows what sails to use for given conditions. Of course some of those sails would be duplicates as spares and others for specialized conditions.

Sail shapes and uses is a constantly evolving process. As new materials become available and more specialized applications become necessary the nomenclature changes. I am sure somebody somewhere is working hard on something with a new name we will all be talking about very soon.

The manufacturing of sails is more an art form than a science. Two sails that measure exactly the same can have very different properties and those properties will change over time based on maintenance, storage conditions, use, and weather conditions.

Brad
Stiletto 27 CE

Edited by bradinjax on Jan 13, 2018 - 12:33 AM.