Parking my boat in dry storage in Redwood City, I found out that they have a very active F18 group there. How big are the differences between manufacturers? Are the class rules tight enough to make the boats equal?
Thanks,
Bob
Are all F18's created equally?
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 12:38 PM
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 01:06 PM
Can't wait to hear the answer to this one! Let's hear it! -
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 01:58 PM
Yeah, ask the question on Catsailor as well, there's plenty of opinion over there. Overall, I think the newer generations are generally faster than the older boats, differences between mfgrs being less significant than sailor skills.
Dave
Edited by davefarmer on Dec 04, 2014 - 11:59 AM. -
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 02:36 PM
Yes, all F18's that adhere to the class rules are equal, it's only the sailors that make a difference in performance.
Isn't that what class rules are for?
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Damon Linkous
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 03:28 PM
That is the goal, but reality can be different. Just thought I'd ask what people thought. -
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 03:49 PM
Of course the boats are not equal - the only way they would be equal is if they were all the exact same boat, i.e. a one design class.
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Posted: Dec 04, 2014 - 07:22 PM
lasers are equal. but f 18s are a development class. look at how different the hulls designs are from each other. like a cirrus has a really wide flat bottom but a nacra isnt as wide or flat.
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Angelo
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Posted: Dec 05, 2014 - 05:20 AM
Your sailing skills will have the largest impact on your race results, however each F18 model does have its own unique characteristics.
I race a C2, most of my time is spent racing against Infusions. The C2 has flatter hulls compared to the Infusion. At the lowest wind ranges, I believe the Infusion has an advantage. The C2 is difficult to create a smooth water entry and exit in those conditions. At higher wind speeds the C2 becomes easy to drive and may have an advantage in the upper wind range.
The Wildcat and the Capricorn have less bow volume. The do well upwind and on flat water, but can't be pushed as hard downwind.
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Posted: Dec 05, 2014 - 05:58 AM
pretty significant differences between the boats even with the same manu
the capricorn made lots of changes with the C2
moved the beams, boxed / squared up the back of the hulls
changed the profile of the top of the bows, etc -
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Posted: Dec 05, 2014 - 11:49 AM
It's all marketing I tell you, the only reason the newer designs finish at the top of the fleet is because the best sailors jump on them, either because they always sail a new boat or because they are being paid by the manufacture to make it go fast.
These (very) small changes in hull designs between models and versions of models don't come close to overcoming differences in total crew weight and the rock star status of the top skippers and crew.
Put the guys that usually finish at the top in a brand new F18 of an old design and a crew that finishes at the middle of the pack in the "latest and greatest" design and the finishing order will remain the same.
When someone buys a new design for a lot of money the want (have) to believe it helped them, but the reality may be that it's the first time they have had up to date sails and all hardware in perfect condition.
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Damon Linkous
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Posted: Dec 05, 2014 - 03:45 PM
Damon, exactly how much time do you have racing F18 catamarans?
I have to disagree. Trading in an old Tiger for a Phantom may not translate into race and regatta wins, however that doesn't mean the boat isn't faster. Things like wing masts, longboards and stern hull volume all equal greater performance. Some of them are trade off sacrificing speed in some areas for gains in other. There is no denying that the Infusion is a better boat than the Nacra F18, or that the C2 can be pushed harder downwind than the Cap.
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Posted: Dec 07, 2014 - 11:15 AM
I sail a Tiger and C2 on a semi regular basis, so its a good comparison between a 1st generation F18 and one of the more recent ones. While they both conform to the same formula, the biggest changes are these:
- Hull shape (optimized more for planing and more volume up front to help prevent pitchpoles)
- Larger chord wingmast
- More sail area up high (total area the same)
- Higher aspect and longer daggers
- Cleaner running rigging (less chance for tangled lines - a seriously big improvement)
All of these changes result in tradeoffs. I've found the tiger to be better in the short chop as it cuts through the waves rather than pounding through them. Also gives a smoother and quieter ride. Don't forget that Mischa Heemskirk won the Canadian Nationals in 2010 on a borrowed Tiger (link), so comments about the skipper making the biggest difference are spot-on.
If you're considering getting into F18 sailing (which I highly recommend), a Tiger would be a great place to start. They're pretty economical and won't be quite as expensive to fix when things break. Once you're past the steep part of the learning curve, you can sell the boat for a high percent of what you paid and upgrade to your dream boat.
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Jeff R
'88 H18 "Jolly Mon"
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Posted: Dec 08, 2014 - 07:35 AM
this F18s been up for sale quite a while now in San Diego...looks like it's a fast and furious boat to sail. What's the price range for these F18s?
http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/4792421712.html
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Marek
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Posted: Dec 08, 2014 - 07:51 AM
My $0.02:
The Capricorn is a great boat. It seems to be the starting point for 2nd generation F18s and there is only a few small differences between it and the C2 (its successor). This boat is a weapon upwind, and very few would notice the difference downwind where the C2s extra hull volume helps a tad. AHPC has a great reputation for quality build and components. Support in N America is good as well - getting parts is not generally a problem.
It apparently had its bottom redone, so a couple of things I'd inquire about is 1) why did it get redone, and 2) weight. Close to minimum of 130kg is ideal. I wouldn't get stuck on weight though unless your planning to win worlds. Its been sailed in salt water, so corrosion is something to look at as well. Seller mentions rinsing in fresh water, but you can never get all the salt out. Id' also check for stress cracks around dagger wells and side stay anchors. Little ones aren't usually a problem, but bigger ones...
Asking price is not always selling price, but looking at the description of what is included, it looks like a pretty good buy.
Good Luck!
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Jeff R
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Posted: Dec 08, 2014 - 08:53 AM
improvements in sport equipment is measured in mm and smaller...
each little improvement might only equal a 1% improvement but after 100 of them....
when you are a pro, or serious racer, every little thing adds up. some pro racers use low profile rigging to reduce drag and improve aerodynamics, incredibly miniscule advantage, but when 2 sailors of equal ability and conditions... every little advantage counts -
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Posted: Dec 08, 2014 - 04:36 PM
I'm certainly not a serious racer, but being less likely to pitch pole does appeal to me. Not sure that I'm ready for the investment. My limited looking seems to suggest that $10k is a low-end number. -
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Posted: Dec 08, 2014 - 06:14 PM
$10K to 12K may be the bottom of the second gen boats, but I see quite a few Tigers closer to $8k, and as low as $6.5k. Of course price often reflects condition and age of sails. Above advice about starting with a cheaper boat that you're likely to get much of you money out of upon upgrading, seems good.
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Posted: Dec 16, 2014 - 08:54 AM
Of course only a one-design fleet will allow boats to be as equal as possible but for a formula fleet the F18s have done quite well keeping it even.
On the club level any of the F18 versions can be competitive. Conditions of the sails will have a much more significant impact than the particular hull design. Each design has its pros and cons depending on prevailing conditions, crew weight, personal sailing style, etc. and in our club any of the more experienced sailors can be found leading the pack (but some have many years of experience on their particular designs). Some designs might be "easier" to sail fast and could be more forgiving. Its hard to tell since most of us don't rotate through boats very often. I went from a Nacra 20 to a Tiger and hated the Tiger. Just didn't fit my style. I now sail a Capricorn and have not found any conditions where I felt that any other design was faster, but also don't go out in 20+ knots. Around here its usually light /medium air and can be quite choppy and we are right at the minimum crew weight for the big sails.
Now when you are talking about racing at the national and international level, then the sailors will have the ability to eek out every last benefit and the newer design will have benefits over the older ones especially when the wind picks up. The designs are more and more optimized for the high wind locations that attract the big regattas. But as stated in other posts, this creates compromise and evens the playing field for the recreational racers.
You should be able to find a good F18 for under $10K. -
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Posted: Dec 16, 2014 - 12:27 PM
Completely agree with all points in tiger2216's post. For club racing, the boat is a much much smaller variable than skipper skill. For this reason, you really can't go wrong assuming the boat, rig, and sails are in good condition.
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Jeff R
'88 H18 "Jolly Mon"
'10 C2 USA1193
NE IN / SE MI
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