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Nacra 6.0 na will not point to weather  Bottom

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  • I have always thought that my Nacra 6.0na (non spin) would not point to weather as well as other cats, last summer I had opportunity to compare it to a variety of cats and most pointed much higher than mine. Mine is stock except for wings, with the four way jib block control. The sails are class sails. I have gone from almost no mast rake to 18" of mast rake, which has made sailing it much more manageable, but has not made much difference in pointing ability. Most other cats pointed about 5-10 degrees higher than mine. I am not sure if the problem is me, the boat, or both. If you have ideas about this I certainly could use some help. Thanks for your assistance.
  • rpk60,

    Welcome to TheBeachcats.com!

    A winged 6.0na sounds pretty cool, don't see a lot of Nacra wings.

    Have you been out-pointed by another 6.0na? That's the only way you'll know for sure if you are pointing as high as possible.

    Two things that helped me a lot when trying to find the "slot" where you are sailing as high and fast as possible.

    Leech Tell-tails to determine whether the main is pulling as hard as it can vs stalling. If you put a teltale between each batten streaming back from the leech they should all remain streaming, that means power. If they are backwinded or flying up or down you are stalling the main and need to adjust mainsheet, outhaul, downhaul, or traveler position untill they do stream.

    Use a "speedometer", trim the sails for max hard on the wind, then have your crew read the speed while you watch the sail trim . This will help you "see" when the sails are operating at peak efficiency.

    Hopefully some of the rock-stars here or Nacra 6.0na experts will chime in but the above tips work for any sailboat.

    --
    Damon Linkous
    1992 Hobie 18
    Memphis, TN

    How To Create Your Signature

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    --
  • +1 on tell tails. I have 18 of these on my main, I watch and make adjustments every 30 seconds or so.

    Here is a good guide on telltails:

    http://www.thebeachcats.c…telltales?Article66.html

    --
    Jack B
    Hobie 17
    BC, Canada
    --
  • jackb+1 on tell tails. I have 18 of these on my main, I watch and make adjustments every 30 seconds or so.

    Here is a good guide on telltails:

    http://www.thebeachcats.c…telltales?Article66.html


    Thanks for linking to that article, forgot about it, and the pictures were broken.

    has a good illustration of what I meant by "stalling"
    http://www.thebeachcats.com/OnTheWire/westnet/_lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i5/tales02.gif

    --
    Damon Linkous
    1992 Hobie 18
    Memphis, TN

    How To Create Your Signature

    How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

    How To Display Pictures I…he Forums in the forums.
    --
  • rpk60Most other cats pointed about 5-10 degrees higher than mine.

    My first thoughts are about mast rotation and how you use your four-way jib system.
    Both can have a big effect on your ability to point.

    Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the 6.0, but I do sail a Prindle 18-2 which also has a four-way jib system (and the same manufacturer).

    Upwind in light to medium air I keep the jib block about 8" in from the inside edge of the hull. As the wind builds I move it out to about 5" in from the edge. Look up at the spreader bars from the tramp. They should be about 5-6" away from the sail with the leech curving parallel to the main. While I play with this I keep the fore and aft jib traveler part of the 4-way system in the middle position.

    On most cats upwind the mast rotator should point at the side stay (lee shroud).
    Any of this sound like it could apply?

    --
    Sheet In!
    Bob
    ___/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
    Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
    Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
    AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
    (Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
    Arizona, USA
    --
  • +1
    QuoteHave you been out-pointed by another 6.0na? That's the only way you'll know for sure if you are pointing as high as possible.



    weight placement will effect your ability to point
    sail conditions can have huge effects on pointing
    rudder and dagger board shape (and depth) will effect your pointing - when you hit sandy bottoms, you are sanding your foils into a different shape/size



    Edited by MN3 on Dec 18, 2012 - 09:14 AM.
  • Thanks for the tips!

    As far as sailing with another 6.0, I do not believe that I have ever seen another one. I occasionally sail with a 5.5 uni, a5.8, a 5.2, a couple of F18's and an assortment of Hobies. All the Nacras and most of the Hobies outpoint my 6.0. I would think that the 6.0 should point comparably with the other nacras.

    To respond to some of the tips, I'll give a little more background. the boat is a '94, the mainsail is original mylar?? and in good shape, not race quality. I have never retensioned the battons, is this a concern? I have telltales on the luff top and bottom and three in a horizontal row just below the Nacra insignia. The top row on the windward side is a real challenge to fly. I have downhauled, outhauled, sheeted, and adjusted the traveler. Sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't work.

    The jib is a couple seasons old, and crisp. This is the supersized jib with 4way control. There are telltales on the luff at about one and two thirds from the top. Jib blocks for upwind are in near the hiking straps and about centered on the daggerboard. After comparing this to the jib angle on a 5.8 I think it needs to be all the way back and in to get the same angle as the 5.8. This may backwind the main as the slot is already quite narrow. I do not see the telltales showing backwind or stall but I am suspicious that it may still be happening going to weather.

    We are guilty of sitting too far aft. My wife and I are underweight for this boat and until I raked the mast we were constantly fighting a pitchpole. I had to remind her this should be fun...even when it wasn't...she was thinking mutiny. I wish that I had raked the mast years ago, my crew is happy and now the boat IS fun to sail. BTW I raked it from straight up to the maximum recommended for a light crew, 18". It made this a different boat. It was also supposed to improve the way it pointed, the improvement, if any, was minimal. That makes me think the problem may be pilot error.

    The hull alignment, rudders, boards, mast prebend, foil prebend, etc
    are within tolerance.

    Thanks for the tips, It certainly gives me areas to consider and they ha e been helpful. I really appreciate the link to the telltale site. Thanks, Rich
  • Quote the boat is a '94, the mainsail is original mylar?? and in good shape, not race quality.

    mylar degrades over time and most likely is not in as good shape as desired. Is there any flaking or scaling that comes off the main?

    Quote I have never retensioned the battons, is this a concern?
    storing a sail with tight battens is not optimal and will lead to premature death of the batten pockets and maybe the fabric associated with the battens. knowing when to adjust the tension is a good thing as well.

    I have telltales on the luff top and bottom and three in a horizontal row just below the Nacra insignia. The top row on the windward side is a real challenge to fly. I have downhauled, outhauled, sheeted, and adjusted the traveler. Sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't work. [/quote] - tells me your angles aren't correct, my guess is your mast rake is too much (18" sounds extreme to me too). I am sure this makes your boat less pitchy, but also makes it slower (not always bad)

    QuoteThe hull alignment, rudders, boards, mast prebend, foil prebend, etc
    are within tolerance.
    within tolerance doesn't mean it is optimal. rudder alignment is a matter of milometers
  • Surprisingly the main shows no sign of flaking or delaminating, I realize it is old, but we are in the north so it has only a short sailing season. I am keeping my eye out for a replacement. I will have to check the batten tension, I do not think it is very tight. Is there a rule of thumb for setting the tension? When you say "getting the angles right" are you referring to the angle of tension applied to the sail by thet mainsheet and outhaul? Because the main is boomless this might make the problem of angle harder to correct. I also wondered about the amount of rake, maybe I'll try less just to see. I do remember it was always difficult to get the upper windward mainsail telltales flying when the mast was without rake. Maybe I have raked it from one extreme to the other I and bypassed the sweetspot. After I changed the rake I was so pleased with the way it sailed that I left it raked back. Hey, I really appreciate the time and thought that you have put into the suggestions, they will be good checkpoints when spring comes. Meanwhile you have really reminded me that I have some less obvious things to consider. Thanks again!!! Rich
  • QuoteWhen you say "getting the angles right" are you referring to the angle of tension applied to the sail by thet mainsheet and outhaul? Because the main is boomless this might make the problem of angle harder to correct.

    angles on all 3 sides or all your sails (luff, leach, foot)

    all 3 corners of your main are connected to your mast, For an extreme example: if you rake your mast 4' back (assuming you could).. your main foot will point in the air one one end and point to the ground on the other direction...

    your jib on the other hand is only connected to your mast at the head of the sail. extreme rake would change the pocket shape (draft,chord, etc) because only 1 point is changing... the one on your mast - 18", aft


    QuoteMaybe I have raked it from one extreme to the other I and bypassed the sweetspot.

    could be. easy enough to test


    another other item here that hasn't been discussed.
    Technique. Depending on the sailors experience, ... the ability to utilize the apparent wind catamarans create for improved VMG - Races are won by cat sailors who know how to utilize this. were the other cats you are comparing yourself with more seasoned sailors/racers?

    Lastly, can you sail without the wings? ever try?



    Edited by MN3 on Dec 19, 2012 - 05:26 PM.
  • 5 degrees could be not getting your weight forward. Crew at the main beam. Skipper at the dagger board.

    Another 5 could be having your 4 way jib to far out. For going tight upwind, it should be inboard to the point when sheeted tight, the jib is almost touching the spreaders. The block on the wire should be about 3/4 of the way between the hull and the tramp sock, almost to the tramp sock.

    Also your clew traveler on the main needs to be centered or just forward of centered as the wind picks up. Use the bolts as a guide.

    --
    Ron
    Nacra F18
    Reservoir Sailing Assn.
    Brandon, Mississippi
    --
  • QuoteThe jib is a couple seasons old, and crisp. This is the supersized jib with 4way control.


    is this jib bigger than an original?...this could affect windward performance, fast on reaches, but hurts your pointing. most modern cats(and old prindles) have a blade type jib for windward and asymetrical spin for reaching/downwind.

    --
    Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
    bill harris
    hattiesburg, mississippi
    prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
    --
  • I took it as it's a North American jib. The 6.0 Original jib is a small self taker without the 4 way lib system. So the question is it bigger than a North American jib?

    --
    Ron
    Nacra F18
    Reservoir Sailing Assn.
    Brandon, Mississippi
    --
  • Yes, I have sailed without the wings, actually for quite a few years. It doesn't seem to make much difference on pointing. The wings are my attempt to increase my wife's comfort zone.

    The jib is the standard 6.0 N.A. jib I ordered from Elliot Pattison. I called it supersized because it is about 80 square feet. Because the jib extends back behind the front beam I am always conscious of the slot and not backwinding the main. Thanks for being so specific about your rough settings for the prindle 4 way system. I know the N.A. Jib is larger so things won't translate. I probably err on the side of having the blocks not in far enough in an effort to keep the slot open. If we could compare a couple of other 6.0na jib settings for going to weather it would be helpful.

    Thanks again, Rich
  • Here's some stuff from my files of old.

    6.0 NORTH AMERICAN
    Special Report
    Approved by Performance Catamarans, Inc.
    Tuning The 6.0 N.A.
    by Jim Downs 6.0 NA Champion & Mark Biggers
    StartingPoint:Hull Alignment
    Since all NA’s are brand new (out of the box), start with the front crossbeam
    and set the hulls at the stops. Set the rear beam in the saddle & adjust the the
    movable stops to allow the hulls to be aligned. The NA tramp is designed to
    tension only from the rear beam by shimming the stops at the front beam. Set the
    alignment so there is no toe in or out. Since the NA has a front foiler instead
    of the bridle wire, alignment does not change with the rig up.
    Rudder Alignment
    Rudder alignment should be set to 0 or 1/32" toe in to compensate for lash in
    the rudder system. Set the rudders after the tramp is installed and tensioned to
    make sure the hulls are in final position. With the sleek hull shape of the NA
    rudder alignment becomes even more critical than on other boats.
    Daggerboard Tuning
    NA Daggerboards and rudders are the same as those of the 5.8 so careful tuning
    is important to prevent cavitation. Rounding of the leading edge seems to be
    more important than getting the trailing edge sharp. For the trailing edge,
    thinning of the foil from about 1"-2" forward to an edge about 1/16" thick seems
    to work best.
    Mast Set-up
    Set the spreader rake to about a minimum of 2".(Place a straight edge across the
    tips of the spreaders and measure to the back edge of the mast) With the double
    diamond wire system of the NA mast, it is important to use a wire tension gage
    to set the tension of the diamond wires. Start with the outer diamonds and set
    tension to about 500 lb. this should result in the mast being pre-bent about
    13/4". Then set the inner diamonds to be just tight but not enough to increase
    pre-bend.

    Bridle Foil
    The front foil should be tensioned to pre bend about 1-1/2" new and not allowed
    to relax to less than 1" of pre bend after the rigging has settled. This has no
    effect on speed and is strictly a strength or durabilty requirement.
    Rig Set-up
    We tried several positions of mast rake and found that about 15" to 18" of rake
    seems to be fast upwind without creating excessive rudder load or de-powering
    the boat. We measure rake by pulling the trapeze harness hook down and moving it
    to the point where it just touches the top of the deck forward and aft of the
    front beam. Then measure the distance from the center of these two points to the
    front of the front beam. Shroud tension shouldn’t be too tight to allow full
    rotation of the mast downwind.
    Downhaul System
    The stock downhaul system [8 to 1] is adequate for the stronger crews. The leach
    of the main will open up readily with the application of downhaul. Because it
    works so well it becomes the sole method of controlling the main on wind gusts.
    In Conclusion
    The 6.0 NA is a high tech around the buoys racer that must be properly tuned to
    be competitive (with other NA’s). I believe we have only begun to tap the speed
    potential of this great new boat. If you have any questions or comments please
    feel free to contact Mark Biggers 517-692-9430 [evenings] Note: Performance
    Catamaran, Inc has ask us to condense the original tuning guide to this
    abbreviated form. Names & serial numbers of the boats are bring forward to P.C
    to update their class mailing list.
    Mast Setup for the Big Guys
    Spreaders should be set to 11/2" of rake. tighten outer diamonds for 11/4" of
    pre-bend. tighten inter-diamond wire just short of inducing anymore
    pre-bend.Note: under no circumstance let pre-bend to go under 1" Please
    note; Final measurement of the pre-bend, should be made with mast lying on its
    side! mast rake— (most accurate) level beams fore-aft, hang a weight from the
    main halyard weight should hit the tramp appx. 15 to 18" aft of the inside (
    tramp side ) of main beam.
    Do not over-rotate mast down wind in heavy air!
    Carbon mast, so far this seem to be what works. The tube has all the same
    fittings in the same place as the aluminum section. Follow the same guide lines.

    Update Carbon spreader rake to 2.75" with prebend approaching 2.0" with
    inter-wires loose.
    Heavy Air: do’s & don’ts
    Don’t over-tighten shrouds.. adds to mast compression
    DO release jib in a puff before dumping main
    Don’t remove spreader rake!
    Don’t over-rotate mast.

    --
    Ron
    Nacra F18
    Reservoir Sailing Assn.
    Brandon, Mississippi
    --
  • This may be some of the same.

    Tuning the Nacra 6.0NA



    By JAMIE DIAMOND
    Where to start? We set up the boat according to Mark Biggers in the spring of
    1994 when we bought the thing and essentially haven't changed any of the rigging
    since then. We had a successful Nacra Mid-Winters this year, so Mary Wells asked
    me to write an article on tuning the 6.0. Well, I'm way late, but here it is.

    Setting up the boat
    The platform: The hulls, the boards, the rudders are all perfectly parallel with
    the mast down (no rig tension). The forward beam has about 1/2 inch of pre-bend.
    The bridle foil has more.
    We used self-stick Velcro to pad the daggerboard trunks so that the daggerboard
    don't slop around in the trunks.

    The mast
    About 2 inches of pre-bend, with about 2 inches of spreader rake (distance
    between a ruler placed across both spreaders and the luff track on the mast).
    My outer diamonds on the mast are under about 700 lbs. tension. The inner
    diamonds are just snugged up but not adding any more mast bend.
    I copied my mast rake from Andy Zitkus at Bay Week a couple of years ago. I
    don't know what it is; I only know I use the 2nd hole from the top of the
    chainplate for the forestay and the 4th hole from the top of the chainplates on
    the sides for the shrouds.

    I believe having all your wet stuff lined up straight is important. I'm not so
    sure about the pre-bend in the mast, tautness of the rig, and mast rake.
    However, I do believe that to be successful, you must set this stuff, and then
    leave it alone. Sailing a boat fast requires a lot of helm "feel." Unless you
    are Randy Smyth, Kirk Newkirk, or Carlton Tucker, you won't get there very fast
    if you keep changing the boat around. Set the boat up the same way each time and
    start practicing, developing that helm-feel you need to be fast.

    Sailing the boat
    Mainsail
    You've got more controls on the mainsail than I know what to do with --
    downhaul, mainsheet, clew traveler, and main traveler.

    The downhaul
    Before you go out on the water, you need to find the "power-position." This is
    the amount of downhaul where you have maximum pocket in your mainsail. Many
    people think they get maximum pocket with the downhaul completely eased. Not
    true!
    Get the boat rigged up. Lie on your back on the center of the tramp with your
    head near the base of the mast. Sheet the main until the boat is trimmed for
    going to weather. Now start applying downhaul. As you tighten the downhaul, you
    will see the pocket first increase, then decrease again as you pass the
    "power-position." Go back and forth a few times past the point until you are
    sure where it is. Then mark your mast where the pulley plate of your mainsail is
    at the power-position. This is where you will downhaul for upwind until you are
    overpowered. Once you are overpowered you will downhaul beyond this point. This
    is also where you will set the downhaul for downwind. You will never want to
    sail the boat with the downhaul looser than the power-position.

    The clew traveler
    Upwind I set my clew traveler with its center 1 to 2 inches behind the bolt in
    the center of the clew traveler track. Downwind, if it's a long leg or light
    air, I'll blow off the clew traveler letting it go all the way to the back. If
    it's cranked up, or the legs of the course are short, I'll ignore this control
    -- just set it for upwind and forget it.

    The main traveler
    Upwind I almost always center it. I deal with the big wind with the downhaul.
    Off the wind I usually ease the main traveler to somewhere near the hiking
    straps. This one is tough to call and varies a lot with wind conditions. Finding
    the sweet spot where the main traveler and mainsheet are both set right for
    wild-thinging downwind is tough. And it varies with the wind, the waves, and the
    crew weight.

    The mainsheet
    I usually get to sail in flat water. So going to weather we sheet the main hard,
    really hard. I want almost zero twist. If it's double-trapped or more, the main
    is usually sheeted as hard as I physically can, both hands. If we're in waves, I
    back off some. When the boat is pitching, you want some twist in the main. It
    helps keep the top half of the main from stalling on the backward swing of the
    pitch.
    On the downwind leg, travel out, but probably sheet harder than you are. You
    need some firmness in the leech to do the wild thing. Play with different sheet
    and traveler combinations until the boat jumps. Then look around at the waves
    and wind speed. Remember it for the next time.

    Jib
    Sheet it harder than you think. If there's any sizable breeze, I put the jib
    cars all the way back, and fairly far out. The stronger my foredeck crew is, the
    farther out they go. At MidWinters, with Mike Teets up front, we ran the jib
    cars all the way back, and the jib block was about one hand width from the hull.
    This lets the crew sheet really, really hard without closing up the slot. Give
    it a fair bit of luff tension, too. The flatter the luff, the higher you can
    point, but the less power you have, and the harder it is to keep the boat in the
    groove. Find a happy medium.
    On the downwind I set the barber haulers all the way out and sheet the jib
    fairly firm but not hard, maybe a foot to foot and a half between the barber
    hauler and the jib clew plate. If you've got the luff tension cranked up,
    consider backing it off. Ignore the luff tension on the downwind if it's a short
    course and things are busy.

    Mast rotator
    Sometimes I use it upwind, sometimes I don't. No real method to the madness.
    Downwind, use it. Rotate the mast 90 degrees. If it's really windy, or you're on
    a short course, this is another control to ignore. You'll gain more distance in
    the time you're sailing the boat instead of pulling the strings than you will
    lose in boat speed.

    Daggerboards
    All the way down upwind, halfway up downwind. If you're on a short course, put
    them down and ignore them. Never sail the boat with them all the way up. And the
    ligher the wind, the more daggerboard you need. Just the reverse of what a lot
    of folks think.

    Crew is key
    The most overlooked key to winning is the crew. I believe this is true on any
    boat. My key to speed at Mid-Winters was Mike Teets. He ran everything on the
    boat from the daggerboards forward. And he called all the marks, laylines,
    crosses, and ducks. My sole job on the back of the boat was to make it go fast.
    I played the main, steered the boat, and got my head out of the boat, looking at
    the wind and waves out in front. I never had to look over my shoulder for a
    mark, or behind to see what the competition was doing. That was Mike's job. By
    concentrating solely on boat speed, I had a boat-speed advantage. And a
    boat-speed advantage made Mike's job of calling the tactics easier.
    Try it next regatta -- when your crew says to tack, don't check their work, just
    do it. When they realize that it's all up to them, they will quickly grow into
    the task.
    Good luck, and sail fast.

    --
    Ron
    Nacra F18
    Reservoir Sailing Assn.
    Brandon, Mississippi
    --
  • The two long posts above are not written by me but are files I got back in 1998.

    The post above where I talked about the 4 way jib and clew settings are what 6.0 NA sailors that I new used and told me to use on the 5.5 SL.

    Good Luck

    --
    Ron
    Nacra F18
    Reservoir Sailing Assn.
    Brandon, Mississippi
    --
  • Thanks for all the research that you have done for me. Those articles cover just about everything that is adjustable! These articles and telltale resources will give me some things to go over on the cold winters nights.

    I do see things of interest; the mast rake in the second article is given as the number of holes down on the chainplates, 2 on the forestay and 4 on the shrouds. That was where it was when we bought the boat and remained unchanged until last summer. In the first article it recommends 15-18" of rake. We are now at the max. I am considering backing it off to see how it sails. Lots of things to consider. Thanks again for the tips and assistance, I really appreciate your response. Rich
  • Move forward get the bow down in the water a little mare than half way. Light wind rake the mast forward, heavier wind rake it back.
  • Thanks, I know we usually do not sit that far forward. When you rake it back is there a set rake that works for you? With the beams leveled the main halyard hits the tramp about 18" behind the front beam. Is this too much rake? Also, what kind of setting works with the 4 way jib blocks for upwind?

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