Most of the people I take out on my boat are under 130lbs each, and even with 3 people aboard we have plenty of power to triple trap on the N20. I installed the 3rd trap today, I have a couple questions. How much weight can I put on the wires before I am asking for trouble? I have a 550lb limit in my mind.
Related question, what are the rules as far as racing with 3 aboard? I am not looking for an advantage here, there is just some situations where I would like to do it. This would be more about introducing a new person to racing more than anything else.
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Triple trapping
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Posted: Feb 26, 2012 - 02:33 PM
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Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 06:56 AM
You have to see if carbon mast will hold it .. As for racing you wont get penalized if you are racing with portsmouth numbers you should be getting a heavy 3 handicap which actually helps you out... I race alot on I 20 and race my f-17 .. I wouldn't want three people on the boat but then again that's my preference... You need to learn how to depower the boat ... A lot has to do with mast rotation, down haul and some traveler.. The boat I race on we both are about 175 pounds which is lite for the I 20 boat ... We don't have any problems until it starts blowing over 20 knots ... -
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Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 07:49 AM
i have seen alum masts fold in 1/2 because there was to much weight (3 men) on a boat in pretty heavy air. just more force than designed for.
I have recently seen a 6meter boat with all the bulkheads torqued (ripped out of place) and our guess is it was sailed very hard with 2 on the wire and one still on the wing in heavy air / waves
I read that every 7mph increase doubles the stress on your rig (and boat)
I have been on a g-cat, 2 onboard, single trapped (i was hiking hard) ... and the rudder simply broke in 1/2 and was gone in a heartbeat (granted not a new rudder)...
when you exceed the designed weight limits / strengths ... you risk your gear -
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Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 10:33 AM
This isn't about having too much power, its just about having more fun.I am not talking 3 200lb men on the wire, but 3 150 lb people. That's only 450lbs, I am not gonna be stupid about it.
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Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 11:33 AM
Hey Bacho,
The rig can handle the weight. It is sailed a lot with teams (including myself at times) over 500#. As for your second question, you can read about the rules at US Sailing, but don't expect to show up with 3 traps and 3 on board and expect to get away with it. The above statement regarding not getting penalized would not apply with 3 on the boat and 3 traps. In addition, you will take a TR hit (0.981). Add to that the modifier frowns on using the H3 allowance anyway(it applies to 2 up only). The boat is a two up platform and if you go three you will take an additional hit. The hit is at the discretion of the PRO. If it is blowing and there are reaching legs (i.e. distance race) you will get protested. Don't expect to show up at a race that has a N20 class (five boats) with 3 on board. Now for recreational sailing we have done it a lot down in the Gulf and it can be fun. For those reasons by all means do it.
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Philip
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 05:32 AM
I was talking about Portsmouth racing so he could race with the correct modifier doesn't specify people in Portsmouth racing. Thats why there is a modifier for added traps , beam, sail, mast and every other thing you can add to a boat.. When Portsmouth racing you don't have to follow class rules, but expect to take a penalty for not following the class rules ... I was not talking about 1 design racing .... I could show up with none class legal sails beamed out and three traps on a I20 for Portsmouth racing, there would be the appropriate modifiers for it .... We have a guy with a Hobie 17, with a large spinnaker none class legal mainsail and he is able to race with the appropriate modifiers ... Again not for class racing ....
Edited by George1067 on Feb 28, 2012 - 06:19 AM. -
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 07:41 AM
Phil? -
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 07:52 AM
LOL yes we had Phil .... -
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 07:57 AM
Hello?? My response spoke specifically and directly about Portsmouth. Everything you just posted is pretty elementary. No, we all understand it's not one design racing and you missed the point. Yes, we are talking Portsmouth racing.
No, the modifier doesn't specify it , the DPN Class designation does. That's covered in the original base rating. You apply the base rating first and then the modifier.
The US Sailing Portsmouth rules state:
"All ratings for ONE-DESIGN and OPEN CLASS racing are BASED on boats being equipped with class approved sails and other class approved equipment. Each competitor shall declare ALL non class approved sails and equipment and shall comply with minimum total crew weight and NUMBER OF CREW."
Simply not true.
Good Morning Andrew
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Philip
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 09:36 AM
I meant to say you will for some reason it auto corrected to wont . As far as what you are reading guess you didn't find this table for modifiers
MH Modification Factors
(D-PN ) modified = (D-PN)(MF)1(MF)2
(HC) modified = (HC)(MF)1(MF)2
All ratings for ONE-DESIGN and OPEN CLASS racing are based on boats being equipped with class approved sails and other class approved equipment. Each competitor shall declare ALL non class approved sails and equipment and shall comply with minimum total crew weight and number of crew. Ratings do not include spinnaker unless specified in tables.
It is expected that boats with underweight crews will add the prescribed weight to meet class rules and that skippers and crews usually compete in the classes in which they sail the best for their combined weight and local sailing conditions. Ratings do not include spinnaker or carbon equipment unless indicated in the Tables or as allowed under one-design class rules.
For clarification:
1) For class normally without spinnaker carrying a second one, apply modification factor for each.
2) For class normally with spinnaker carrying one or more additional headsails, apply modification factor for
each.
3) Also note the Other penalty for other deviations not identified below.
US SAILING CODE
DESCRIPTION
D-PN Modification Factor (MF)
for Beaufort Range
0-1 2-3 4 5-9
TR For carrying trapezes above class allowance, per trapeze 0.981 1.000 0.988 0.981 0.963
US Class normally with small jib*, sailing uni without jib 1.026 1.036 1.030 1.026 1.026
UL Class normally with large jib*, sailing uni without jib 1.076 1.075 1.083 1.076 1.060
JS Class normally without jib, carrying small jib* 0.975 0.965 0.971 0.975 0.975
JL Class normally without jib, carrying large jib* 0.941 0.940 0.933 0.929 0.938
SP Class normally without spinnaker, genoa, reacher, hooter or wire/rope luff headsail attached to a pole, carrying one or more 0.960 0.953 0.958 0.960 0.960
SN Class normally with spinnaker, genoa, reacher, hooter or wire/rope luff headsail attached to a pole, not equipped with one 1.020 1.030 1.025 1.020 1.010
MN For non-class legal mainsail, of same sail area or less than class legal mainsail (formerly square top adjustment) 0.995 0.990 0.990 0.995 0.995
ML For non-class legal mainsail, of greater sail area* than standard main 0.980 0.969 0.975 0.980 0.985
JU For larger than standard jib 0.995 0.984 0.990 0.995 1.000
MT For taller mast than standard 0.995 0.990 0.990 0.995 0.995
BM For wider than standard beam 0.995 1.005 1.000 0.990 0.984
UNDERWEIGHT PENALTIES
Penalties apply for underweight crews who do not add weights to meet class rules
L1 For total crew weight less than class min. crew wt. but at least 90% of class min. crew wt. 0.991 0.990 0.991 0.996 0.999
L2 For total crew weight less than 90% of class min. crew wt. but at least 80% of class min. crew wt. 0.983 0.980 0.983 0.991 0.997
L3 For total crew weight less than 80% of class min. crew wt. but at least 70% of class min. crew wt. 0.974 0.970 0.974 0.987 0.996
L4 For total crew weight less than 70% of class min. crew wt. or for singlehanding a sloop
not having class min. crew weights. 0.970 0.965 0.970 0.985 0.995
OPTIONAL ALLOWANCES
Optional allowances for heavy crew weight are designedfor local fleet racing
and not recommended to be applied at divisional levels, regional levels or above
Do not add weight in order to become eligible for H1, H2 or H3 weight allowances
H1 For total crew weight at least 110% of class min. crew wt. but less than 120% of class min. crew wt. 1.003 1.010 1.007 1.003 1.000
H2 For total crew weight at least 120% of class min. crew wt. but less than 130% of class min. crew wt. 1.006 1.020 1.013 1.006 1.000
H3 For total crew weight more than 130% of class min. crew wt. 1.010 1.030 1.020 1.010 1.000
Other
Any other deviations from standard class configurations, including the addition of wings, can be assessed a penalty of at least 0.995. Multiple deviations may incur multiple penalties. Penalties may be greater than 0.995. Please identify any such modifications and penalties assigned and include with results reported to the handicap committee and Portsmouth Numbers Committee.
*Definitions
Same Sail Area: within 5% of Calculated Approximate Sail Area
Greater Sail Area: 5% of larger difference in Calculated Approximate Sail Area
Small jibbed boats: boats with standard jib tacked to bridal wires and hoisted to or below mast hounds
Large jibbed boats: boats with foils or jibs with tack attached to the deck or from cross beam and/or head attached above mast hounds
We strive to improve the validity of US SAILING's Portsmouth Numbers for all boats.
You and your club/fleet can help this effort by forwarding your race results annually by November 1
to US SAILING, Portsmouth Numbers Committee, P O Box 1260, Portsmouth, RI 02871,
See the part of none legal class main sail adjustment ?? I sailed a heavily modified Stiletto 23 trust me I know about DPN numbers changing .. My number got almost as low as a f-18 64.5 ... Just ask Phil LOL... You also left out the part of Portsmouth number changing do to Beaufort wind speed .. Common scenes would tell you base then correction and then Beaufort scale correction .... I have been Portsmouth racing for over 25 years .... Wanted to make it simple for guy who obviously didn't understand PTS numbers but you seemed to make it a pissing contest instead ... Sorry for the the miss type of will and wont on my original post .. I wont let it happen again -
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 11:14 AM
George,
Don't be a d*ck. Beaufort range and non class main sail adjustments have nothing to do with your rant. You're babbling about what? Missed modifier formulas? Are you kidding? It's all elementary handicap 101. I didn't need to brief the viewer on the whole US Sailing Portsmouth HC system. You're babbling about wind speed, non-class sails, formulas and for what? And I'm certainly not going to waste my time selling you on my resume.
The point was you stated that 3 up won't hurt Bacho in his rating, but would help him. While you are LOL, justify that with facts. I politely and indirectly clarified how the HC ratings will adjust for 3 up. (No pissing). You chose to argue that point with another inaccurate statement, that I, again, this time more directly, had to clarify for you. I also made points to situations that Bacho would likely encounter in his sailing neck of the wood, which is also mine (i.e. Hartwell, Gulf coast, etc). NO pissing contest here, but piss my way and expect the same, but with a heavier shower.
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Philip
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 12:12 PM
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 12:30 PM
Tp paraphrase Shakespheare "Much ado about nothing"
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 12:54 PM
Hummp,
... . You ranted about how he will not be able to race with three traps and get away with it down here read your post... You made the pore guy think he wont be able to race.
.... You took his post and basically told him your screwed don't come here and race we will protest you .. I just wanted to let some one know who was probably unfamiliar with Portsmouth racing that he can put on three traps and race.. Were in the modifier does it say three up, if you know your Portsmouth rating so well. He would get penalized for trap -.981 faster .. He would have a slower rating for h3 factor for his weight +1.010 , with three people, so giving negative for trap and the plus for H3, he is going to get a slower rating buy .029. So he will end with a slower rating instead of a faster rating .So basically there is no diffidence with him having a triple trap .. Only way being is if he is under weight or at class weight , he would he have a faster rating .. May be you have another Portsmouth rating system I don't know about ?? That is why it seems you needed the the modifier portion of the Multi hull tables. I thought may be you were on the mono hull page . I was never trying to give you my resume please.. ... As far as you implying a heavier peeing shower, I wouldn't know about that sort of thing frankly sounds kinda weird to me ...
Edited by George1067 on Feb 28, 2012 - 02:04 PM. -
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 01:32 PM
This sums up my reasons for wanting the 3rd trap. In December I had Tyler and my little sister on my boat, had we had enough wind I think it would have been pretty fun to triple trap.
Racing 3 up was just a thought, for example last November I was at a regatta with a bunch of A-cats and one Hobie 18. I was put in the open class which was just me vs the 18. I had a cousin who really wanted to come sailing that weekend with us, the regatta was really laid back and probably wouldn't have cared if I put him aboard. I just wanted the official word.
My 3rd trap is removable in less than 5 minutes, or I could just tape a dog bone to disable it. I am by no means stuck with it. Haha.
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 01:37 PM
You guys are cracking me up.
Both of you please find the paragraph key before I go blind.
To answer the questions in the original post (OP)
You should ask a dealer, maybe it's in the technical specs for the boat, but I suspect your 550 pounds would be ok since it's pretty normal for two grown men to weigh that. Also consider that, in the realm of a 20 foot beachcat with that kind of power, 550 pounds isn't that much compared to the forces involved. Disclaimer: I know nothing! If you break your $11,000 mast with 550 pounds you are on your own!
There is no clear answer to this question, the only way you will know how this will be handled in a particular regatta is to speak to the PRO (Primary Race Officer) and the fellow competitors. The answer might vary based on the level of competition, nature of the three crew, (one of them is a kid?), type of course (three would probably be a handicap on triangles but could be an advantage on high wind distance races).
The only thing I'll comment on about the Portsmouth info is that I have never seen a race committee or PRO allow the H1-3 overweight modification and I have tried to get it used since I'm always overweight unless I'm solo, and then I get penalized for that, even though it's a huge disadvantage to single hand a two hand boat when racing around the buoys... Don't get me started on ratings I'm about to go off on a rant of my own!
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 05:08 PM
I have never had a problem triple trapping on my boat. The wing weight limit on my boat is 550 lbs. So I usually put a light weight on the third trap right over the forward leg with the heavy weight sailors over the aft leg.
I have already rebuilt my wing sockets and made them incredibly strong, so that is a non issue........
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Bill 404 21SE
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 05:16 PM
We use the weight mods light and heavy in our club at every race .. We have over 200 members 110 boats .. We even had to use the triple trap heavy mod on a Hobie 21, so the scenario is not unheard of .. We run races every other weekends and there is every type cat that runs the spectrum.. Glad we could provide some entertainment for you, is that whats it is all about enjoy the ride Thanks
:lol
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 05:40 PM
What club is that? Sounds like I need to be there if they are "heavy friendly"
If that wasn't a good hint, please fill out your signature to make things easier, instructions under my signature. You can have a cool avatar too.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 06:59 PM
We use the heavy and light modifiers accordingly ,, We have over 200 members and 110 boats .. We have 14 races in our short season and usually have 20 to 25 boats that makes each race , with more than half being Spinnaker boats . Usually four f-18 four f-17 and three I-20 and collection of almost every Hobie made . We actually did have the h3 and tipple trap modifiers on a Hobie 21 in one of our distance races .. I am Glad we could entertain you and would like to also take the time and Thank you for the site ..
