I have a friend who rerigged a monohull. He has a bunch of odds & ends of decent line, mostly short pieces. I can have a few of them for free, if they fit.
Can anyone tell me how long I need for the trapeze adjustment lines?
The boat is a Nacra 5.7, with 2 traps on each side. It has the older "T" handles & dog bones, along with a single block.
What diameter line would you use, & what strength?
Any other tips on what I need. It looks like the previous owner didn't use the factory set up,(shock cord through the front beam)but simply used a short bungee & hooked it to an eye on the end of each beam.
I have perused all the pics I can find in the galleries regarding rigging the traps, bu they are mostly partial shots. Does anyone have a good pic of how thye rig their traps? I have never been out on a wire & don't really know much about them. The books I got didn't say anything about rigging them, nor does the Nacra assembly manual. It's only mention was to use a 9' piece of 1/4" through the front beam, but nothing past the clip at the end of the beam.
Thanks for all advice, I got all the info I needed regarding rudder assembly from Wolfmans thread on rudder rake.
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How long are Trapeze lines?
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 06:37 PM
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 10:11 PM
3/16" sta-set, its about $0.35/foot - i'd start w/ at least 20' and see what it takes. The front ones should have more adjustment than the skipper's.
iirc APS has the little stops for $1 apiece as well.
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 10:16 PM
Ed, You need 9' of shock cord to go through the front beam for the crew trap and another 9' that goes under the tramp through eyelets just aft of the daggers for the helm. You may not have the setup for the helm trap yet (an easy add on later). Each shock cord should end in a clip. The shock cord can clip to any number of rigs, look at the murrays cataloge for a few examples. Or they can clip directly to the dog bone if you are using the RWO adjustable system (stock on most Nacra's in the 80's).
Are you wanting advice on the length of the trap wires or the lines that you use to change your height? The trap wires are generally about 27-30" shorter than your shrouds depending on the system you are using. You only need 2-3' of line for the adjustment part for each trap.
D.
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1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 10:43 PM
3/16"...that's it? The scraps that are tied to the dogbones LOOKED pretty skinny, I thought way to skinny to be hanging off. I was looking at the Sta-set, I can get it at West Marine locally. 3/16" Sta Set shows 1200# breaking strength, factor 40% loss for the knot/wear, & it didn't seem like a lot left if I had 200# crew bouncing off the end!
However, nothing like experience, if that's what people use, it must be OK.
I can get some ends, mostly 4' but I want to know if that is long enough.
I found the little stops in the bag of mainsheets. My only knowledge at setting these up comes from the pictures of rings/handles in Murrays online site.
Am I correct in thinking the shockcord pulls the adjustment line down,(round the small block, thereby forcing the end with the ring upwards), and when you hook up & hike out the line pulls back through the block, until the stopper runs up against the block. You are dependent on that little stopper to prevent to much line being pulled out & teabagging you?
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 11:06 PM
Yep, you got it exactly right. You'll have no trouble w/ 3/16" sta-set supporting you, or the stopper slipping. I never have.
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 11:06 PM
I use 1/4" but 3/16" would work too remember that there is even a safety factor for the breaking strength, with 600 lb of strength left over after knotting you should be fine. The only thing the shock cord is there for is to keep the lines out of your way when your not using them. The rectangular stops and bits of line are the real adjustment. They just adjust how much line you have between the end of the trap wires and your harness. The longer the line, the lower you sit.
Hard to explain without a photo, unfortunately I don't have one.
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Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 11:08 PM
4' is most likely long enough (depends on your trap line lengths obviously) for the rear adjustments. The front ones really can take a lot of adjustment (at least on my nacra) since the crew will presumably move from the front beam to the rear beam depending on conditions. You want the body of the person on the trap in line with the beams, so the lower hole on the dogbone needs to reach almost to the deck.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 09:33 AM
well yes and no...
you need enough bungee so you can move around the boat as needed (front beam to rear beam)
also the shock cord will hold you close to the boat (or allow you to swing away from it depending on how much cord you got) if/when you pitch pole (stern in the air). if you have 2' (extreme example) of bungee you are gonna get whipped (or whiplash) around when the boat does its thing... the more bungee you have the more room you have to "fly" (also called peter panning as you fly forward).
After a few flights around your forestay... (hahah) you can get pretty good at it. One time i was crew on a 6.0 with wings. we were double trapped (off the wings) in 25-30 when all of a sudden his spinnaker retrieval line (dangling under the tramp) was snagged on a crab trap float. We went from 25 knots to 0 in 1 second and were both thrown forward.. the sudden force ripped his spinnaker spinlock off the mast... and ripped another block off somehow.
as i flew in front of the boat.. i looked where i was gonna come back (into the forestay) and i simply put my hands out to grab it (and protect my face) as i came back "down to earth". He wasn't so lucky.. he smashed into his mast..
anyway had we not had 15' of bungee each .. it would have been different (not sure good or bad).
on my cat.. i have about 20' of bungee for me. it criss crosses under my tramp.. and i have 2 real small (cheap) blocks that aid in its layout.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 09:35 AM
You get what you pay for. we are talking about 4 or 5' per trap.. if your line snaps.. you get wet (always at the worst time).
I would not use used line.. get new line, use a little block (many people simply run through the eye/thimble off the trap line) and when your line looks like its starting to wear. change it (IMHO)
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 02:09 PM
Between the two cats I've had, the three trap adjustment lines that I didn't proactively replace snapped and dumped my crew in the water.
The cost in dogbones alone warrants buying a bunch of new 3/16" sta-set.
I'm with Andrew, it DOES wear, and should be replaced when the wear shows. And that's with new line. See above for results of old line.
I use 3/16" sta-set for my jib downhaul, jib halyard tail, main downhaul, mast rotator (limiter), outhaul, trap adjustment lines, jib traveler lines, main halyard tail, rudder tie ups...and more. I buy a chunk of the sta-set in the off season or if I find it on sale and use it up as it gets worn (cleats wear it out fairly quickly.) I like having all of those lines homogeneous for ease of replacement and cost and ... well, if the 1200# breaking strength is the weakest thing on the boat, good. Controlling and confining failure to the cheapest parts works for me.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 07:27 PM
Thanks Dave, I have the 9' shock cords, got that number from the "tip" in Murrays catalog.
Andrew & Yurdle, I agree, weak line could send you for a dunking. The pieces are brand new, ends from a re rig. I was thinking 1/4", the other stuff just looked to damn skinny! He has some 3' & 4' pieces of new Sta Set,both sizes, 3/16" & 1/4". If 3' is enough for the rear, & 4' enough for the crew, I'll use that. I just didn't want to bother with them if I need a longer line. If there is no good reason to use 3/16", I'm thinking that 1/4" would give an added safety factor as that line in Sta Set has a strength of 2500# Plus he has pieces in blue, that would match the rudder lines, rendering the whole thing looking a little more refined, or less like the Clampets
I'll have to take a picture next time I go up to the cottage. There are 4 trap lines, (2 each side), the traditional style dogbones, & a small block with each. He had a short bungee clipped to a strap eye on the end of the beam. I don't think it would allow for any movement in position.
If some one has a good picture of the setup that would be appreciated.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 07:57 PM
I could be wrong about this, but I think the holes in the stoppers fit 3/16" line, not 1/4"...man they're all of 6 feet away from me, yet I can't force myself to get up and look.
I'd say the good reason to use 3/16" is like I said above...I use it for everything. 1/4" wouldn't hurt if it fits, but i'd be blown away if your legs can support you and 3/16" line couldn't.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 08:21 PM
I just got a shipment of line from APS (like $300 worth to replace the all the line on my boat, and a custom forestay for my roller furler, yay). I also happen to have my trap rigs here for some reason. Anyway the 1/4" VPC line fits the black stoppers no problem. I was actually using 5/16" line in a RWO rig last year and liked it so much I bought a second one used. Here's the rig:
https://www.apsltd.com/p-8544-trapeze-hoist-set.aspx
And APS has all thier line 15% off right now! That is a darn good deal on high tech stuff that never goes on sale.
D.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 10:54 PM
Here's a pic...you have to use a bit of imagination, though:
Obviously, you'd just have one stopper, but I put on two to show the 2 ways to run the line. The one closer to the block may look loose and unstable, but I used it that way for the last two months of this season and never had any issue. It's also really easy to adjust that way, although the only adjustment I use is the top vs bottom dogbone hole when I'm at the helm.
Trapeze line/handle would hook to the block, shock cord would hook to the line just past the stopper (by the coil of line in the pic.) The ring is supposed to be the dogbone.
I know this doesn't qualify as a 'good picture of the setup' but hopefully you follow it.
I don't actually use a block there, either, I just use a shackle on the bottom of the handle, and I've had no issue with wear when starting w/ new line.
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Posted: Jan 16, 2010 - 12:00 AM
Yep that looks like what mine did before I put the RWO system on. I like the stopper setup on the right, like you say easier to adjust. You can do that with my setup, if you run the line to an over/under block. Murray's has an example of that with thier hi/low system.
I like the 3:1 fiddle block system because I can adjust my height with one hand while still working the helm. And I'm no light wieght. :)
Like Yurdle says, you don't really need to run the line through blocks with a simple system. It won't wear quickly and you are so up close and personal with it you will notice wear long before you have to replace the lines.
edited by: Wolfman, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:01 PM
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1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
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Posted: Jan 16, 2010 - 07:43 AM
Thanks, that all makes sense now. I looked at those "adjust on the fly" systems from Murrays. Until I get some experience, I don't know how often I'd need to adjust on the fly, so I'll stick with what I have.
My system has the small blocks, so I'll set it up like Yurdles.
Dave, what were shipping costs from APS? If I only need a small order, it might be better to not save the 15%
edited by: Edchris177, Jan 16, 2010 - 06:45 AM
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Posted: Jan 16, 2010 - 10:40 AM
My nacra came with the adjustable 2:1 systems and I yanked them off of the rear trap liens. They just seem overly complicated and unnecessary in the back.
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Posted: Jan 16, 2010 - 11:27 AM
Simple is good especially until you have some on the water experience with the boat.
APS uses FedEx to ship to Canada. Better than UPS but the costs are likely not worth it for a small order (they won't ship USPS). But if you want a good quanity of high tech line, that makes up for it.
edited by: Wolfman, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:28 AM
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Posted: Jan 20, 2010 - 02:24 PM
ahem...Also check those safety knots on new equipment. Dont assume (as I did) that just because its new it's correct. One time out I had a guy tea bagged on my boat on a brand new adjuster. He was also the guy that I had to "make" wear a pfd. He was not a sailor, it was his first time on a cat, and it was blowing STINK! 2 minutes into the sail and he was 50 yrds behind the boat...trying to swim after me in his pfd...subsequently I REALLY looked at all the adjusters and found that they were all wrong.
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