I don't often get a chance to sail with other cats but suspect my pointing is not great. I think dinghies do better?? Is it the sailor or the boat? The sails are 38 years old and good shape for their age. Thanks.
--
John
Nacra 5.0
CT
--
How high can a Nacra 5.0 point?
-
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 25, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 23, 2024
- Posts: 658
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 06:46 AM
-
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Apr 07, 2017
- Last visit: Apr 27, 2024
- Posts: 341
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 09:16 AM
Absolutely correct. Catamarans will never be as close winded as a well sailed monohull. What helps is to get the boat to heel even if it means getting weight on the leeward side in lighter airs. You want the windward hull just "kissing" the water. That not only reduces drag, but you've also made your boat sail more like a monohull and you'll be able to sail a little higher. Also have your weight forward as much as possible to as to get the thin forward sections of your leeward hull as deep as possible. If you are racing and getting overpowered while trying to get to a windward mark, head up in the puffs to de-power. If seen from above, it will look like you're sailing a series of "scoops" to weather. I've had too much coffee so I'll let someone else talk about sail shape.
--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jun 30, 2018
- Last visit: Mar 20, 2024
- Posts: 583
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 11:13 AM
Welcome to my world - it's "pointless". That was almost the name of my boat... Figuring out weight distribution was the biggest game changer for me, not that it solved my pointing problem, but it sure made it a whole lot better. No way can we point with a mono... Having not played with a skeg boat much, not sure about how to get it to point better. I'd THINK you'd want to get the nose buried more, but with skegs as a keel I'm not sure how that works for proper balance.
A skeg boat like a 5.0, I don't think points as good as a boat with center boards and a center board boat like mine won't point as good as one with dagger boards, like by a lot. You and I give up performance for added reliability (simpler/less to damage), convenience and simplicity. You can improve though, as we all can.
--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Feb 10, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 15, 2024
- Posts: 193
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 11:18 AM
So I have sailed with other Cats and get killed to weather because I can't point as high. I am going to attempt to rake my mast back just a bit the next time I sail and see if that makes any difference. However I don't want to create any tension on my helm so I was gonna move everything just one spot back on the forestay and 1 spot down on the side stays.
--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Mar 19, 2004
- Last visit: Apr 12, 2024
- Posts: 960
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 01:12 PM
Comparing the pointing angle of a dinghy vs. beach cat is apples and oranges. Yea, they’re going to point at a higher angle (because they’re slower). Your VMG upwind should still blow them away.
Now if they’re regularly beating you to the windward mark, then that would be something to be concerned about.
sm
Edited by Dogboy on Oct 03, 2023 - 01:13 PM. -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jul 06, 2009
- Last visit: Mar 28, 2024
- Posts: 383
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 03:56 PM
I sold my N5.0 over this issue.
When you do this also rake your rudders under the stern more. I redrilled my pivots by half the hole width and made adjustment screws on the castings. This loads up the rudders and turns them into centerboards.
Keep the leeward hull buried 3/4 of the way up the bow chine.
Lastly, boat speed. Keep the boat moving. If you can track speed you can find a sweet spot of speed at 55deg off the wind and outrun them.
You could also make a nylon strap with rings (see a Prindle 19) that spans the jib cars. This will allow you to move the jib block inboard and sail by the jib at higher angles.
https://www.catsailor.com…50129/4-way-jib-adjuster
--
FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer" & Nacra Playcat
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Feb 26, 2014
- Last visit: Oct 03, 2023
- Posts: 84
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 04:02 PM
JL> Yes, and no on the statement below (presenting this, just so you don’t think it is necessarily all you). If you are in a relatively light air area and race against say, vipers, do not be discouraged, if they always seem to beat you to weather. If they always beat you to weather in heavy air, it still depends and the next question is, what are you sailing (What is Sail area and age, Boat and crew weight, Dagger boards?, Etc.)
Now if they’re regularly beating you to the windward mark, then that would be something to be concerned about
James. -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 22, 2012
- Last visit: Apr 11, 2024
- Posts: 397
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 06:08 PM
The age of the sails is the big issue. The fastest you'll ever be is the first day with new sails...
Catamaran pointing ability is wind dependent. In our area, I interface with many different types of keelboats. wind 12 knots, I can hang on point and will have much better speed. When the wind is 18+ knots, I'll out point them and roll them easily at 11-12 knots of speed. This is on a modified Prindle 18-2. Give me a Nacra 6.0 or a 5.8, I'll hold my point at all wind ranges.
One key to getting catamarans to point is moving your weight forward... I will drive from in front of the forward crossbeam. When you start getting waves and the bow buries (more critical on the Prindle than the N5.0), start moving your weight aft.
--
Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Feb 10, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 15, 2024
- Posts: 193
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 06:15 PM
1 step at a time...not sure what to expect by raking the mast back...if it doesn't seem to help it point any higher I will go back to where it was set when I bought it and just live with it. It's a recreational cat that I decide to race from time to time.
--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 22, 2012
- Last visit: Apr 11, 2024
- Posts: 397
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 06:28 PM
I would bump it back 1 hole and see how it does.
--
Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Feb 10, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 15, 2024
- Posts: 193
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 07:12 PM
Yeah that's the plan. Doing a distance race at the end of the month...will report back. Thanks.
--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Apr 07, 2017
- Last visit: Apr 27, 2024
- Posts: 341
Posted: Oct 03, 2023 - 09:06 PM
Even 1 hole will move the upper part of the mast back significantly enough to where your sheet lead for your jib will have to be changed. If the 5.0's jib blocks are on a track, they might have to go forward a small amount to compensate for the different angle.
--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Feb 10, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 15, 2024
- Posts: 193
Posted: Oct 04, 2023 - 10:04 AM
So...this boat is new to me and I have been struggling to break the jib blocks while on the wire in the crew position..so maybe it needs to be raked back a bit. It's not a 5.0 it's a 500 and the blocks are on a track on the front beam. Thoughts?
Edited by saltlife77 on Oct 04, 2023 - 11:05 AM.
--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Apr 07, 2017
- Last visit: Apr 27, 2024
- Posts: 341
Posted: Oct 04, 2023 - 04:41 PM
O.K., I owned a 500 for several years and there are only two ways to change your sheeting angle. The clew should have a plate with 3 holes, that's the easiest way. The other way is to extend the overall hoist of your jib a couple of inches by using a pennant at the jib tack. Even a couple of inches will make a huge difference but you can only go one way. It will have the same effect as moving the jib block forward. I don't know if you have a furler but if you don't, Nacra's method of setting up the jib is needlessly troublesome but there is a more "user-friendly" alternative if you don't have a furler.
--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 22, 2012
- Last visit: Apr 11, 2024
- Posts: 397
Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 12:00 PM
500 rather than a 5.0 changes some things. The jib becomes less important, but you can tighten the lead angle by slightly tightening the windward sheet. This will bring the clew to windward. You want to make sure you don't choke the slot.
Another thing to consider is if you don't have the board depth (boardless boats and boats with short boards: i.e Prindle, Tornado, etc...), it is more beneficial (better VMG) to foot a few degrees and gain speed. 25+ years ago when I was racing Tornadoes class, there were a few of them that had perfected footing off in breeze and greatly benefiting upwind. It was only a few degrees, but their boat speed would overcome the distance sailed. Now days, you can easily set a point and you can watch and monitor VMG. You can run something like RaceQs that will calculate VMG and run the different angles and evaluate it when you get off the water. Some programs will give you instant VMG towards a mark.
I did a race on a 40-ish foot shoal keel monohull with an experienced racer on another identical boat. I kept it high and he footed more and beat me on the first beat. We did talk back and forth after the beat and compared notes to improve. Remember, it's water over the foils that get the boat to windward. As mentioned by another, speed is king. It's a tough balance to get speed, bleed it off, and then back down for more speed... and not stop.
--
Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
-- -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Apr 19, 2011
- Last visit: Dec 13, 2023
- Posts: 1445
Posted: Oct 16, 2023 - 05:47 PM
Raking the mast back can be a benefit to pointing higher upwind. You won't feel much difference moving one hole at at time and could give up before you see/feel the benefit. As you rake the mast/sail back, you will notice the rudders getting loaded up with weather helm, making it harder to steer a straight course, and when you let go of the helm the cat rapidly moves off-wind. This is why you move the rudders forward, to lessen the loading on the rudders.
As important, is where your weight is on the cat going upwind. Move forward, and in light air put your crew on the leeward side of the boat so you both can be just behind the crossbar.
To a lessor extent, the following can also have an effect:
1. Mast rotation and downhaul to get the best upwind trim for the mainsail.
2. Batten shaping and sheeting to keep your draft forward in the sail.
3. Jib sheeting to get the perfect slot effect.
4. Making sure your rudders are truly parallel, or slightly toed-in @ 1/8".
5. Having your tell tales report you are doing well with wind flow over your money maker.
In raking the mast, if you have an a threaded adjustable forestay, ALWAYS have 11 threads inside both ends of the turnbuckle. If you need more length than this, purchase a forged stainless steel 2" D shackle to extend the forestay. Cheap imported turnbuckles will part under catamaran forestay loads, and dismasting in the water is not a good day fishing.
--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Feb 10, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 15, 2024
- Posts: 193
Posted: Oct 17, 2023 - 10:40 AM
Thanks Bob for the input..it is well received. Pete
--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--
