Hello All,
I'd like some advice on the best option for putting a smaller mast/sail on a 21SE. Where I live it is windy more than its not windy and my preference is to be able to handle 20-30 when it pops up..and be somewhat family friendly. Racing and maximum performance is not a goal. Having fun when its blowing is.
Also I'd prefer to have a bit less bulk to deal with, esp in terms of mast stepping.
In my area there are some 18 masts available and a mast from a Miracle 20.
The Miracle 20 mast is 31' long, I think, so maybe still a bit on the big side? The 21SE mast is 33', so that's just a 2' reduction.
I'm leaning toward an 18 mast which at 28' seems like the right step down. I'd then get a nice set of modern sails for it. But before I pull any triggers I'd like to get some knowledgable input.
Also, I have to think that a Getaway rig would be going too far down the scale?
Thank You,
Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
ps - this also means that I'll have a 21SE mast/boom/sail that is no longer needed
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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21SE ..smaller rig for
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Posted: Mar 19, 2020 - 01:17 PM
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Posted: Mar 19, 2020 - 03:16 PM
Bill404 might help alleviate you of the mast, sail, etc. They are indeed rare.
Someone's done a 18' mast conversion and I think it worked OK. Of course shrouds are all custom, etc. but that shouldn't be a problem. Same dolphin striker ball, so that's good. Search either here or on the Hobie forums under the 21SC/SE subforums. Thinking about it, it may have been a 21SC conversion to an 18 mast - same difference, though. I get you on the mast thing - I've been going through hoops to set up my trailer to make it easy/safely raisable by one person. If you keep the larger mast, then what I'm doing may be of interest, then you could find a way to reef the sail. My main has reef points in it, but I can't imagine doing so, nor could I imagine the sail not popping out of the track if I did.
Good luck, and keep us informed on your progress.
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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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Posted: Mar 19, 2020 - 05:28 PM
Back in the later 90's, my kids were young. I did not want to discourage them from sailing on high wind days. So I had Randy Smyth design me a "storm" jig that we used a few times. Maybe 20 times total. Even the fabric was heavier. That sail has been part of my inventory since. It has not been used in 20 years but care for as it is stored in my rack of extra sails suspend from my garage ceiling inside of spiral pipe. What can I say but as a sheet metal worker that was one of my specialty.
If anyone is looking for a smaller jib sail....I would probably make it available to them.
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Bill 404 21SE
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Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 11:45 AM
FYI :A quick followup for anyone that may be interested. Short story is: IT WORKED. The H18 rig on the H21SE frame makes for a pretty decent combo, IMO. Sailed it this weekend in 15-20 and we had plenty of power and yet was still easy to manage. The boat felt well balanced and was really easy to sail. Tacking was also a pleasant surprise. First session had just two of us on board (combined weight of 300 lbs), the second session had four of us (combined weight of 600lbs)..and there was zero issue. It all felt like a best case scenario.
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 12:03 PM
that is awesome!
what sails did you put on it?
I mean were they " nice set of modern sails " or stock h18 -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 12:24 PM
Stock H18 mast with a H17 base installed in it. Stock H18 shrouds were just a few inches short which was taken care of by adding a second shroud adjuster. Stock H18 forestay and roller furling. Stock H21 bridles. Sails are old style stock H18, but now that I know it works, may get upgraded to a modern square top. Stock H21 boom, but a H18 would probably work also. The H21 boom is only about 6" longer than necessary for the H18 clew. I think that about covers it. The boat itself is very solid/tight with excellent condition stock centerboards and rudders.
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 01:21 PM
good info
Glad this mod works for you.
I would def suggest new main and jib - they will turn it up to 11!
Call chip at whirlwind sails. :)
IMHO - I think you may be opening a (small) window for an issue with using 2 sets of sidestay adjusters. I think you may have a (small) chance of them getting locked up when slack (leward) and bouncing around. Then if you tack/gybe you may be short on the windward side which could snap back out and bite crew, or cause some other unintended issues. I would get new side stays . Pretty much a good idea to replace standing rigging every few years (esp if in saltwater)
Boom: IF the h18 outhaul works well with the longer boom - no real issue but if it doesn't ... i would use the h18 boom as sail shape is important
enjoy -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 02:09 PM
Double adjusters seem okay, but agree are not an optimal/final solution. I really just wanted to reality check the whole concept and then finalize with improved rigging. Until recently the whole shroud/stay length question was fairly open, except for my basic trig/geometry calculations that suggested H18 shrouds would even be close. And yes, I spoke with Chip a could months ago, and he said he'd be game to make sails for this project when I was ready.
Thanks for the input.
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 03:58 PM
i am sure the will work most of the time - :)
This type of adjuster is known to fail over time - usually one side breaks off - occasionallythe failure is lower and both side come off
I've been on cats where side stay adjusters fail - its a fun thing to hear something go "Bang" and the skipper look all around for what broke. (when it's not your boat) -
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Posted: Oct 17, 2020 - 07:26 PM
Update: The 21se with H18 rig has worked very well this summer. Sailed about 15-20 times in winds up to low 20s and am feeling good about how it has played out. The boat is pretty fast, super comfortable and has plenty of space for 3 or 4 adults. Ordered a set of new H18 square top sails from Chip at Whirlwind and expect them to arrive next week. This winter I'll do some more tweaking and prettying up the rigging, and possibly add a genoa / screacher to help with down wind legs on lighter wind days. It will be on a roller furling and possibly a direct copy from what is offered on the H21SC.
Now that I know this 21/18 experiment is all good, I've decided to sell off the 21SE rigging that is no longer needed. This includes mast, sails, side stays, spinnaker, traps, and maybe something that is escaping my memory at the moment. Prefer to sell as a batch. Obviously shipping makes no sense, so driving to Nags Head, NC will be required for someone. If interested let me know and I can provide pictures or more information and we can work out a fair price.
Robert
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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Posted: Oct 17, 2020 - 10:29 PM
Hello Robert. I may be interested. I would also love to hear about your mods as I have a 21SE and also two 18s (neither 18 is a gem, but one is close to being a parts boat).
Thanks.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2020 - 10:33 PM
Hello Robert. I may be interested. I would also love to hear about your mods as I have a 21SE and also two 18s (neither 18 is a gem, but one is close to being a parts boat).
Thanks.
Tom -
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Posted: Oct 18, 2020 - 07:24 AM
GM Tom, The basic synopsis of the mod's is described in the thread above. I'll try the private message feature from this site to discuss further. Thanks, Robert
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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Posted: Oct 18, 2020 - 08:49 AM
Robert in your experiences with the smaller rig, did you flip the boat?
I would think righting would be easier with less weight aloft (in the water).
I have been following the thread as I have an old 18, no comptip, hulls are pretty bad. My H21SE hasn't been in the water in years because of the difficulties involved with stepping and launching. Changing the rig would make everything easier.
Thank you!
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Todd Elozory
H18
H21SE
Hobie Mirage Tandem Island
Catalina 22
Thonotosassa, Florida
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Posted: Oct 18, 2020 - 02:12 PM
AWESOME!
I am getting to the point my bad shoulder is preventing me from rigging without help
i am dreaming of a carbon fiber mast ... maybe in my future -
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Posted: Oct 18, 2020 - 03:06 PM
Hi Todd,
No, I have not flipped it. One of these days, when there is a support boat around I will just to see what gives. The shorter and much lighter mast/sail will have to make a good difference..right!?! Getting the boat in/out of the water remains a 3 person job (at least on our moderate incline launch). At least stepping the mast is no big deal at all. But man, the boat rides so nice and has just a ton of space. :)
Good luck, Robert
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Robert Netsch
Nags Head, NC
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