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Halyard selection - changing type of line? H21SE  Bottom

  • H21SE has the hook at the top, just like the H18. In fact, the boat is rigged almost exactly like the 18, which is helpful when you're researching tips and tricks.

    I need tips on halyard line selection. I want to go from stretchy whatever I have (double braid, 1/4" standard line) - 68 feet worth to something without stretch and smaller diameter with the hopes it'll make raising sail easier.

    Anyway - I'm having difficulty the last few feet of hiking the danged sail. I mean it's a haul and can't be done bare handed. So, I made sure the slot in the mast was clear, freshly coated with dry lube (and bolt rope), etc., which helped tremendously, but still, there's a ton of stretch in the danged halyard when you're pulling the snot out of those last 2 feet. Since the sail is hooked at the top and the halyard only serves the purpose of raising and lower the sail, could I not go to a dyneema cored double braid of 5/32 or 3/16 (4 or 5 mm) thickness? Thinking it would leave more space in the slot for the bolt rope, etc.

    1/4" Poly has tensile strength just over 2,000 #
    5/32" Dyneema Core is 1,300 #

    Is that too much of a compromise? I just can't imagine putting that much force on this particular halyard since it won't see downhaul forces at all. I don't plan on reefing the main. I know there's a likely reason why I'm off base...

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • having a stretchy halyard is the worst!

    you don't even need 100 lbs of breaking strength for a beach cat halyard that is on a hook
    -it's only stress is the friction on your luff and the sheeve at the top of your mast

    you absolutely can use a high modulus line, single braid, double braid, or blend all will work fine

    I use 5mm (i think, it may be 4) robline dingy control, double braid -dynema core for my main halyard
    I used the same line in 3mm for my jib halyard and downhaul*
    i use 4mm robline racing sheet for my spin halyard and retrieval (dynema blend)

    *As Sam from this site pointed out - this line is not optimal for some downhaul systems that cleat in the exact same spot every time as the jacket is prone to chafe

    PS sounds like you may have a swollen bolt rope or maybe your mast track is pinching somewhere - if clean and lubed it shouldn't be that hard to get a sail up...
  • Yeah, the bolt rope needs to be resewn as the tape has wrinkles. Minimal, but present. That will surely hhelp, but I'll get that done over the winter with other repairs. It did seem tight in that slot with the bolt rope and halyard. Sail and bolt rope itself seem to be in good shape otherwise.

    Thanks for the confirmation. I'll give the thinner halyard a shot Friday. Next, Jib sheets.

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • QuoteThanks for the confirmation. I'll give the thinner halyard a shot Friday. Next, Jib sheets

    Yup!

    ps i don't know the h21 extrusion but i have found there is almost allays LOTS of room in the track - you may want to verify but i really doubt space is an issue - so that shouldn't be the basis of going for smaller line. just remember the thinner the line the harder on the hands



    Edited by MN3 on Aug 28, 2019 - 11:45 AM.
  • The standard 1/4 prestretch that Hobie supplies has always worked reasonably well for me on the H17, H18, and H20. As you noted, the sole purpose of the halyard is to hoist the sail and it sees no load while sailing as long as you properly engage the hook. For that reason, I personally would not go spending a fortune on a fancy halyard line.

    Lubing the luff track and/or bolt rope will certainly help. Also make sure the boat is pointed directly into the wind when hoisting. Being pointed off the wind even slightly can cause the sail to drag on the mast and shrouds which makes hoisting much more difficult. Another important thing to check is the condition of the upper and lower halyard sheaves. These can wear or become frozen over time making hoisting much more difficult. It may even be worth swapping out the standard sheaves for Harken ball bearing sheaves to reduce friction.

    sm
  • Great points - I have just serviced the sheaves, but they are original. The halyard is not original - part of a set. Not sure the brand or make -- jut white, poly double braid. Already dropped the dough, so eh - if I can't use it here - I certainly need to replace my downhaul. 70 feet was less than $50.

    Thanks everyone for the responses - Looks like I also need to check out the line path from the base up past the boom. I'll follow up after the weekend for others to learn from my tribulations.

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • MN3robline dingy control


    Unrelated to being a main halyard, but that stuff if GARBAGE for any application going through a cleat
  • charlescarlisYeah, the bolt rope needs to be resewn as the tape has wrinkles. Minimal, but present. That will surely hhelp, but I'll get that done over the winter with other repairs. It did seem tight in that slot with the bolt rope and halyard. Sail and bolt rope itself seem to be in good shape otherwise.

    Chuck,
    It sounds like a part of your problem is bolt rope shrinkage, which is why you have the wrinkles. The bolt rope is usually three braid twisted and shrinks a lot over time. A shrunken bolt rope is a twisted, angry foe. It creates considerable friction when raising the sail, and may not allow you to correctly downhaul the main- period.

    Lay your sail completely flat on the ground. How curled up is the bolt rope? It should not be curled at all, with no wrinkles in the sail or luff tape. If it is, you have three options:

    1. Free either end of the bolt rope from the luff pocket of the main sail (cut the stitching) and pull it out far enough to sew new matching size rope end to end. Now tension the main sail using your main sheet blocks from the grommet at the head end, and the grommet at the foot of the luff, and suck in the new rope piece as far as you can, massaging the bolt rope in the pocket to encourage it moving inside. I tension my sail between a rock in my yard and the pillars holding up my patio cover. Cut the end and sew the bolt rope into place as before.

    OR (and preferred)

    2. Free both ends of the bolt rope from the luff pocket of the main, attach a new long length of rope to one end and replace the whole thing by pulling the new rope into position while the sail is under tension. Cut and sew accordingly.

    3. This is a very common situation that doesn't catch that attention of many beachcat folks until it gets really bad. If you don't want to fix this yourself, any sailmaker will do this well, quickly, and for a modest cost.



    Edited by klozhald on Aug 28, 2019 - 02:58 PM.

    --
    Sheet In!
    Bob
    ___/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
    Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
    Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
    AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
    (Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
    Arizona, USA
    --
  • Sometimes while raising my main sail, it seems to jam near the top....what happens, is that the halyard line goes through a small block at the base of the mast. That block can "drop" just enough so that once you pull the line again, the line gets caught in the track at the entry slot and pinches in that slot down by your feet......just push it back inside the slot with your thumb and check that slot all the way up to the boom. Now you are back in business. icon_wink

    --
    Bill 404 21SE
    --
  • It's an older EP mylar square top main in good shape. The bolt rope, i think is double braid... Will look closer. It's not curling, but the luff tape is wrinkling.

    Ill follow Bills advice as well. I'm sure its time to replace the sheaves-will try and do that tomorrow.

    Thanks again guys.

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • What rope is preferred for the bolt?

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • Do you have the proper amount of mast bend to match the cut of your sail?

    --
    dk

    Blade F-16
    Blade F-16 (2nd One)
    Hobie Tiger
    Hobie 14
    Corsair F-242
    --
  • Heck, I have no clue how to tell. I set the diamond wires and spreaders to factory specs, so assume so. Also, we have had luck getting the sail to set easily before, so I'll venture a "yes". As a guess.

    It does make me wonder though, how much rotation i should use. Right now the luff track is just set to point to the shroud anchors (45 degrees?) , but see where H18s rotate up to a full 90+. They are rigged similarly. But, I'm not racing. It helped a lot to replace another section of plastic track with aluminum and make sure the track had no burrs.

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --
  • QuoteIt does make me wonder though, how much rotation i should use. Right now the luff track is just set to point to the shroud anchors (45 degrees?)

    the general rule of thumb is:

    upwind
    point at the shroud for normal sailing
    point at the rear beam bolt for heavy air

    downwind
    rotation limiter off - so it can go 90* if it needs to
  • charlescarlisWhat rope is preferred for the bolt?

    Three strand twisted because it stretches a lot, and will allow you to get your sail downhauled to the max position easily.

    --
    Sheet In!
    Bob
    ___/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
    Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
    Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
    AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
    (Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
    Arizona, USA
    --
  • Ah, thanks! That explains a lot, actually...

    --
    Chuck C.
    H21SE 408
    --

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