does anyone have an active downhaul on a furling jib? :: Catamaran Sailboats at TheBeachcats.com

Welcome anonymous guest

Please Support
TheBeachcats.com

does anyone have an active downhaul on a furling jib?

MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jul 30, 2019 - 08:11 PM

All this talk about downhaul and even jib downhaul has me wanting to play with a jib downhaul gimick

anyone try to add one to a furling jib somehow?

disclaimer: I know a local sailor to me has tried it. i don't think he had a working solution but i really don't know

Edited by MN3 on Jul 30, 2019 - 08:14 PM.
HULLFLYER

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 06, 2004

Last visit: Feb 24, 2024

Posts: 877
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 08:16 AM

The Nacra 6.0 NA had a Jib uphaul with a roller furling jib
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 09:27 AM

HULLFLYERThe Nacra 6.0 NA had a Jib uphaul with a roller furling jib

I have seen them on non furlers

a little research:
"The blocks on the bow foil are for the jib luff tension. The jib halyard connects to the blocks, the line from the blocks goes back to a cam cleat on the main beam."

"As said, the blocks on the foil, are for jib luff tensior while on the fly. I had a furler on mine, and rarely ever used this for this purpose."

how did they run the uphaul line with a furler?

Edited by MN3 on Jul 31, 2019 - 09:33 AM.
badfish

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jan 17, 2019

Last visit: Jan 13, 2020

Posts: 216
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 12:44 PM

The C2 has a jib uphaul you can adjust on the fly.
We almost never adjust it unless the conditions change that drastically. Drifter turns into ~20kts or vice versa.

I wouldn't bother installing one.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 02:32 PM

QuoteThe C2 has a jib uphaul you can adjust on the fly.

But that is a self tacker isn't it?
or at least a non furling one - correct?

and the C2 is a race boat that uses a spinnaker for downwind leg - a non spin boat could see a bigger value off and down wind (i think)

Edited by MN3 on Jul 31, 2019 - 02:35 PM.
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 04:12 PM

Depends on how your jib halyard is setup. I don't have a great solution for this on a halyard lock. The N20 solution, and C2 solution, is to essentially connect the downhaul to the halyard directly, all blocks on the parts that don't move save for 1 block inside the jib luff.

Frankly the gains with this are generally small, set and forget is pretty much my motto on jib downhaul.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 05:15 PM

appreciate the input but your talking about a racing boat that has self tacking, non furling and uses a spin for all down wind racing ...

different creature than an overlapping, furling jib, non-spin rig that i am trying to maximize every setting on (i MUST beat my buddy to the next island)

Philip claims it is a great advantage in light air - and i have desired it for over a decade ... time to try and see
Edchris177

Rank: Chief

Registered: Nov 26, 2009

Last visit: Apr 10, 2024

Posts: 2524
Posted: Jul 31, 2019 - 09:24 PM

I had one on my 5.7, but I almost never used it, so I went to set & forget. You could not adjust with the jib furled, but once the jib was fully out, all the twists were eliminated. I left the 5.7 with a clam cleat attached to the top of the drum, before sailing, just pull the line to desired tension & cleat. You could luff up, step forward on the hull & recleat if you wanted to, but that’s not really “on the fly”, & it’s a big stretch if your Mystere is 10’ beam.
My little Dart can be adjusted on the fly. It’s a hanked on jib, & if the tension isn’t right, sometimes the leading edge turns inward, especially pinching in strong wind.
The setup is pretty simple. Jib is tensioned vis the halyard. When fully out, the halyard has no twists up near the turning block. Just undo the halyard from the cleat at mast base, pull to whatever you want, & re-cleat. When you furl the jib, I have to first release some tension. The halyard sort of winds around the forestay with the jib.
In actual practice I almost never bother, but I can see a slight advantage if the wind were to die right off from Force 5.
The Dart has a pretty small jib, it’s not many turns to furl , I can’t remember how many my Mystere 6.0XL used.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
Kevin219

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 10, 2010

Last visit: Jan 07, 2022

Posts: 356
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 10:51 AM

I never considered what those pulleys on my 6.0 foil were for. Thank you. I just use that cleat on the cross bar for the furling line. Do you think there's much performance to be gained by using the uphaul?

--
Nacra 6.0 NA
Ogden Dunes, IN
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 11:28 AM

QuoteDo you think there's much performance to be gained by using the uphaul?

luff adjustment on a sail is an important adjuster but it is in question if it is worth it
it is kinda tricky to set up with a furling jib so few if any have real on the fly adjustability

not much gain if you race with a spin
not as much if you use a small (non overlap) self tacker
small gains for non spin, larger jib

Philip claims it is a nice advantage in light air

If i can get it to work for the cost of a few 16mm blocks - i am game to try
badfish

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jan 17, 2019

Last visit: Jan 13, 2020

Posts: 216
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 11:45 AM

MN3
QuoteThe C2 has a jib uphaul you can adjust on the fly.

But that is a self tacker isn't it?
or at least a non furling one - correct?

and the C2 is a race boat that uses a spinnaker for downwind leg - a non spin boat could see a bigger value off and down wind (i think)Edited by MN3 on Jul 31, 2019 - 02:35 PM.

You are correct on all counts.
Perhaps I am being too simplistic here, I don't have a reference point for a furling jib uphaul, but I am unsure why you couldn't duplicate the setup from a self-tacker. The only caveat would be the need to release/ease the jib uphaul line prior to furling and re-set it when unfurling. Its not ideal by any means, but you could minimize your investment to see if it is worth the investment to do something more well thought out.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 11:57 AM

Quotebut I am unsure why you couldn't duplicate the setup from a self-tacker.

how to run the halyard/uphaul is the issue
can't run it outside the furler, it would wrap 15-20 wraps around the furler outside - no good

can run up and out of the forestay area - and down the mast but there will be a good amount of spinning and wrapping around the forestay unless it is managed somehow

it can go through the hobie style furler as i have done but it is not a round surface in there - so i added a tube.

QuoteThe only caveat would be the need to release/ease the jib uphaul line pri r to furling and re-set it when unfurling. Its not ideal by any means, but you could minimize your investment to see if it is worth the investment to do something more well thought out.

Having the halyard twist up 15-20 times each furl is not a workable solution to me - this puts too many parts at risk
(jib halyard, block and luff oversheeting )
but i have 2 spinning micro blocks to mitigate this

Edited by MN3 on Aug 01, 2019 - 12:03 PM.
badfish

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jan 17, 2019

Last visit: Jan 13, 2020

Posts: 216
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 12:30 PM

Quotehow to run the halyard/uphaul is the issue

I guess the picture is the setup you came up with?
I don't see how it's going to twist or anything more than just around the shackle holding the foot.
I assume the block at the far right will be on the bow bridle tang? If so, then I don't see why you couldn't just use sister clips at the halyard/uphaul.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 02:17 PM

QuoteI don't see how it's going to twist or anything more than just around the shackle holding the foot.

well as the sail and drum furl the halyard coming out the bottom is gonna twist
i put a swivel block on the halyard / uphaul just above and below the furler so only 1.5" (edit 1.5 feet not inches) dynema is gonna twist and it can twist from both ends so it should not compress the line via twist

QuoteI assume the block at the far right will be on the bow bridle tang?

I omitted the data there will be a CF pole right below the furler (it's job is to hold a small front tramp for my anchor and righting bag) (edit - the turning block will be attached to the pole via a line that will allow it to move just enough to be inline if the bridal moves (the bridal will also be secured from moving via a few guy lines on the pole)

Quotethen I don't see why you couldn't just use sister clips at the halyard/uphaul.

I was gonna then researched it - the breaking load is only 70kg for my clips - i don't think that is enough if there was some unexpected stress on it (aka a human in a peter-pan or a hard capsize, or hitting a tree (again))...

Edited by MN3 on Aug 01, 2019 - 05:53 PM.
badfish

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jan 17, 2019

Last visit: Jan 13, 2020

Posts: 216
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 04:46 PM

QuoteI was gonna then researched it - the breaking load is only 70kg for my clips

Good point. 70 kg is substantial (roughly 150lbs) but that's also breaking load. Working load will be a good bit less.
whatever you do, don't tie a double fisherman's knot. You'll never get it undone.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Aug 01, 2019 - 04:58 PM

Quote don't tie a double fisherman's knot. You'll never get it undone.

haha!

Hard to see in the above pic but i have a micro shackle on the top swivel block
i prefer to use a knot but i decided i don't want to mess around with the halyard (in case i drop it from a flogging jib while trying to secure it - this would require flipping my boat to retrieve), so i decided a small shackle would work just fine (in the same loop the sister clip will reside)

you should be able to see it better in this image
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Apr 06, 2024

Posts: 7088
Posted: Aug 13, 2019 - 12:14 PM

Tested this system on saturday

worked well for it's first time out / testing

i ended up going with an in/on luff setup - i decided i didn't want all the mechanics dangling when not sheeted

i tried to share a cleat with the jib furling line, thinking they would not be used at the same time - ended up being a little harder to control on the fly than expected - i will add another cam-cleat to my beam (need one for when i fly a spin anyway)

i ended up with a 3:1 setup - i think i will add a 2:1 at the bitter end turning this into a 6:1 - probably a bit more than needed but will be better than a little less than neeeded