I saw some reference in a post to certain models of F18s being part of the Dead Boat Society, and have seen a ton of Infusions for sale. What was the rule change or new tech driving this?
--
John
Nacra 5.0
CT
--
F18
-
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 25, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 07, 2024
- Posts: 657
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 01:40 PM
-
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 01:59 PM
Just my opinion but it appears as if locally for us F18 has seen a decrease in general. Add on top of that Nacra's subpar customer support in the US and I think that explains the Infusion's decline. Plus, the C2 is a better thought out boat and QA/QC seems better.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 04:35 PM
from what i gather:
cat sailing in the us is close to dead
very few US producers still in business - very poor support available
Condos killing beach access - townships don't want masts on beaches
SUP, kayaks and even kite boards are a lot easier to "Rig" and enjoy (no mast to step)
as per the infusion: unless it's the latest model - it's obsolete - this is true for most early gen boats f18 esp with all the advances in foiling -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 04:51 PM
I disagree. It is not the heyday it once was to be sure, but on life support? Then again, so is almost every form of sailing. I think we all should be sailing in and by populated areas. Watching a guy/girl on the wire ripping down the beach just out past the breakers silently is freaking cool. It's precisely what got me into cat sailing to begin with. A Hobie ripping through the surf.
The US has a real issue with public perception of sailing. Show them its not what they think.
On F18, I'd still take a Tiger. Good enough to go play with the local fleet, but not worried about dumping thousands a year on the latest and greatest. Technology is just too fast for lowly 'ol me to keep up.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Mar 19, 2004
- Last visit: Apr 12, 2024
- Posts: 960
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 05:09 PM
The thread you are referring to (I believe) was in reference to the Bimare F18HT. The F18HT was a separate formula class that somewhat spawned off of/was based off of the original F18 class but involved even more expensive, niche boats (basically 100% or nearly 100% carbon construction) and as a result the class never really took off (for obvious reasons).
With regard to the “regular” F18 class, that class has been in existance for over 20 years. That it is a manufacturer driven formula/development class, means that older boat designs will constantly be obsoleted and discontinued by the manufacturers as the designs evolve. It is simply the nature of the class and something you have to accept if you intend to own/race one of those boats.
sm -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Apr 01, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 12, 2022
- Posts: 41
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 06:05 PM
I think this seems like a lot of speculation. I run Nacra and was also F18 Class President for 4 years. Is Nacra perfect in the US? No it's not...but I'm also only one person running the company because we don't sell a lot of boats. We rely on our dealers as partners and are constantly trying to improve, but it's not easy because most dealers aren't selling enough to support their Nacra efforts. We're doing our best... we're selling less than 20 boats a year, yet we still have a US Warehouse with boats and long parts ready to go, insurance (which is not cheap), they pay me, and an entire team and building in the Netherlands. I work also for 4 other companies to pay my bills but stay on top of Nacra needs... when we're selling 50+ again then we can dedicate more resources but the math with our current structure doesn't even work yet we're still chugging along as if it does, and we advertise on this site!
In the meantime you can contact myself, one of our dealers, or purchase directly from our online webstore.
If you have an issue with Nacra please contact me at Todd@Nacrasailing.com
As far as the C2 being better thought out and Quality... I've owned 4 Infusions, 2 C2's, and a Wildcat. They all have their pros and cons, a hybrid of all of them would be best. The factory parts of Nacra are definitely the highest quality and function, but the C2 has some clever design, where the Wildcat has very nice rigging.
But the C2 and the Infusion have been built in the same factory for 10 years (even changed from one factory to another together) and while there are some slight differences in construction both are very good now. I had problems with my 2009 Infusion, but I also had problems with my C2s and Wildcat.
I believe the nature of the decline in the F18 is due to the people in the class changing. In the Northeast, a bunch of us that were active in our 20's are now settling down and sailing less, others got older and etc. Each fleet has their transitions. The A Class is currently doing well because it's mostly a lot of older people with time on their hands.
Is some tech driving F18 used sales? No I don't think so. I don't know anyone selling their boats to buy an Epoxy boat or a boat with a decksweeper. Over time people have sold their MKIs with short boards to get newer boats with long boards, but that's a natural progression.
The great thing about the F18 Class is it addresses Catamaran sailors natural desire to evolve, our boats evolve slowly but it's by no means an arms race. A few thousand dollars every few years and you can have up to date kit, and it could probably be even long. Long boards came out 8 years ago and cost about 3K and Decksweeper came out last year and cost about 2K. So 2 major changes in 8 years.
As we go through ups and downs over the last 10 years, the common driving factors of the used boats is simply 1)Recreational F18s selling 2)People looking to get out of the class completely 3)Very occasional someone looking to upgrade
The F18 Class is hanging on in the Northeast, Southeast, Wisconsin, and SoCal. All 3 areas had good success a few years ago and are going through a slump but it's not over. Michigan is booming and has a solid F18 fleet and hosting this year's North Americans.
Bit of a rant but hopefully this answers some questions.
-Todd Riccardi
Nacra Sailing North America
Edited by nacrasailing on Mar 21, 2019 - 06:16 PM. -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 06:27 PM
I didn't mean poor - i meant sparse or non existent
I have had some great support from Mystere even when they were out of business - (thank you !)
Todd you have been doing a great job supporting Nacra USA! and a great asset to this forum (thank you !)
when i hit the lotto i am purchasing a dozen 580's and dozen f18's from you -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 18, 2005
- Last visit: Apr 10, 2024
- Posts: 235
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 07:41 PM
Our fleet has, at most, two boats that are the same model. Most of our boats can't sail in some local events because they are the wrong make. Sure there is still the one OD fleet and the F18 can pull a start together. I do think cat sailing will continue to wane if "Open" fleet sailing is the exception rather than the rule. There just isn't the number of overall boats on the water there once was. Pulling every boat available together is help to maintain a minimal critical mass.
--
dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 21, 2019 - 09:05 PM
Opinion is just that. My opinion.
I raced F18 on an Infusion MKII, it was a fantastic boat. My skipper still swears it was faster than his current C2. (Nacra rudder setup is easily superior) Truth is though, he traded up in large part because of a lack of support from Nacra. Business is fickle. If you don’t sell boats you can’t support them, I get that. People were buying though, just not Nacras as evidenced by the explosion of C2’s in our local fleet. Who knows what came first, the chicken or the egg?
F18 is a challenging fleet. I personally believe there is room for a two tier fleet to allow room for the novices to join with the secondhand “outdated” boats and yet still be competitive. I hope the class can work around these problems. It’s too much fun to have the kite up, on the wire at 20 knots with a dozen boats doing the exact same.
Ultimate point is, I really would like to see a larger market for the “Dead Boat Society” and for the record, I REALLY want a ride on the 500 Sport!
Edited by badfish on Mar 21, 2019 - 10:33 PM.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 08:16 AM
I live is sailing mecca. protected bays and sounds, gulf access, warm water and 11 months of sailing
at our beach there is a rental shack, called SAIL honeymoon
he rents 100's of sup's a week - out of his rentable sail boats ... he rents a few a month these days and we have a few sailors flying hulls and doing "stadium runs" (show-boating it up and down the entire beach line). We have flashes going off at sunset - and yet people don't rent sailboats - they rent sup's and kayaks
nacra usa sells 20 boat a year
sailing shops are closing all around us in the tampa/st pete area
Local hobie dealer sells a ton of kayaks - almost zero catamarans
youth racing is done on ancient 420's
the s.e. market for used cats has imploded (used boats have lost the majority of their resale value)
there are almost zero "NEW" recreational catamarans sold in the usa these days . (used sales are not a part of GDP)
I'm gonna stick to my statement "cat sailing in the us is almost a dead sport" -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 09:32 AM
I suppose I'm just an optimist. Sure SUP rents better than sailboats. It's cheaper to rent and easier to learn.
Yes kayaks dominate the market, god only knows why but I cant blame Hobie for getting in it. Heck, I'd like to have one of those Tandem AIs.
We still have a few sailing shops, but admittedly they either cater to big boats or to dinghies. I half blame it on everyone going online for their needs.
The used market for cats is still pretty strong for us in the sub 5k range.
Youth racing is still facing challenges, but kids are making the leap onto Nacra 15's, A-cat, etc. RedGear Racing in Clearwater seem to have no problem staying busy.
The local club held a free "try it out" day and we had a ridiculous amount of interest. Now, we had a lot fewer people actually show up but of those who did, every one of them thoroughly enjoyed themselves and half of them either started crewing or went out and purchased used cats. I feel like its more of an accessibility and image issue. Let's just say I've never seen anyone come back from a ride and not be grinning ear to ear.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 10:40 AM
I appreciate your optimism and pov - i just don't agree that cat sailing is "strong", surviving or even viable in the modern US economy
"The used market for cats is still pretty strong for us in the sub 5k range."
not in the south east values have plummeted -
"Youth racing is still facing challenges, but kids are making the leap onto Nacra 15's, A-cat, etc. "
The rich kids will always have yacht and polo ponies for sure
"RedGear Racing in Clearwater seem to have no problem staying busy."
Being a top private coach for pros and olympic hopefuls (and the occasional recreational sailor), and being the SE rep for the top racing cats has been good to Jill and Robby - there are VERY few professional sailing coach jobs in this country - a 2 person company that are constantly on the road does not indicate "a strong industry" to me -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 11:07 AM
Maybe this just means we can buy more used boats...
I can only hope you're wrong. Time will tell. 'Til then, sheet in and sail hard.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Apr 01, 2016
- Last visit: Apr 12, 2022
- Posts: 41
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 01:27 PM
Sarasota Youth Sailing has 3 Club owned Nacra 15s and are buying 2 more soon, and they have 1 private one! Another program in RI has 3 and probably buying two more soon!
There is a future! -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 01:32 PM
Most of the time we run two classes. Spin and Non-Spin. Everyone gets to play. Not everyone is happy with their rating (or more likely someone else's rating) but hey, we can all play or we can all stay at home. Its that simple and if you can drag together 3 like boats, you can have your own start at RCs discretion.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: May 01, 2017
- Last visit: Jul 06, 2020
- Posts: 43
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 02:24 PM
Joshua,
"The local club held a free "try it out" day" how was this event advertised? We would need to the same thing
thx -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 03:19 PM
Facebook and Fliers at the local shops. Had a bunch of experienced skippers (not just ones claiming experience) bring their boats out to give rides, we also had skippers to climb aboard a beginners boat if he/she wanted to. Lunch was provided by the club as well as extra lifejackets, harnesses, etc.
We ended up with a good array of boats for people to try out from P16's and H17s to F18 and everything in between. The look on the faces from people who have never been on a cat or even sailed before coming back from a downwind sleigh ride with a kite is priceless.
We counted it as a success and plan to do it again this year.
Edited by badfish on Mar 22, 2019 - 03:33 PM.
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: May 01, 2017
- Last visit: Jul 06, 2020
- Posts: 43
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 04:19 PM
Fantastic! We will try to do something like that with our club this summer. I think we all need to be proactive and do creative things like this to get this great sport bringing in new sailors. What a great way to do that.
thanks -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jan 17, 2019
- Last visit: Jan 13, 2020
- Posts: 216
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 04:28 PM
Best of luck.
I mean let’s be truthful. We’re going to sail anyways and most people enjoy giving rides, why not make it an event?
--
Joshua
Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
-- -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Apr 27, 2011
- Last visit: Dec 13, 2022
- Posts: 163
Posted: Mar 22, 2019 - 05:18 PM
We've had a bit of luck and a bit of success (as a result of planning) in Michigan. One thing that has helped a ton is a 100% run what ya brung philosophy. Most regattas have 2-3 and sometimes 4 separate starts. Some fleets are more serious (in our case F18), and others less so. And that is fine. One of the biggest and most fun groups is the open 16 fleet. These guys bring their $500 backyard disaster boats and have an absolute total blast.
This has created a good foundation - both culturally and by providing a good supply of guys/gals that get hooked that eventually start having spinnaker envy, interest in HCA class-legal racing, etc. I think all clubs need to be run with this as goal.
The world is a different place than it was 25yrs ago (hay-day of cat racing), but with a bit of deliberate focus and patience, it can and will pay off.
Will our luck continue? I sure hope so.
--
Jeff R
'88 H18 "Jolly Mon"
'10 C2 USA1193
NE IN / SE MI
cramsailing.com
--
