Is this something that happens generally to catamarans in high winds? Or to certain models in high winds?
I'm basically trying to figure out whether I have to expect/accept this in high winds w/ my boat, or is there something else I have to do.
Background: So before I bought my boat (P18.2) I watched a video of a prior owner sailing in high winds and at one point they made a couple of unsuccessful attempts to tack but got stuck in irons. The narrative posted in the video said "too windy to tack - so we jibe." (No need to watch it, but it's at 2:40 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlEbMYx3YI0.)
I figured well, they must have been doing it wrong. The owner's manual says don't just throw the tiller over or you'll stop the boat's momentum; move it gradually so the boat sails through a U-shaped arc & keeps moving. Ease out on the main a little and let the jib back wind until you're definitely through. Also don't try to come about from a broad reach - be sure you start sailing closer to the wind.
So yesterday in high winds and decent-sized waves sailing solo to my surprise I ran into the same problem multiple times. Tried to come about and got stuck in irons. Backed off and tried it again from varying speeds and angles - more off the wind to start from a higher speed, then closer to the wind to have less of a turn to make. Made best efforts swing through at just the right speed to keep moving, and still no luck. Just seemed like the winds were so strong they would not allow the nose of the boat to make it through the wind. Was finally forced to jibe on multiple occasions (which really sucked considering I was trying to beat an upwind course).
When I crewed on the I-20 (actually when handling the helm a few times) I was impressed by how effortlessly it came about through the wind - just seemed to pivot on a dime no problem. I attributed the difference to the fact that (a) the I-20 hulls are rounded on the bottom, whereas mine are more V-shaped, and (b) the I-20 has long thin dagger boards - compared to the wide, sort of half moon-shaped pivoting boards on my boat (P19 same).
Any comments, esp by P18.2/P19 owners, on whether I have to expect this in high winds, or is there something else I can/need to do when the winds are really honking to make it through? (Medium winds are no problem.) Also, for anybody, is this a thing that happens with other models of cats in high winds? Thanks.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 29, 2018 - 10:23 AM.
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1998 P18.2
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Catamarans Forced to Jibe in High Winds?
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 09:18 AM
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 10:09 AM
I am no expert, but in the video I think he should have back-winded the jib and that would have pushed him around onto the new tack. Also, he should have released his traveler so his main sail did not
'weather vane" the boat.
I've got a smaller cat, but it too can be challenging to tack in high winds. I failed many times, until I started to release the traveler and that allowed the boat to turn independent of the sail.
I think the hobie 20 has center boards and that should help the boat tack on a dime
Try releasing your traveler next time and see what happens. -
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 10:29 AM
It depends to some degree on the type of boat and to a large degree on the skill of the skipper/crew. A lot of it comes down to feel, which is developed through time on the water and experience - knowing just how quickly to push the helm over, when to release the sails and switch sides, timing the waves. But generally, a skilled crew can easily tack just about any catamaran in winds up to around 20-25 mph.
Above that, things can get a little dicey as you likely will have to back the jib to get the bow around and you start to run the risk of blowing over sideways or backwards.
In my experience, once it becomes very difficult or impossible to tack upwind, you are at just as much if not greater risk of pitchpoling while jibing downwind. Probably time to put in a reef or get off the water at that point.
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 03:10 PM
Ditty with the DogBoy, traveler helps execute the tack but timing a tack with wind and waves in relation to rudder movement is the key priority IMHO. When it gets sporty we are continually on our toes, often moving very rapidly to counter to forces. Suggest reading book and articles from Rick White who was the Man, Myth and Legend on beach cats knowledge and experience.
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Todd
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 05:24 PM
agree with Dogboy's points:
but there is more to that fail
He had just dumped the main and dunked his crew (stopping the boat)
he then built up some speed again but did not have control of his main (it was payed way out, and traveled to center - pretty much opposite of what he should have done to have control of his heeling/power/speed)
He still had crew on the wire when he started the tack, again the lack of control on his main sail killed his speed and that is why he couldn't tack
If he had his travler out some, sheeted the main in tight, kept up speed and momentum, called his crew in to manage the jib and was smooth about it ... he should have been able to tack
about jybing in heavy air ... the main thing is to KEEP YOUR SPEED UP and make sure your have control of your main/travler during the gybe ... or you may capsize and fly through your main window - the hardest part is turning from upwind to downwind going through that wild beam reach mode - and if your sails are blown out .... it makes things worse at this precise moment -
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 05:52 PM
CatFan57,
When you get stuck in irons, position the people on the cat to balance the hulls. Pull the main sail into the centered position, loosely sheeted. Choose your intended direction and then pull the jib to the opposite side of the boat as far as you can. If the cat rotates, keep holding the jib until it is moving in the direction you want to go. If the boat instead starts backing up, keep holding the jib and reverse the rudders so that the cat does back up, eventually pointing into the correct direction. Then let go of the jib.
In the video:
1. Both near capsizes were because there was too much weight toward the front of the cat. In the event where the woman on the skipper's trapeze came forward around the forestay, the crew on trap (Dad) is positioned on the front crossbar already- which is way too far forward. Poor weight distribution, as demonstrated a number of times in the video, helps put a cat into irons during a tack.
2. Up is up, and down is down. If your crew is more interested in taking video than balancing the boat fore and aft, the hulls aimed down into the water will, in fact, go there. Though we couldn't see it, the skipper did a good job of not pitchpoling the cat on both occasions, sacrificing Bad Ballast Dad into the drink on the second one. The GoPro films remarkably well while submerged.
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 11:29 AM
Sometimes you can turn in reverse, as a last resource. The window of time to revert the rudders is very short. In case of waves be ready to move along the tramp to avoid sinking the sterns. Also ease the mainsheet soon, it prevents you from turning (not sure when from here in the office...)
I enjoyed the video, with that wind I'm too scared to fly a hull.. -
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 12:21 PM
I didn't initially watch the video, but after taking a look, I think you could have easily reversed the rudders and gotten the bow to swing around onto the new tack (forget trying to reach up and manually backwind the jib by hand in those conditions - not going to work).
The main problem I see is that you just weren't sheeted in hard enough on the main (and too hard on the jib), so the boat just parked when you tried to tack. I would put on a lot more downhaul in those conditions. It will help to settle down the boat and allow you to sheet harder.
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 01:49 PM
A side note: I would suggest more speed for the jibe under these conditions: you get less apparent wind when crossing downwind, therefore a safer and smoother jibe. Not ideal if you want to go upwind, of course, but I'm sure you can refine the taking and rely on it. It's not unusual to fail a tack from time to time, but the second attempt with a bit more focus should work. Even a third one before you decide to jibe, but by then it might be time to call it a day... especially if technique is not the issue, meaning it's getting quite messy. I experience that every time I venture out of the bay, wind and waves grow progressively until it's enough.. -
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 03:56 PM
I finally got a chance to watch with high bandwidth -- what I noticed was how far out of the water the bows were (it almost looked like you were starting to roll tack?). The boat will rotate around the weighted and wetted pivot points. Foils obviously matter here (centerboards and rudders), but don't forget the hulls are foils, too. With your collective crew weight this far back, your effective pivot point is way back, and getting the sails around that corner and across the wind is tough, especially as speed decreases and steerage goes to zero (foils pull harder when there's water flowing speedily over them).
Dunno how hard it is to coordinate a proper roll tack with three bodies aboard... it works well single-hand or with two bodies in good communication; you lose less momentum on the turn and thus exit with better speed. If you're roll-tacking, keep your weight aft and windward side as long as you can to lift the leeward bow so that when the boat comes through the wind, that wind pushes that bow around the pivot of where you've weighted the wetted foils. As you turn through the wind, have crew cross and move forward to the crossbeam, and skipper cross at the rear beam and move to mid-tramp (I think of it as moving in an 'L' and not diagonally). On my H18, it feels like the boat pivots around the windward corner of the rear cross-beam when we've done it right... it feels less like a carved turn and more like a snap pivot. Great, fast fun when it all comes together!
Rick White's book has a good description. If you practice and drill, boat balance becomes almost instinctive, and you can pivot on the proverbial dime. Practice in flat water... bigger waves can be a challenge to anticipate the balance points and move through them.
I first learned to tack by back-winding the jib and letting it drag the nose across the wind. With enough momentum, you'll make it through, but if you have too little momentum, you're at risk to stall/stop, and may need to reverse the tillers and back across the wind, then catch the wind to start moving forward again and get back up to speed. I'm getting faster by roll-tacking more... I think it all comes down to practice and boat-balance.
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 09:43 PM
Hi guys, thanks a lot for all the great replies, really appreciated. I'm reading and re-reading them a few times to digest & absorb all the tips.
To Tstein and Randii: thanks for the suggestion of Rick White's book. I looked it up on Amazon - "Catamaran Racing for the 90's" - and ordered a copy. Will be glad to have a source book from the pro(s). Looks like the first chapter's about learning the weight shifting awareness stuff Randii's talking about. Book intro is online, where White says "people will spend hundreds or thousands for the latest gear that will get them a few extra seconds, but won't spend a small amount to learn foundational strategies that will save them minutes." Sounded right to me, I plunked down my $25.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 31, 2018 - 05:03 AM.
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 09:49 PM
Question for tradisrad and MN3 who said release the traveler to assist in the tack. I understand why you want to release the main (so it doesn't weather vane you back the wrong way), but any reason why you're suggesting doing that w/ traveler rather than just sheeting out? (Maybe because we're talking about a tack starting from a situation where winds are so strong you'd be traveled out to start with?)
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 31, 2018 - 04:58 AM.
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Posted: Oct 30, 2018 - 11:19 PM
Should have just given up a little main as you would do on any tack and backwinded the jib. On extreme situations or navigating stream, inlet or waves...reverse rudder and back her around.
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 04:16 AM
And thanks to all who said if I do get stuck in irons, to learn how to reverse the rudders so when/if the boat starts backing up I back out and end up facing in the desired direction, not the same direction I started from. Guess that's a basic skill I wasn't up on. Sounds like you have a short window of opportunity to recognize you're not gonna make it & make that reversal though(?). That's the first thing I'm gonna work on next time out.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 31, 2018 - 05:22 AM.
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 07:31 AM
I was suggesting in strong wind to crack the traveler off a few inches or more (and sheet the main in snug) to help control the power (reducing the angle of attack) during sailing... not for tacking. If you look at the sails after he dumps the main ... it is a big flopping pillowcase. this is fine while completely unsheeted (not sailing) but if you try to sail upwind with a pillowcase shape .. you're not going to have optimal control and it will beat the sail up with all the shake-rattle-rolling it will do (flog like crazy).
not sure who is in the video - and i mean no offence with my comments. but the more i watch it , the more i think his weight placement/management, sheeting and timing were why he couldn't tack. -
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 09:48 AM
A lot of these guys are far more experienced than I am. I release the traveler because it's quicker than sheeting out as I pass through the wind. I have a Nacra 460 and it does not like to tack in high winds (and I like to sail in 15+ mph), so releasing the traveler works well for me, is it the best way? probably not.... However, I rarely get stuck in irons when doing this. -
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 11:16 AM
To tack a boat, you want (need) to keep the speed up enough to not stall in the tack (go into irons). you want the travler close to center and the main sheeted in. this will acheive the correct (or optimal) angle of attack of your sail (via travler), and a properlly sheeted main (sheeted in, but not sheeted crazy tight) that will reduce flogging, and keep your cat powered up to get the bows through the water/tack
so if you are sailing in high winds (travled out a little or alot) and about to tack, you need to activly manage your sheets (e.q. as you start your tack, you need to be traveling in so by the time you are 1/2 way through ... you are centered).
If you were traveled out (to reduce angle of attack/power/heeling) and sheeted (relativly) hard ... you will probably want to crack your main a little to reduce the strain being excerted on travler (car and beam and sail). If you don't ease your main and you travel to center (or out for that matter) you will be forcing your travler car to move when physics (friction) doesn't want to move ... so you are overworking something (usually your track and car and ball barings). On my boat, i have an x-track built into my rear beam. if you travel out or under load it pulls the steel wheels against the track so hard it sharpens it to a razor. This will eventually lead to blood (don't aske me how i know). -
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 01:51 PM
Ref you're original question... jibing in big breeze has more risks than tacking and should not be considered a better option. Downwind in big breeze is very exciting but can end in swimming when the bows go in. As pointed out here, boat handling to execute a tack under all conditions should be the focus.
Some basics:
Main sheet tension takes you upwind. You MUST be sheeted on hard going into tacks. You MUST release this just enough to allow the bows to fall off onto the next tack. Or the boat stays in irons and may be too overpowered to accelerate out of the tack.
Traveler is always centered going upwind. Unless you are in really big breeze and your being forced to sheet out to keep the boat down. Sheet tension keeps the sail flat and this is imperative in big breeze. The boat is then de-powered by traveling down. Normally a couple inches works but it's feel. Too much and jib may start dragging the boat over. Traveler MUST be centered going into the tack, pull it in as you turn up and drop it as you bear off.
Backing the jib will drive the boat to a stop or back it down. Reversing the rudders will bring the bows around. But remember, this is a fix for a blown tack not a proper method to tack. The goal is to sail through the tack and not stop the boat.
With very few exceptions, speed is your friend even when it's blowing hard. For this you need crew weight in the right place, ability to steer the boat correctly through the big puffs and shifts and your sails trimmed as flat as possible with sheets and down-haul. As you release the sheet tension the sails get full and this means more power and more drag.
Rick White's book is "required reading" and to really understand and enjoy catamaran sailing time spent with Robbie and Jill @ Redgear Racing is worth 100 times the money spent. I'm just repeating what the Masters have taught me.
Hope this helps.
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 04:24 PM
On the I20 jibing generally must/should be done at high speed otherwise the apparent wind goes up and you go swimming.
Edited by traphappy on Oct 31, 2018 - 05:26 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 07:27 PM
I also had issues with tacking my P19 in high winds. Could never make the turn and always got caught in irons. I had always release the jib as I start into tack. Someone on this site suggested to keep the jib set during tack and only release when mainsail pops on otherside . The jib open to wind pushes cat through the tack. Never had issues after this.
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