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  • Was cruising the internet and found this, may be useful. https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/2017-Portsmouth-Precalculated-Classes.pdf



    Edited by onekiwi on Oct 01, 2018 - 08:57 PM.

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    Carl

    Dart 18x2

    1967 B-LION for sale
    1985 Hobie 18
    Windrider Rave
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  • Thanks icon_biggrin
  • What missing on your B-Lion ? Pete
  • SPEED! It is complete you wanna buy it?



    Edited by onekiwi on Oct 01, 2018 - 03:59 PM.

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    Carl

    Dart 18x2

    1967 B-LION for sale
    1985 Hobie 18
    Windrider Rave
    --
  • How about something a little more modern and regularly updated: https://www.schrs.com/ratings.php



    Edited by wlrottge on Oct 01, 2018 - 05:18 PM.
  • There are a lot more than two ways to handicap sailboat racing.
  • Each have their benefits. I like Yardstick because of the wind range ratings. Single point ratings do not work well with boats of big speed differentials. Think about comparing a floater and a foiler. With a single point, one of them will get hosed in a wind range. I prefer the concept of SCHRS, but not a fan of single point. I have switched my Wednesday Night Races to Yardstick from PHRF because of the multiple ratings. But, we have a provision to adjust ratings as we (RC) see fit in the SIs. It takes the organizations to submit ratings and US Sailing to adjust the performance. It is a lot of work. But, to make racing fair, that is what it takes. If the group of boats racing are very close in rating band, either system works well. It's when you have a Nacra 6.0 racing against a Hobie 16 that makes the ratings tough. But, that is what we have.

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    Scott

    Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
    Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
    Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly" - gone
    Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
    Nacra 5.0
    Nacra 5.8
    Tornadoes (Reg White)
    --
  • texastumaIt takes the organizations to submit ratings and US Sailing to adjust the performance. It is a lot of work.

    Portsmouth is dead. It has not been updated in about 10 years. The person who was responsible for compiling data and updating the ratings passed away and there is no one to replace her. There are no ratings for any of the new boats.

    I did a lot of research on the different systems and found that SCHRS is the fairest and most widely used. ISAF, now World Sailing uses SCHRS.

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    Craig Van Eaton
    West Palm Beach
    Supercat 20
    www.teamcyberspeed.com
    www.sailseries.com
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  • What Craig said; the USSA PN catamaran ratings have not been updated in 10-12 year depending on who you ask. We have tried to work with USSA, but I'm more convinced than ever that they have no interest in supporting multihull sailors.

    Texel and SCHRS both use the same core formula and are therefore closely related. SCHRS also works with RYA to statistically analyze and validate ratings as well as perform an annual internal assessment. You can read the annual review here: https://www.schrs.com/inc/SCHRS_Review_20180129.pdf

    None of the systems are perfect and the wind range rating complaint against SCHRS is somewhat valid, however... the goal is to be a simple to use and maintain rating system where boats are rated fairly over a range of conditions. Unlike US PN, SCHRS and Texel are both transparent, so that sailors can go calculate their own rating instead of waiting for a black box to spit out the answer.

    The argument is, does the level of effort to develop and utilize wind range specific ratings produce enough benefit to the sailors to warrant the effort? Given that most mixed fleet races I've been in don't use the wind range ratings, I don't think it is. Are there areas that present challenges? Yes. There are a couple of boats here in the US that are difficult to fairly rate, but they are very much the minority.

    In the end, do you want to use old ratings where development classes have advanced but the numbers never changed, new boats aren't added and the governing body is unresponsive to the needs of the fleet/community, or something better?
  • Check out our system here: https://sites.google.com/view/communityfleet We all love it, right Pete(?)

    I look at SCHRS and I don't see some of the relative ratings F18 to others to be consistent with my racing/rating experience. But as they say, whatever works best for your particular fleet.

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    dk

    Blade F-16
    Blade F-16 (2nd One)
    Hobie Tiger
    Hobie 14
    Corsair F-242
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  • I read the post from wlrottge again. I would strongly disagree and that wind dependent ratings are very much worth the effort. It allows us to race a very diverse fleet with corrected results that determines winner by mere seconds in many of the races.

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    dk

    Blade F-16
    Blade F-16 (2nd One)
    Hobie Tiger
    Hobie 14
    Corsair F-242
    --
  • DK,

    I have no doubt that your system has some advantages, especially when trying to rate pretty dissimilar boats like your Corsair F-242 and Blade F-16. To that end I think I need to spend more time looking at the how you are crunching numbers, which is all spelled out on your community website. However, after a 5 minute quick glance I was a little overwhelmed. This is from a guy who crunches numbers for a living, and computes SCHRS numbers for our local fleet as well as measures boats. To be fair its already been a long day, but its not a system that is easy to use for different beach cat fleets in different countries. It also doesn't appear to have the thousands of race results SCHRS does to statistically back their rating numbers, and you are reliant on a local PHRF committee to generate numbers. I suspect that you are lucky and have a fair and reasonable PHRF committee, but I have seen that go quite the opposite and really erroneous ratings get generated.

    I should also state that I don't think SCHRS is perfect. I have found a couple of flaws in the published ratings, much of which has to do with discrepancies between boats on different continents. I.e Inter 20's in Europe were sold with a smaller sail plan than the U.S I-20, and we are talking about a 12+ year old boat so its not always easy to trace the history. I also will say that it may not rate boats that are drastically different than an F18 fairly, but I think it tries to do so and in general produces reasonable numbers for beach catamarans.
  • sam,

    Our system doesn't 'crunch numbers'. Our perspective is ratings for 98% of the boats that are in our fleet or likely to be in our fleet have existed for a very long time; even decades. PHRF or PYS, there is usually a starting point for relative speed between nearly all boats. A large percentage of those that do not fall into PHRF or PYS are similar enough to other boats to give a beginning rating. From that point on, for us, it is up to observed performance. If you read our documentation, we have an approach for minimizing the 'probable error' in any one rating. Beyond that, we have discovered that ratings actually impact results less that a need to harmonize ratings between dissimilar boats. We do that with B Factor manipulation. Again, this works for our fleet and the very diverse mix of boats that we see each week.

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    dk

    Blade F-16
    Blade F-16 (2nd One)
    Hobie Tiger
    Hobie 14
    Corsair F-242
    --
  • Take the A class. Now basically 2 boats: floater and flyer. SCHRS accounts for the flyer. US Sailing P/N does not.

    I had the honor and privilege to be one of Darline's "right hand people" back when the newer classes were becoming popular and faster. It was very difficult to generate the needed numbers for ratings evolvement. With everyone sailing in their one design classes, the rating system was very simply and quickly outdated as it remains today. SCHRS is a real good platform to adopt nationwide. Clubs holding on to the US Sailing multihull numbers are living in the past. It's time to move on.

    Bob Curry icon_wink
    Hobie 14, A Class

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    Master UniRig Sailor
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  • I for one will cast my vote for SCHRS; however, it needs to be followed to the letter of the law....

    Showing up for a race and using the same rating with a modified sail plan (read square top vs pin top sail) saying the sail is actually smaller therefore there is no change to the rating will not cut it..

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    John Schwartz
    Ventura, CA

    Current - 1991 Prindle 18-2

    Former Boats:
    1981 Prindle 18 - Sybill
    2005 NACRA F-18 - Wingo Wango
    1999 NACRA Inter 20 - Junk Yard Heap
    1987 Prindle 18-2 - Dip Dung
    1990 NACRA 5.8 N/A - Smoke 6 Oh 6
    1990 Prindle 18-2 - Yea Boy
    1984 Prindle 18 - White Trash
    1986 Prindle 16 - Un-Employment Check
    1985 Prindle 18 - No Name
    1984 Prindle 18 - No Name
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  • SCHRS may be a solution for an all cat fleet but what happens when you mix in some Tris and Monos? I think you pick the system that supports your local fleet.

    At some point in the past, there was a lot of number crunching, measuring, reporting, etc. done to create the numbers that do exist. I don't think a H14 or a H16 has changed so why would their relative speed to other known boats change? If it hasn't changed, why do you need new ratings? If you don't want to alienate the bulk of your existing fleet, maybe its an exercise in figuring a relative speed rating for new boats rather than the other way around. Again, I think it is about the local fleet.

    If you are going to toss it all out and start over then it is tons of work and the "formula" will need to be tested and adjusted as needed to create the correct relativity. Although, when you say you need to adjust, then you get the 'Why' questions and who does the 'tweak' benefit. Its a vicious circle and hats off to those doing the work.

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    dk

    Blade F-16
    Blade F-16 (2nd One)
    Hobie Tiger
    Hobie 14
    Corsair F-242
    --

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