Hull ID# on newly acquired P18-2 getting very faded. Seller had to trace it out with light pencil over piece of paper to make it out. Maybe it was painted over at some point? Afraid it will only get more faded with time though.
This website, http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hin.htm , states:
"Boats manufactured or imported on or after August 1, 1984, also have a duplicate secondary HIN affixed somewhere on an unexposed location inside the boat or beneath a fitting or item of hardware. The purpose is to help authorities identify your boat if a thief or vandals remove or damage the primary HIN on the transom."
Does anyone know or have a suggestion where to look for the hidden, secondary hull ID# on a P18-2? I've already looked inside the hull compartments and found nothing, and I don’t see it anywhere else. Only other place I could conceive would be under the cross beams.
Or is it possible people know but don't want to say? I get the impression the manufacturers keep this info confidential because the whole point is to foil thieves. But since the Prindle mfr is out of business I can't contact them to ask. Maybe someone could offer general suggestions, or private message me?
Thanks for any assistance.
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 25, 2018 - 07:05 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Secondary Hull ID# question
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Posted: Apr 25, 2018 - 12:31 PM
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Posted: Apr 25, 2018 - 02:31 PM
On some boats it is etched into the beam sockets on the hulls. Most modern boats have it glassed into the hull inside the port hole. -
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Posted: Apr 29, 2018 - 02:57 PM
samc99us, thanks a lot for this reply (sorry didn't have a chance to sign in for a few days).
"etched into the beam sockets" - I assume that means under one of the cross beams and that you can't see the number without unbolting and removing the beam. If that's the case, that's pretty impractical and I can see why most modern boats don't do it that way.
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 30, 2018 - 10:45 AM.
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 09:07 AM
That is the entire purpose - the make it hard to find and "change" the numbers in any way
this is a great location imho - not visable (or easy to change) without undoing tramp/beam -
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 11:08 AM
I see your point, and don't dispute that there is a benefit, from the standpoint of theft deterrence, to making it very difficult to access the second hull ID#.
The only thing is, for example: Suppose I want to keep my boat at a public/private beach where I have to pay a fee & register my boat by make/model & hull ID#. (Which is exactly what I'm planning on doing). Some time later, I'm not there, and someone -- like the town officer, marina/club owner or another boat owner -- looks and sees a boat sitting in the yard/beach with a faded hull ID# that they don't think is legible. They question it. Same thing if for some reason I get into a situation, like a collision or accident, where the marine police check my boat and see an illegible hull ID#, and they question it. (Like I said, I have to trace my # w/ a paper/pencil to read it, and I'm afraid it's gonna fade more, because my seller said it's more faded now than when he bought it a year or two ago.)
So now I want to show the questioning person or officer that I'm the legitimate owner and it's not a stolen boat. If the second number were, for example, inside the hull ports (a hidden place not generally known to the public, but that can be accessed with a flashlight &/or mirror pointed in the right direction, or by inserting a phone and taking a flash picture, etc.), I could fairly easily show I'm the legitimate owner & this isn't a stolen boat, because the second number matches my title/registration. (I also made sure to get a paper chain of title, including copies of the matching titles/registrations of the two owners before me.)
As it is, apparently I'd have to take off a beam to show the second #, which I think is a pretty big deal. I don't know which beam, so I might have to remove both. And I'm kind of loath to unbolt the beams from the hulls in any event. The owner's manual talks about how critical it is on initial assembly to lube the cross beam bolts, make sure they are properly threaded/torqued/seated, etc. It made me think taking the cross beams on and off is not something to be messed with lightly. Or is it possible that for you guys with lots of experience owning/restoring/working on your boats, unbolting beams from hulls is not that big a deal(?).
This probably doesn't apply much to small, relatively inexpensive beach catamarans, but when researching this issue, I read it's not uncommon for insurance adjusters, marina owners, marine police, etc. to regularly check the hull ID#'s of boats sitting in boat yards, at marinas, etc. to check whether the boats are stolen.
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 30, 2018 - 12:14 PM.
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 12:46 PM
I think if you surveyed every boat forum on the entire www, i would be shocked if you you ever find a single case of this happening to a beach catamaran sitting at a lot, or on the water.
If your boat is an older boat (where the numbers may be under a beam)
- it becomes even less likely
if you live in a state that requires your boat to be titled, it will have your serial/ registration number and that is the main source of ID. Only in the event your boat is suspect to being stolen would something like this come into play
I am sure this was put into place for boats that are much more likely to theft (where there is much more value) than old/sub $15,000 beach cats
4 bolts per beam isn't too hard to manage
depending on boat you may have to slacken or remove a tramp - also not a big deal
lastly, would you really prefer the numbers hidden somewhere inside your boat?
I doubt the police are going to be too concerned with damage while ripping a boat apart to prosecute a suspected theif -
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 01:19 PM
This never happened industry wide. Boat manufacturers, sail, paddle and motor each had their own hull identifying number sequence, and a common one was never adopted. The hull number in multiple places was adopted by most, but there was no standard multiple locations, and the state agencies mentioned in the article did NOT assume authority for the widely non-accepted standard. A lot of this fell through the cracks when the American yachting industry was destroyed by Congress' excessive taxation in the mid-nineties.
You can't trust everything you read on the web.
If you find a second printing of the hull number somewhere on your Two, it won't have come from the factory.
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Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 02:02 PM
That being said - it would be good to keep a record (and maybe photo) of the original #'s for the day you resell the boat. It's best to have this info on the bill of sale and some states will need this number for registration -
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 02:41 PM
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Posted: Apr 30, 2018 - 05:03 PM
Agreed MN3, Famous Last Words...
Though it was repealed a few years later due to admitted massive failure, the sailboat industry in America had moved offshore, and has never returned.
Sailing as a sport nearly died with it.
Boat Luxury Tax Drives an Industry Aground
https://www.nytimes.com/1…stry-aground-926091.html
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Posted: May 06, 2018 - 11:43 AM
Delayed reply, I know, but I just wanted to thank MN3 and klozhald for the replies.
So if I understand klozhald correctly, there apparently is no secondary hull ID# anywhere on a P18-2.
Assuming that to be the case, I guess removing crossbeams, while apparently not too big a deal per MN3, would become moot.
And it also means when and if my hull ID# becomes faded beyond recognition, I'll have nothing left to ID the boat by (except the registration numbers, of course, but they are just stick-on vinyl numbers). At present, the hull ID# is too faded to show up in a photograph, so I can't preserve a record of it that way.
Think I'm going to find a way to deepen the existing hull ID#. I was afraid of doing that since I was informed by state marine police, and internet research, that: "It is illegal for anyone (manufacturer, dealer, distributor, or owner) to alter or remove a HIN without the express written authorization of the Commandant, U.S. Coast Guard" (language from website mentioned above).
I'm going to take the position that the authorities demand you have a hull ID#, and the only way I can continue to have one is to deepen the existing one, and deepening an existing hull ID# to keep it legible is not "altering" it within the meaning of the law, but rather preserving it.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 06, 2018 - 12:56 PM.
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Posted: May 06, 2018 - 12:57 PM
That is not what i read in his statement
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Not sure what state you are in but states use the VIN (hull number) in conjunction with a registration number (stickers). so if the boat was owned in that state prior to you owning it and registering it ... the state will have a record of the hull id, and the registration numbers already.
So as long as you have the correct info on record now ... you will be fine - you will be fine anyways - this entire premise (your gonna be asked to prove your boat isn't stolen due to faded fiberglass hull numbers) is a non issue
Here in florida they also issue a sticker that proves you have paid your taxes
I wouldn't
I would: use a pencil and create a stencil from the raised numbers
Take a picture of the stencil, hull (with faded numbers) and hold up a date to verify this data with a date
Put this away with your title / safe location just incase you ever need it (sell the boat or other)
IF you TOUCH the numbers, it will be obviously altered and draw all sorts of attention to any boater who walks past it
and if they think it looks suspect, they (big brother) can confiscate your boat until you prove it's yours
if you don't touch the numbers, it's doubtful anyone will ever say a word about your boats faded numbers - and if you have photographic proof of it's current numbers: you will be fine at time of resale
Edited by MN3 on May 06, 2018 - 01:21 PM. -
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Posted: May 06, 2018 - 03:56 PM
I agree, I wouldn't touch the existing numbers, MN3's advice is spot on and I would do just that. I bought my boat in Florida but it was actually registered in Tennessee and had the HIN actually on the registration sticker. My 'Bama registration doesn't have the HIN on the sticker though. Although I can clearly see the HIN on both hulls of my boat, I kept the old Tennessee stickers and put them on my work bench in my storage building.
Edited by martyr on May 06, 2018 - 09:13 PM.
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Posted: May 07, 2018 - 01:51 PM
Can you use a very sharp pencil to trace the numbers in the fiberglass and enhance them a bit for the photograph? Adding a tiny bit of graphite might make a picture work better, and could be easily wiped away after the fact.
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Posted: May 08, 2018 - 12:43 PM
Okay guys, thanks to MN3, martyr and randii for the responses & suggestions. A couple of replies:
klozhald said:
That's the statement from which I concluded that klozhald, who is apprently a P18-2 owner, is saying there is no second hull # on a P18-2, so no sense looking further.
MN3 said: "this entire premise (your gonna be asked to prove your boat isn't stolen due to faded fiberglass hull numbers) is a non issue."
I appreciate your opinion, and would agree that in all likelihood chances are I will not be asked by someone to prove my boat isn't stolen while I'm here in NJ. However, there's a little more to my concerns than that. One concern is ability to resell, when the day comes (hopefully no time soon). When I went to buy the boat I had cash in hand, ready to buy if it checked out. It did check out - except for the faded, virtually illegible hull ID#. I reversed course and held my cash, went home to further study the issue and make sure I wasn't making a mistake, possibly buying a stolen boat or boat I might not be able to register or resell. That's why I almost lost the boat to another buyer. If I had concerns, I think future buyers might as well.
I called state marine police. They are the ones who said "if you acquire a boat with an unreadable hull ID#, we may not be able to identify it if it is stolen." Now maybe you could say that's an unlikely possibility as well, but that came from them, not me, and I still have the issue of resale.
Plus what about being able to take it and register in another state, or sell to someone in another state? I learned on the internet that the State of Florida, for example, has a law that says all boats must display hull ID#'s, and any boat with an unreadable or altered hull ID# is actually considered contraband and may seized. Here is the actual Florida law, Florida State Statute 328.07 (which defines a violation of any of these rules is a 3rd degree felony), you can just focus on the parts in bold:
328.07 Hull identification number required.—
(1) No person shall operate, use, or store on the waters of this state a vessel the construction of which began after October 31, 1972, for which the department has issued a certificate of title or which is required by law to be registered, unless the vessel displays the assigned hull identification number affixed by the manufacturer as required by the United States Coast Guard or by the department for a homemade vessel or other vessel for which a hull identification number is not required by the United States Coast Guard. The hull identification number must be carved, burned, stamped, embossed, or otherwise permanently affixed to the outboard side of the transom or, if there is no transom, to the outermost starboard side at the end of the hull that bears the rudder or other steering mechanism, above the waterline of the vessel in such a way that alteration, removal, or replacement would be obvious and evident. The characters of the hull identification number must be no less than 12 in number and no less than one-fourth inch in height.
(2) No person shall operate, use, or store on the waters of this state a vessel the construction of which was completed before November 1, 1972, for which the department has issued a certificate of title or which is required by law to be registered, unless the vessel displays a hull identification number. The hull identification number shall be clearly imprinted in the transom or on the hull by stamping, impressing, or marking with pressure. In lieu of imprinting, the hull identification number may be displayed on a plate in a permanent manner. A vessel for which the manufacturer has provided no hull identification number or a homemade vessel shall be assigned a hull identification number by the department which shall be affixed to the vessel pursuant to this section.
(3)(a) No person, firm, association, or corporation shall destroy, remove, alter, cover, or deface the hull identification number or hull serial number, or plate bearing such number, of any vessel, except to make necessary repairs which require the removal of the hull identification number and immediately upon completion of such repairs shall reaffix the hull identification number in accordance with subsection (2).
(b) If any of the hull identification numbers required by the United States Coast Guard for a vessel manufactured after October 31, 1972, do not exist or have been altered, removed, destroyed, covered, or defaced or the real identity of the vessel cannot be determined, the vessel may be seized as contraband property by a law enforcement agency or the division, and shall be subject to forfeiture pursuant to ss. 932.701-932.706. Such vessel may not be sold or operated on the waters of the state unless the division receives a request from a law enforcement agency providing adequate documentation or is directed by written order of a court of competent jurisdiction to issue to the vessel a replacement hull identification number which shall thereafter be used for identification purposes.
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Anyway guys, while in practice you might think this stuff isn't a big deal for a small catamaran, if you read the law in a state like Florida, you can see that there's some reason for concern, assuming you want the peace of mind of knowing you're in compliance with the law.
As for my hull ID#'s (what's left of them), they do not protrude from the hull; they are a very faded depressions/engraving that barely, barely show up if you put a light pencil on paper over them. Some of the letters are basically gone even when you do that. I decided to go ahead and buy anyway, because the seller had his title and a copy of the title/registration of the guy he bought it from, plus I thought it was a good deal on a boat I really wanted, & another buyer was breathing down my neck. Figured I'd deal w/ the hull ID issue later.
I will try MN3 and randii's ideas of making a stencil of the depressions, or possibly filling the depressions with light pencil, and then taking a photo and or video of the result, and see what I can come up with.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 08, 2018 - 01:46 PM.
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Posted: May 08, 2018 - 02:27 PM
A few more thoughts...
- based on experience creating and repairing trailers over the years. If you roll into CA DMV with an untitled, unregistered trailer and a weight slip, they will issue you a tag to affix (rivet?) to the trailer tongue.
- I've also gone through the CHP to VIN-verify a salvaged motorcycle I was putting back on the road...
There are exceptional processes to handle weird stuff. Perhaps your state has similar processes for boats that have been repaired (after all, sometimes a hull merits replacement or a transom needs fiberglass work that might obscure the number). A boat repair shop might have thoughts for you, as well.
I'm in the 'just roll with it' camp, but I know some people are more conservative than I am about such things. I bought my Buell without a proper title (long story) and ended up waiting a few months for the state to figure it out and send me a title. It worked out well in the end, but I could have gotten burned. For the price, it was an acceptable risk. YMMV.
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Posted: May 10, 2018 - 04:31 AM
My state does have a procedure for issuing a hull ID# to a boat that for some reason needs one. Like you said, examples would be a boat that is: homemade; or so extensively damaged and repaired that the old ID# is gone; or recovered/salvaged w/o an ID#; etc. The marine division of our state police are the ones who handle those title issues, and they're the ones I contacted to ask about the faded hull ID#.
Unfortunately, they told me that if they got involved the ONLY thing they would do is (after inspection) possibly issue my boat an ENTIRELY NEW hull ID# if they felt it was justified. They would NOT do anything to authorize refreshing, or possibly re-stamping, my existing # in the hull, or possibly authorize affixing a plate w/ my existing # on the boat.
On balance, I thought the idea of getting a new hull# was NOT a good idea. It would wipe out my boat's existing history encoded in the existing ID#, as well as sort of wipe out the chain of title I have (copies of the titles/registration of the last 2 owners showing the original ID#, that match the number that appears on my title). As I'm sure you already know, my hull ID# contains letters/numbers which identify the original manufacturer and the year of manufacture, among other things. Anyone who might want to buy the boat in the future can tell from the existing ID# that it's a Prindle manufactured in 1998. So a new # would wipe all that out. I felt that would be worse than what I have with the faded number.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 10, 2018 - 06:33 PM.
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Posted: May 10, 2018 - 07:52 AM
this is all you need
Edited by MN3 on May 10, 2018 - 11:11 AM.
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