I was out in a nice blow yesterday on Lake Pymatuning on the Ohio, PA border and managed to let my concentration lapse while the sheets were locked in. So over I went for a refreshing summer swim. Nothing alarming but very few boats on the water, and most present were lone occupants or elderly people that could not help. The good news is I am not quite heavy enough to right my 5.7 alone, and the other good news is, it turns out I can still get onboard a capsized and righted cat fairly easily.
Anyway, a righting system is in my future, so I'm looking for some suggestions on either a righting pole or bag system.
The rest of the story...after about half an out in the middle of the lake a couple guys that were fishing noticed the capsized boat and motored over. George and Steve were great guys, and George decided to take the plunge to help me out. George weighs in at a good 350 lbs and has the fitness to match. He hit the water and inflated his CO2 activated life vest which effectively immobilized him. He bobbed to the surface and started pulling him self up over the very front of the bow, so I moved back to counter the weight and keep to hull from sinking. After much sliding, panting and several rests, he made his way to the beam, and with further effort and slipping managed to get to a standing position. I explained the righting procedure, and we both grabbed the righting rope and the boat nearly power-lifted from the water and became upright with both of us under the dolphin striker. I got up on the boat and realized George was not going to be able to do the same. Steve backed the fishing boat parallel to the cat and the boats were facing opposite directions. I just sat on the bow ahead of the beam and hooked a leg into the fishing boat. Steve had one of those net ladders that he dropped over the transom. I had my doubts, but George finally managed to pull himself up and belly-flop into the boat...largest catch of the day!
So these are good times, and new friends were made, but I need a righting system so we don't repeat.
--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--
Capsized
-
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jul 29, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 24, 2024
- Posts: 578
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 09:39 AM
-
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 10:25 AM
I carry a large murry's bag with a 3:1 purchase system
https://www.murrays.com/product/01-3280/
My "system"
after capsize the first thing that should be done (after making sure everyone is ok) is calmly deploy an anchor (calm so you don't foul it as your dropping it)
this will stop your boat from drifting and/or sailing away from your on it's side
this action will also do the second most critical thing to aid in righting... point your bows into the wind
then i furl my jib to decrease the chances of my boat somehow getting air one righted and trying to take off on me (despite that anchor)
I then release my main from the boom (or center my main) - both have advantages and disadvantages
Then it's over to my mast ball area to get my righting line (already tied around the mast ball, stowed in the front tramp pocket) and toss it over the hull in the air - grab my bag and
get on the inner hull, get the bag blocks attached to the loop in my righting line that i already have set (or create one) and fill the bag to capacity
lift the bag out of the water (mid back area) and get the line over my shoulder
Now i hike out as far as possible, hanging on the same line the bag is tied to (if you have a harness on you can tie a loop and use your hook... a great way to save energy/strength) - with good footing i push the bag out and if my mojo is good, and the force is strong: my boat will (hopefully) slowly come up... If all else fails and it wont play nice - i pull out my second water bag - rinse and repeat
I have had a few times when my technique was off, and waves were making it real tough, and wished i had a few more lbs helping me. ... so I carry a second bag. weighs nothing, takes up little room. I haven't needed it yet but I don't mind having it just in case
If you don't carry an anchor - you should think about one -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Nov 25, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 23, 2024
- Posts: 658
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 10:41 AM
Great story, esp power-lifting.
--
John
Nacra 5.0
CT
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Jun 08, 2014
- Last visit: May 15, 2020
- Posts: 57
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 10:55 AM
I'd like to add a righting pole to my Nacra as it seem much faster to use than filling a bag. I'll be interested to see of you add a pole and keep an eye out to see if I add one first (i'll post about it).
I'm glad that it all worked out ok. -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jul 29, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 24, 2024
- Posts: 578
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 11:19 AM
MN3, the Murray's Big Cat righting bag was the first thing I looked at. The price of the Hobie bag ($59) is tempting, but no way to lift it out of the water. I'm also considering a pole system.
I have the Hawaiian righting system on a bungie. It's not hard to deploy, and keeps the deck and tramp pocket clear. No roller furling, but I detach the jib clew and main sheet blocks from the sails. It seems to help with righting, and avoids the boat taking off when uprighted. I don't have an anchor. How is yours stowed? Encouraging to hear the bag system works well...for $225 it should.
Before I was retired a capsize was never a big deal because I usually sailed on weekends when plenty of help was around. It's just time to be fully self-sufficient. I plan on ordering something by next week.
--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 11:44 AM
yea that's one of the drawbacks of an anchor on a beach cat - not always a great way to stow them
,ost of the local mystere guys used to shove it into the tramp front pocket (meant for halyards and other small stuff) eventually it leads to that pocket getting stretched/torn - needing love. Once guy would bungie it to the beam in front of the mast
on my h18 i had an old carry-on bag (similar in design to a lady's purse,but made out of luggage material) that was perfect for a small steel walmart "superhooker" anchor. I would lash that to the front of the tramp. kinda a pita for crew - but it wasn't that big of a deal
on my mystere 5.5- i designed and purchased a custom front tramp for my anchor / light gear
my mystere 6.0 came with a custom hand-made webbing front cargo net attached to the corners of the beam (wings actually) and runs up to the front bridal (actually spin pole but about the same area) - could be "hung" without a spin pole but could get a little loose / wonky in waves
i now carry a#7 alum fortress anchor - http://fortressanchors.com/anchors/fortress with some chain attached to it (alum anchor will glide and not bite into the ground if moving fast enough ) but the superhooker works surprisingly well for something from walmart -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Jul 30, 2012
- Last visit: Dec 02, 2020
- Posts: 61
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 12:13 PM
MN3; I really like the anchor procedure as it accomplishes 2 objectives. I have both collapsible grapple and Danforth and trying to test which holds better in muddy clay of the Chesapeake and tributaries. I believe the answer is the Danforth, but I prefer the stowability of the folding grapple. I also hardilly agree with chain being super important. One big question is the attachment point; although ideal location is bow/bridle, getting it out there seems problematic, especially when retrieving. How about the bitter end being tied off to D.S? Not ideal, but easier location to deploy and recover. What say thee?
--
Todd
Virginia
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 12:42 PM
Thee say:
my original h16 came with a grapple style one - i was told to get rid of it as it would not hold in our sandy/mucky bottoms - but i have no first hand exp w it
I personally don't tie anything to a ds. they are not built to have anything but top-down pressure on them. and probably rare, but if a boat is tied off to it - and is being beat up with wind and wave - and somehow pulls from the middle or bottom of the ds - could bend things down there - and that could lead to ... bad things (i have personally completely taken my ds assembly apart, cut and hand bent a new ds bar to replace a cracked one - its a surprisingly delicate and critical system that handles 1000's of pounds of pressure (but only from one direction)
Also tying a bitter end to a single point of the boat (mast/ds/one hull) is not optimal and depending on your hull shape, and sail plan (furler vs none, etc) your boat may "walk" around Or Worse (swing around slightly wildly at times, until capsize. This can occasionally happen even w a bridal anchor line. if parked next to land (or boat) or in the lea of an island, and everything is perfectly wrong - your boat may dance and require attention) - so IMHO a bridal system is best
It's really not a big deal to handle the anchor even when tied at the bow tips. just takes getting used to. The hardest part is when your getting back on the boat, and in a breeze you have to wrap the line while using your body on the bridals to stop the boat from backing away from you...). Its also not hard to sit on a bow and manage your anchor line and stow it when you have the room to back up a few 100' without worry
I added articulating attachment points (really just a flat shackle) to my bow tang so i could attach an anchor bridal there without massive tugging on the bridals.
I don't really love the constant cycling of that area when on anchor in surf but i only a break on an island or in the gulf on the coast for a little while - and usually not in heavy surf (but occasionally in some pretty good rollers)
Speaking of chain - It's been a while since i inspected mine. was thinking about that on sunday ...on the beach, in my friends work truck as the storm was passing overhead. My boat on anchor about 50' in front of me. Boat got washed and a blow dry (prob lower 20's) - no drama but the wind shifted from a south westerly to an easterly ... and blew my boat off shore (still on anchor but now about 70' from me with the tide almost 1' above the predicted 3' level.
Anyway when i get out there and go to pull my anchor ... it comes up like it was never set (due to the boat shifting 180* and bouncing around a bit)... a little scary
then i looked at my chain - very scary
Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 12:56 PM. -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Jul 30, 2012
- Last visit: Dec 02, 2020
- Posts: 61
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 02:50 PM
MN3; Concurrently agree on all aspects of discussion. I'd taken for granted the stoutly build D.S. until I recalled the force vectors of the design and need not monkey with changing forces it's not designed for. I think I'll rig a 8' bridle using aforementioned shackles and 3/8" DBN which I can end to a plastic thimble and lead back to mast area and afix with short bungee. Next goal will be to test anchoring evolution with mast up (2 hulls) and in capsize position in controled, mild conditions.
After capsize recovery what is your preferred (or easiest) method to reboard? Mostly I duck under hull and use trapeze handle(s) although I sometimes would move to transom on my old H18. I understand wind and waves will often dictate method, but as you know safety is measured against ease of procedure.
--
Todd
Virginia
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:42 PM
My "preferred method" would be something akin to a Pamela Anderson Bay Watch rescue ... in slow mo, or a helicopter assist (via rope ladder like in the movies)
but my "go to method" is to get to the side, bob up for a trap handle, then throw a foot up the gunnel onto the deck
get a second foot up there and skootch/worm my torso onboard -
I now have wings with footstraps (and removed my trapwires) that will change everything - i hope to never learn how to deal with capsizing with that - but ... it's a pretty safe bet that day will come!
If your on a P19 - your in a very similar hull shape and free-board situation to me
i find trying a front beam re-entry difficult almost impossible if i am at all worn out from the righting experience i just had (esp with any wet gear on) . after a feb capsize in cold water with full gear on - i won't try that method again -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:47 PM
I don't think you need to test the anchor capsized, i would give it a very high reliability if it works with the mast pointy side up...
but if you just want the piece of mind, or have some other concerns (shallow waters, full turtle, etc)...
unless you wish to practice your righting skills - which is a good thing to be current on
Other good things to keep in mind when installing an anchor system. (or learn about) are line choice, rode and scope - -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jul 29, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 24, 2024
- Posts: 578
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 04:22 PM
I was surprised I am still able to re-board from in front of the front beam. Basically a pull-up and hook a leg over the bow. I find the boat won't run away when I have a grip on the front brace, but I don't use that to pull myself onboard.
I'm leaning toward the big cat bag, but I don't think I'm going to stow an anchor for my inland sailing.
--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 04:35 PM
ymmv but i personally would use wind speed as a determining factor, not location
if it's honking out - doesn't matter if your in or offshore - an anchor will be valuble in a capsize
if it's not honking - your boat isn't gonna take off at 20 knots (on its side), and it may (or may not) be hard to keep your bows into the wind.
but whatever works for you! -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jul 29, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 24, 2024
- Posts: 578
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 10:42 PM
Point taken. This last capsize, the boat stayed perpendicular to the wind, mast pointing into the wind. Not much I could do to alter that angle. The boat was moving through the water, and I realized very quickly, if it got out of reach, I would be left behind.
Edited by tominpa on Jun 29, 2017 - 11:43 PM.
--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 09:58 AM
often standing on the bows will rotate you into the wind .. but i am sure the mast/main and jib (and the one flopping rudder in the water) could effect this.
Last weekend we were sailing in a glorious 10t to15knot sea breeze and came across a Dart 18 on it's side. (I know the boat very well, as it was recently sold to a very nice newbie (whom i was talking with on the beach waiting for wind) who was out sailing with his young daughter (15ish?).
We have 3 cats circling him (well 2, i was working my way over there) yelling directions to him. Neither of the other boats told him to get his bows into the wind (or he didn't listen) and he was finally able to right that boat - sterns into the wind - of course the main and jib instantly filled and the boat started to take off - somehow they held on and got back on the boat - they were very luck.
I know for a fact that exact boat sails extremely well with no humans onboard (the old owner is a 75 (ish) year old who used to own the local sail shop. a few years ago he sailed right up to me, did a gybe and fell overboard - his boat sailed away. I picked him up and we chased it down.... -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Jul 29, 2015
- Last visit: Apr 24, 2024
- Posts: 578
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:21 PM
I added some weather helm to my boat this year using the spacers in the rudders. It used to sail true and ast and it had taken off at least once and not stopped until it beached.
--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jul 01, 2017 - 07:41 AM
a little weatherhelm is good for that exact reason -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: May 01, 2017
- Last visit: Jul 06, 2020
- Posts: 43
Posted: Jul 01, 2017 - 08:32 AM
If the wind is blowing good when I go out, i usually just drag a shortened ski rope behind me (handle removed). I just keep it tied up under the tramp when not in use. -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: Apr 06, 2024
- Posts: 7088
Posted: Jul 01, 2017 - 10:08 AM
For what? -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: May 01, 2017
- Last visit: Jul 06, 2020
- Posts: 43
Posted: Jul 01, 2017 - 11:02 AM
If the boat wud start to get away from me I pull myself back to it and if its really blowing I barefoot waterski
Users on-line
- 0 users
This list is based on users active over the last 60 minutes.