Samc99us,
Believe it or not, Matterhackers, the company that created the NylonX filament, states that it is a potential replacement for aluminum using 3D printing instead of CNC. This stuff is unbelievably strong, especially when it is printed dense, and I'd be willing to bet that if designed properly, it could hold up to more abuse than a cast part...there is definitely a lot more flex in the material, despite its density (which prevents the shearing or breaking we see in cast parts). If you're into the sort of thing, I have provided you a link with a spec sheet on the filament, just to give you an idea of its properties:
https://www.matterhackers…QUun1GXGpdZ4UyfYAkvnAKdI
As for scanning, it is possible to scan and print something extremely accurate, but the problem is the cost of the scanner...at that level of precision, you can start at $9,000, and go up to north of $100,000 for a handheld scanner...
Tamumpower1,
I am actually working on creating a set of rudder castings with NylonX, to see if it is viable...I have a design already created, but I will obviously have to print, and then test them to see how they perform...I definitely don't mind field testing stuff, so I'll give you all the feed back...
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Eric
1986 NACRA 5.7 #331
I fly seaplanes...and a cat on weekends
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3D Printed NACRA parts
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Posted: May 24, 2017 - 02:58 PM
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Posted: May 24, 2017 - 03:12 PM
As promised...end caps and mast ball...
I used calipers to measure existing parts, and then used Autodesk's Fusion 360 software to design the parts...then sent them to the printer...these are made with the NylonX material we have been discussing...
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Eric
1986 NACRA 5.7 #331
I fly seaplanes...and a cat on weekends
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Posted: May 24, 2017 - 03:56 PM
Let me know when you have yours - i am ready :)
Edited by MN3 on May 24, 2017 - 04:50 PM. -
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Posted: May 24, 2017 - 03:58 PM
Thanks for the data sheet sea_flyer. FYI, That tensile strength number for the Nylon X is 3.1 times weaker than 6061-T651, and the tensile modulus is 10 times lower with corresponding increase in flex. This flex translates directly into helm feel and thus speed. Not a good thing in this particular application; please note this is why EPO rudders blades are all the rage on H16's/H18's and the plastic ones are considered mediocre especially for racing. Your Nacra 5.7 has fiberglass rudders blades that are of comparable stiffness to the aluminum castings, which means well balances strain rates. Using a plastic casting is thus transferring some load back to the rudder head and you could be asking for trouble when that shears off.
Also please note your concerns about flex and shearing in a cast part translates directly to a 3D printed part, if not more so. These parts rely on fusing between layers, and often that is the failure point, not the material itself.
I have limited access to a >$100k SLS 3D printer and it can come close to machined nylon in final part specification, but again this is nowhere near the properties of even lower grade cast aluminum alloys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy#Cast_alloys). If you do go ahead with this, I would print the part such that the sides are flat against the build table, thereby putting the grain at 90 degrees to the shear loading on the casting and reducing that failure mode. Good luck.
P.S: I do think this is useful tech for a lot of parts like the mast ball, end caps, some adjustment screws, possibly the bearing surfaces in newer Nacra rudder parts, stopper balls, lightly loaded latch mechanisms etc. Home 3D printing just won't replace aluminum parts today, but I can see it getting there in another 10 years (some patents have expired that may alloy this). Home CNC machining is there today however :)
Edited by samc99us on May 24, 2017 - 04:18 PM. -
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Posted: May 24, 2017 - 06:27 PM
Samc99us,
Definitely some very valid points/concerns. My original plan was to just print smaller replacement parts for the items already made in delrin, plastic, or nylon, but since the rudder castings were suggested by some other members' posts, I figured I would try it to see if it can be done.
I liked your suggestion about printing it flat against the build table, and plan to do just that. I also plan to use a random/tetrahedral infill pattern, which will definitely help with the strength and any tendency for shear to occur. I have seen some other cats use carbon fiber castings, with carbon fiber rudders, and I wonder that if I print these, perhaps I should switch to a lighter set of rudders? I'm mainly looking for something with a better performance/weight ratio.
I'm definitely not afraid to try out stuff for the sake of science and learning, so I'll be sure to give you guys some more feedback as I progress. If you have any suggestions, please continue sharing...I'm definitely open to those!
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Eric
1986 NACRA 5.7 #331
I fly seaplanes...and a cat on weekends
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Posted: May 24, 2017 - 09:08 PM
They look great! Would you be willing to share those designs with us please? I appreciate that you spent time and energy creating the designs so I absolutley understand if you dont wish to do so.
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Posted: May 25, 2017 - 10:15 AM
sea_flyer,
Switching to a lighter set of rudder blades (carbon) isn't going to help the situation. Carbon is significantly stiffer than glass or nylon (its close to that of steel, and can exceed it if it's a high quality aerospace pre-preg built with expensive high modulus fibers) and will transfer all the rudder load through your castings to your pintails to the transom of the boat. Personally I wouldn't waste my time trying to print a set of castings. Maybe if you use your Marked Forge and did it in 3D printed full carbon you would get someone reasonable.
You would have to build something on the order of double the thickness of the original castings to even get close to aluminum using your NylonX material, even at 100% infill. FYI, I've printed with most of the materials you are playing with, and have run print jobs in excess of 36 hours on a consumer FDM machine-we were on a deadline to get to a test event and it was the only way to get some fairing parts done in time. They are not the same, even the carbon impregnated variety, as the SLS nylon prints I do somewhat regularly. None of these compare with aluminum in terms of stiffness or strength. I'm not sure how the Marked Forge prints compare, but they have some big name sponsors and users and I suspect some MIT grads working for them, so I suspect their Oynx parts are up there. -
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Posted: May 25, 2017 - 11:41 AM
Out of curiosity, what kind of price-point would the end-caps have to make it worthwhile printing some?
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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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Posted: May 25, 2017 - 03:03 PM
We could just take the 3D printed part, cut it in half and use it to make a sand mold then slap a little molten aluminum in there. Everyone's got a backyard foundry right...? Would only need about 1300 degrees F -
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Posted: May 25, 2017 - 03:34 PM
Samc99us,
Definitely great info, and thank you for sharing your experiences...I think the biggest problem I would have printing the rudder castings is the sheer build size...neither one of my printers has the build volume necessary to print one in one piece. I did successfully design a set in Fusion 360, but I just don't have the volume to print them. Some of the newer MarkForged printers could do it though...I'd be especially interested in the Onyx...I've looked at upgrading my printer to the version capable of doing Onyx, but there is a wait time, and considerable price attached, so I don't think I'll be able to try that until later this year, when I have a month to spare sending it in.
Aquaddict,
I'd be happy to share the .stl file with you...if you'd like to shoot me a PM with your email, I can email it to you.
Tominpa,
I'm able to print a set of these end caps (2) for about $10...extremely reasonable...they take about 2-3 hours to print. Definitely worth the effort, IMHO.
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Eric
1986 NACRA 5.7 #331
I fly seaplanes...and a cat on weekends
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Posted: May 25, 2017 - 08:18 PM
I just got my folgertech FT5 up and running and have a 34+ year old G-cat. Ancient castings are only 1 of many projects i am considering. with a 12x12x16.5 inch build volume this thing is amazing! Retail kit is like $499 BTW so not crazy expensive. New filaments are coming out every day that have some pretty amazing properties. i recently found a "print and bake" aka annealing filament that may well exceed aluminum castings when they were new and didn't have a dozen repairs LOL. You are spot on in print strengths being related to orientation during print but i believe this tech may alleviate that issue altogether. If you are willing to share your STL,s I would greatly appreciate it. I will certainly do the same but am not at all familiar with cad yet so tinker cad is about all i can handle at the moment. you can reach me off list at pds624@gmail.com oh and i see your boat but what kind of printer do you have? :)
Edited by PAUL624 on May 25, 2017 - 08:20 PM. -
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Posted: May 25, 2017 - 08:33 PM
they have dissolvable filaments too so perfect for 1 piece molds. no need to cut things up and put them together again... -
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Posted: May 26, 2017 - 11:34 AM
Even if you have the build volume, prints like this take a significant amount of time. Time is money (in the real world, I would estimate a 3D printed nylon rudder casting is on the order of $800-$1200 depending on turnaround time and vendor). You aren't going to be able to compete with production castings at home in your garage. 3D printing is nice for iterating through prototypes or fabricating extremely complicated shapes that would otherwise require 5 axis machining. Its coming along to where it may replace castings and metal parts in certain applications, but not all. Every technique has limitations, its knowing those limitations that pay big $.
The end caps are nice, as you can custom print your own with different holes for various control lines. -
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Posted: May 26, 2017 - 12:21 PM
yes, printing anything of size and hi res takes time. i did a print recently that was about 15 inches tall and 5x5 took 47+ hours to complete ugh. that said, it took about 10 minutes to set it and forget it. The waiting is the hardest part LOL. For me 3d printing is both a hobby and a tool. Being able to go from idea to finished part in the same day is awesome and my house is slowly filling with little life hacks at no extra cost. My nephews are another story all together. they run print farms and have literally made millions off this tech. It is possible to turn a profit but certainly not easy. i would estimate 95% of the time is cad design. My printer kit was 500 bucks and i got some amazing upgrades for another 1000. total investment of less than 1500 for a machine like this would easily retail for thousands more as a finished product. I can print pretty much everything but poly-carbonate now. That upgrade would cost me about 50 bucks but i dont currently see a need for it as the new materials don't need 300C temps to print. considering the endless applications, you cant beat the bang for the buck no telling how much time and money this saves me in the long run. I am well versed in glass work and can tell you for sure and for certain this is way easier and far less toxic to work with! BTW, DARPA is currently working on a moon base concept for a 2020 mission to bots and 3d printer will build the base. You should also check out the tech behind 3d printed cars. industrial size machines that can make anything. The russians have been 3d printing structures in concrete for years. Yes there are UV stable and temp resistant materials coming out every day. PLA is cheap and eco friendly so good for test prints at a minimum. this printer tech has been out for a long time but IMHO the filament market is where the magic is happening at the moment. -
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Posted: May 26, 2017 - 01:27 PM
sounds like my first renders in 3d studio max a few dozen years ago. -
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Posted: May 26, 2017 - 01:32 PM
they already have cell phone apps that will render 3d... not long now till quality scanners are available at reasonable prices even to us lowly end user\consumers -
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Posted: May 26, 2017 - 06:01 PM
Great thread!! Keep it up guys.
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Philip
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Posted: May 31, 2017 - 10:19 AM
You need to make the larger 1.5" ball with the old nacra thread on it. I'd buy one. That way for me to update to a captive system I don't need to get a new dolphin rod to accept the newer ball. -
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Posted: May 31, 2017 - 11:00 AM
Any chance of 3D printing a mast cradle to fit the rear bem with traveler rail, and mast radius? I'd love to have something for the 5.7. If you make it, we will buy.
Edited by tominpa on May 31, 2017 - 12:02 PM.
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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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Posted: May 31, 2017 - 11:13 AM
sorry guys but i dont have time to do design work. get me and stl file and i will print it at cost for friends no problem but i have a 34+ year old g cat so cant buy parts and have a list of things yet to design there already LOL
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