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Roll Swaging vs Ferrule and Thimble  Bottom

  • After putting considerable time and some expense into the Prindle 19 restore, decided I didn't want to fork over the bucks for all new rigging until I did some light sea trials on the boat to determine if it was a good boat to sink more money into.

    I probably would have gotten away with this, had it been a light day. But it wasn't, and after a couple of hours of fun, I snapped a shroud and lost the rig. Surprisingly, there was very little damage save for some scratches on the mast.

    In the past, I've made my own trapeze wires on the rigging bench at West Marine, but never any standing rigging. The boat has thimbles and ferrules on the top end and roller swages on the lower end. A sail shop owner was at the ramp when I came in and he inspected the break finding all the corrosion inside the wire, with no external indicators. I mentioned to him that I was considering making my own rigging and he strongly advised to go with roller swages from Murrays.

    I have always trusted Murrays and will probably go this route. But I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts on the ferrule/thimbles compared to the roller swages. One aspect I find significant is that, given there is a ferrule/thimble on the top end, I don't see any strength compromise in putting the same thing on the lower end. They could possibly be even less prone to corrosion without the channel for moisture to collect in, and easier to inspect.

    Thoughts?

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Hobie 18 "Cheap Thrill"
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    --
  • I don't have any opinion on your current question, but I did purchase new rigging from Murrays this year during the Rigging sale. Did the failure occur within or at the end of a ferrule or along the wire?

    --
    Tom
    NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
    Pennsylvania
    --
  • It was a swage connection, not a ferrule. The failure occured at the very top of the swage, where there was corrosion inside the wire down into the swage. See the end marked as "Marine Eye" in the link below:

    https://www.murrays.com/w…2016/11/Shroud_BK_RS.jpg



    Edited by mattson on May 12, 2017 - 12:03 PM.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Hobie 18 "Cheap Thrill"
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    --
  • i have found little or no performance difference.
    i have had both fail on me - sometimes with some rust visable, other times none at all.

    the thimble/ferrule method is cheaper than an airplane fitting (Roll Swaging - not sure how it got its airplane name) and in the event of a side-chain plate failure (i've seen a few of them break during use) if you can catch it before it totally fails, you can lash the stay to the stay-tang (with a shackle) and save your rigging for a swim.

    so for those 2 reasons (cheaper, lashable) i have given up on the airplane fitting

    https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Swaged-Rigging-Terminal-Failures-Raise-Concern-11962-1.html
  • Thank you for the article. The owner of SLO Sails and Canvas was at the ramp and was inspecting the break. As supported in your link, he mentioned that the tolerances for the swaging equipment is outrageously precise. He had some equipment that was out of tolerance by a miniscule amount, and would not use it, recommending Murrays as a good source.

    He frowned on the idea of me making my own rigging with ferrules. Since the discussion, I have more questions. The biggest one being why ferrules at the lower end would be inferior if they are already used at the top. I'm thinking weakest link here.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Hobie 18 "Cheap Thrill"
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    --
  • I think you hit the nail on the head - the shroud is going to break at the weakest link, so even if the roller swaged aircraft eye (or fork) is stronger, if you have a thimble/nico-press sleeve at the other end, it doesn't really matter. If the nico-press sleeve is weaker, that's where the wire is going to break (although I guess some could argue that by reducing from two nicro-press sleeves to one, you have cut the odds of a failure by 50%).

    I've occasionally considered sealing the exposed areas of the swaged fittings with silicone or epoxy or using adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing over the fitting to prevent moisture from getting inside and causing corrosion.

    The other thing that is never discussed or advertised is what grade of stainless steel wire rope is being used. The two most popular options would be either 304 or 316, but the manufacturers don't state which is used. 316 has significantly better corrosion resistance than 304 (and is therefore more expensive). I would think using 316 stainless would probably be more significant than what type of fitting is being used.

    sm
  • I'm wondering if any specific tolerances apply to the nicopress assembly? For trapeze wires, I've just used the hand tool at West Marine. As far as the grade of stainless, I've never paid attention to it. I DID purchase diamond wires for my Hobie 18 from Murrays. The old ones looked fine but were old. The new ones looked corroded on the surface within a month or so in mast up storage at the harbor. Disappointing.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Hobie 18 "Cheap Thrill"
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    --
  • QuoteI've occasionally considered sealing the exposed areas of the swaged fittings with silicone or epoxy or using adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing over the fitting to prevent moisture from getting inside and causing corrosion.

    Rubaweld (rigging tape) claims to be good for this
    however - i am not certain it would help. Seems that most of the hardware failures i see are in sealed areas (bow and side stay tangs that are sealed in deck glue, hobie stay anchors that seem to break off in spots where there is no o2, etc).

    Maybe i will do one side and see which breaks first
  • QuoteI'm wondering if any specific tolerances apply to the nicopress assembly?

    Nicopress makes a "go no go gauge" for checking the pressed sleve. If you are doing your own swedging it's a must have item.

    http://www.nicopress.com/…sories?type=Tool%20Gauge

    Quote(Roll Swaging - not sure how it got its airplane name)


    Their original purpose was for aircraft rigging, both for control and guy wires.
  • The more I research this, the more I think I'll just leave it to the pros and trust their equipment.

    Btw, I priced all the components to make trampeze wires vs. Murrays, and I save about $2, and have to reuse the old handles. This one's a no brainer.

    Also, on the H18, I covered the tops of the swages with rigging tape, and have not had a failure. But sometimes I wonder if I am keeping the water out, or just helping to hold it in.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Hobie 18 "Cheap Thrill"
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    --
  • QuoteAlso, on the H18, I covered the tops of the swages with rigging tape, and have not had a failure. But sometimes I wonder if I am keeping the water out, or just helping to hold it in.


    do you sail in salt or fresh water?
  • Other options:

    Salty Dog Marine
    https://www.saltydogmarin…ce74f5632e041b066dcc7408

    APS
    http://www.apsltd.com/rigging-splicing-services/

    I have used Salty Dog many times for rigging, including my current set.
    APS occasionally offers a sale on rigging.
    Both are good quality, as is Murrays.

    --
    Sheet In!
    Bob
    Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
    AZ Multihull Fleet 42
    (Way) Past Commodore, Prindle Fleet 14
    Arizona, USA
    --
  • MN3
    QuoteAlso, on the H18, I covered the tops of the swages with rigging tape, and have not had a failure. But sometimes I wonder if I am keeping the water out, or just helping to hold it in.


    do you sail in salt or fresh water?


    The salty stuff.

    --
    Bill Mattson
    Hobie 18 "Cheap Thrill"
    Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
    --
  • I stick with the Nicopress idea (thimbles and ovals) primarily because it's cheaper. I recently replaced all of my standing rigging and at the onset of the decision considered going the DIY route, but Murray's price was reasonable so I chose to buy not make plus I've never had a piece of crappy rigging from them. Murrays built and shipped the rigging the same day and it was of custom lengths (no I don't work for Murrays). My order arrived in 3 days and was dead perfect. I checked the pull to pull lengths and they were all within 1/16" which is within the range of measurement error. The only thing I don't like about thimbles and and ovals is the little flare at the end which is VERY hard on your body should you slide in to it!

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=127731&g2_serialNumber=3

    --
    Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
    MacGregor 25 (formerly)
    Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
    NACRA 5.0 (currently)
    High Point, NC
    --
  • QuoteThe only thing I don't like about thimbles and and ovals is the little flare at the end which is VERY hard on your body should you slide in to it!

    why not use shroud coves? - they may save some blood in a capsize and may prevent a ring ding from snagging on your shorts
    https://www.murrays.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/01-107.jpg
  • MN3why not use shroud coves?


    I've always used them on my shrouds and they are quite a scar saver. I have the nicopress/thimbles on my bridle wires too so that flare is exposed there. Wrapping them with rigging tape helps.

    --
    Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
    MacGregor 25 (formerly)
    Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
    NACRA 5.0 (currently)
    High Point, NC
    --
  • prost
  • Quote (Roll Swaging - not sure how it got its airplane name)

    Before fly-by-wire, all planes, (and small airplanes today) used cables to control critical moveable flight surfaces, think ailerons, rudder, elevator.
    The early bi-planes wings were quite thin, & not strong enough to support flight loads, so they used cables & wires to turn the wings into sort of a truss. Some of the early ones were more wire & string than airplane.
    http://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/spinne%20x%20147.jpg
    They also have to often fit into fairly tight spaces, & they must be 100% dependable.
    An aircraft rudder works much the same as your Cat rudder. It would be rigged with a short crossbar mounted perpendicular to the rudder. On each end of the crossbar a cable would be attached via fork/pin. These cables would be routed through bell cranks & pulleys back to the cockpit controls, with each fitting safety wired.
    Often turnbuckles were used to allow for fine tuning, so your rudder pedals & control yoke were not cockeyed, & to adjust tension in cables.
    With most aircraft swages a preservative compound is applied to the cable before insertion into the terminal barrel.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • Edchris177
    Quote (Roll Swaging - not sure how it got its airplane name)

    Before fly-by-wire, all planes, (and small airplanes today) used cables to control critical moveable flight surfaces, think ailerons, rudder, elevator.
    The early bi-planes wings were quite thin, & not strong enough to support flight loads, so they used cables & wires to turn the wings into sort of a truss. Some of the early ones were more wire & string than airplane.
    http://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/spinne%20x%20147.jpg
    They also have to often fit into fairly tight spaces, & they must be 100% dependable.
    An aircraft rudder works much the same as your Cat rudder. It would be rigged with a short crossbar mounted perpendicular to the rudder. On each end of the crossbar a cable would be attached via fork/pin. These cables would be routed through bell cranks & pulleys back to the cockpit controls, with each fitting safety wired.
    Often turnbuckles were used to allow for fine tuning, so your rudder pedals & control yoke were not cockeyed, & to adjust tension in cables.
    With most aircraft swages a preservative compound is applied to the cable before insertion into the terminal barrel.

    Thanks Ed! interesting
  • Nice explanation Ed.



    Edited by leeboweffect on May 19, 2017 - 12:17 PM.

    --
    Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
    MacGregor 25 (formerly)
    Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
    NACRA 5.0 (currently)
    High Point, NC
    --

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