I have done extensive searches and am looking for clarification...?
Why are cats not not wider?
Why not a 10ft wide P16 for example?
I assume that it is not done because:
i) its inconveneint
ii) its heaver
iii) the people who race do so within strict class rules and the ones that dont are less bothered about performance and more about the above two factors.
iv) the rig size is small enough that unless wind condiftions are extreme the righting moment can be satisfied by typical crew weight hanging on the wires.
However, for a light crew this might not be the case,
Just thinking outloud and hoping someone will chime in.
175lbs newbie with 80lb daughter and P16
thanks
Mike
wider is better?
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**unknown user**
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 05:40 PM
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 06:34 PM
Mike, Welcome to TheBeachcats.com!
It's all about trailering. In the US there is both a federal max-width of 102 inches (2.6 meters) for commercial vehicles and then each state has their own law. In every case but Hawaii the states use the Federal guidleline of 102 inches.
That's why you end up with three high performance racing classes that all have about the same width despite being 16, 18, and 20 feet long.
F16 = 2.5 meters or 8 feet 2.43 inches
F18 = 2.6 meters or 8 feet 6.36 inches
Nacra 20 = 2.6 meters or 8 feet 6.36 inches
There have been wide beachcats, the famous Tornado was 20 x 10 feet, and recently Nacra introduced the Nacra 20 Carbon which is 20 x 10.5 feet, and then there were the 18 Squares which were very wide because they were a single handed class with very few rules.
But living with a 10 foot wide boat just introduces something extra to deal with
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 07:39 PM
You could watch the classifieds on this site for someone parting out a P-18-2 or P-19, buy their crossbars for, say $100 each, shipping via UPS about $35 ea & widen out the tramp 6" (about $30). So for around $300 you'd have a 8.5' wide P-16. Pete -
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 07:53 PM
With 175 pound skipper and an 80 pound crew - you're in good shape for a p-16. You'll have fun once/if you learn to sail the boat.
I just sailed Barnegat bay this evening with my 16 year old daughter (110 pounds) and with my 165 we had a great time in 15+ south wind!
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Rob Jones
1976 Yellow p-16 - parts is parts - hulls cut up
1978 Yellow p-16 - in good working order
1979 White p-15 - parts is parts - hulls cut up
1985 White p-15 - good working order
1982 White NACRA 5.8 - project boat.
1986 White p-16 - in good working order
1975 White Hobie 3.5 - PM me if you want it
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 07:55 PM
Yep it's all about the trailer. I wouldn't want to trailer anything wider than 8' 6" that almost takes up the whole road as it is. Also realize that the rigging for each boat is sized with the amount of righting moment for that width (plus a pretty large safety factor). So widening the boat could cause you to need larger diameter rigging (probably only about 1/32"). At 170 lbs with a child you should be fine with width of the P16, but you may need a righting bag to right it. Teach the daughter how to trapeze and you will be able to handle even higher winds, and the kid won't ever want to sail without being on the trapeze.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 09:50 PM
Trailering is indeed the practical limitation. If you can leave a boat set up for the season, then you can take advantage of the additional righting moment of a wide boat. Broader beam gives a higher upper wind range for a boat of a particular length. Eventually, you'll be limited downwind by the leeward bow wanting to go down. I love wide boats, I currently have an 18 square, two Supercat 20s, and an ARC 22, all with big beams.
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 11:27 PM
Just curious, but if you wanted to go wider than the 8 1/2ft that the P18-2 and P19 would enable, how do you deal with the traveller track? It looks like a custom extrusion that is not easily substituted...
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Posted: Aug 16, 2013 - 03:16 AM
I trailer my wide cat all the time.
From outside to outside of my side guide rollers is only 10' 3 1/2"
When the road narrows just closes your eyes and drive faster....
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Bill 404 21SE
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Posted: Aug 16, 2013 - 05:28 AM
several guys around here have mystere 6.0xl's
they come with wings and 2 sets of beams 8.6' and 10' beams
they also come with a extra wide tramp to use with the 10' beams
I have skippered the 10' beams in 25knots
sailed like a dream - never got over powered
i have also spanked better sailors on 10' beams in light wind... they paid for the extra weight and slower tacks
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**unknown user**
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Posted: Aug 16, 2013 - 10:00 AM
Bill,
It's not very often that one sees relativistic effects when trailering. You must drive fast.
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Posted: Aug 16, 2013 - 09:07 PM
it's also about optimal righting moment and tacking ability
my 8.5' wide old nacra 5.2 is perfect solo for the generally light air lake i sail on
cats go most efficiently flying 1 hull
around 8kn winds i can go upwind flying 1 hull if i come in off the hull and sit on the tramp
10kn, i sit on the hull to fly
12kn it's in windsurf harness on the trap just out from the hull
15kn it's right out on the trap
it's very rare the winds go much above that and that the extra righting moment of a 10' wide hull would be worth the penalty in being unable to fly the hull in lighter winds
then there's the slower tack times of wider boats
seems to me that cat width of half hull length is about perfect. no compromise needed for 16 + 17' cats
but when you get above 18' cats could be a little wider
but the hassle in trailering means it's not worth it -
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Posted: Aug 17, 2013 - 09:23 AM
Beardy,
I always mix Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant with my fuel in my tow vehicle.
('93 Chev Suburban with 328,494.8 miles on it)
It drives so fast that I get tomorrow news today on my radio....
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Bill 404 21SE
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Posted: Aug 19, 2013 - 02:49 PM
On the beam width question, I believe someone (maybe Bill Roberts) may have opined that a beam greater than 1/2 of the LWL would cause a boat to pitchpole before it flipped to leeward when powered up (or, perhaps overpowered).
Can anyone substantiate this theory?
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Stank
SW FL area (water's too cold up north)
Boatless wonder
Endless poster
Disgracer of many beachcat classes
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Posted: Aug 19, 2013 - 03:35 PM
I agree with Bill. I tow my 21 se wide to the different events we sail at, but most of the time it sits on the beach ready to go. I feel the only disadvantage is it is so darned fast we end up running circles around most of the smaller cats. Very stable and have buryed the bows like the A/C 72 did the other day and they just pop right back up. Go wide- go fast -
have fun!!!!
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Ted
Hobie 21SE Feral Cat
Upstate NY lake sailing
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