Okay, I join Venora in that I flipped my boat for the first time. And the kicks just kept coming...
I took my son out (19yr old) for first time. I'm trying to help him understand how to hang off the trapeze and don't pay attention to the wind...we unitentionally tack...he's hanging off the wrong hull now...oh god...scramble to top, lean over hull (Dad, what do I doooo?!!! Unhook. How?! Just do!)....oh no....jump away from the dagger board...splash!
After we regoup I'm secretely relieved to have faced my big fear...we flipped the boat and no worse for the wear...and it was kind of fun. We threw the rope over the hull and leaned with all of our might. The sail came flat, but we could never get it to break. A boat stopped by and hooked on, but only dragged us closer to shore and the sail/mast went further under water until touching bottom or lake.
At some point I noticed one of the dagger boards had disappeared...f%$@#! The nice people in the boat said they saw it float away about 10 minutes earlier (wish they would have said something....argghhhh)
Prior to us getting to shore I tried to swim to the top of the mast and release the ring that holds the sails to the top of the mast. But my son wasn't heavy enough to keep the mast near the surface and I couldn't dive deep enough, for long enough to unhook.
Was going to call someone to help, but water proof zip lock bag not waterproof...iphone ruined...no phone. I finally swam .5 mile to shore (helps to be a ironman triathlete), then swam across an inlet (another .5 mile), then drove to marina for help. Owner of marina willing to help (helps that I store my boat there), but had to listen to some anonymous a$$hole tell me what I did wrong and that I need to cut the main halyard. I tried to explain that the Nacra 5.8 is different...it has a ring that hooks at the top of the mast and that uncleating the halyard will have no effect (in fact, it isn't cleated at all)...all the while he isn't listening but looking at me with pity in his eyes because I'm so clueless and dumb.
By the time me and John get out there so he can take a stab and righting the boat two Sheriff's boats were already onsite helping my son. They were apparently more powerful and the boat uprighted.
But...one of the hulls had taken on a lot of water as was very low in water and I couldn't get main head ring to release...tried for ten minutes...hands bleeding...I'm exhausted...and then finally it worked. When the main came down I found the reason why - caked in mud. They dragged me to shore and I get the boat on the trailer. Pull the plugs and remove inspection port covers...water comes gushing over top. Takes 15 minutes to drain. Get sail on ground and notice that the rivets holding the head plate have sheared and the whole plate will likely need to be reassembled.
A little bit of good news...while we both lost our sunglasses, the first people to help us cruised around and found the dagger board. Second, while upside down I had my first real good look at the bottom of the hulls and think I know where the leak is coming from (soft spots and cracking).
I read Venora's post so won't ask the same questions about why we couldn't right the darn boat. We should have a water bag as my son is 140lb at best...that way he could keep the mast level while I swim it around into wind. Maybe then we could have released the mian ring hook, and at the least should have released the outhaul. Then maybe with both of us on rope and extra weight of water bag, all would have been right. I'm also suspicious that the extra water in hull didn't help matters either.
I'll admit that I'm a little scared of going through all of this again...I had visions of having to leave my boat out there. I think it is about time I hook up with some pros like Uwe and his buddy Pono this weekend and learn a few more ropes.
In addition to looking for sail repair, I think the starboard hull is taking on too much water and I might need to fix it sooner rather than later. But maybe I can just do a temporary repair to keep me on the water for the summer until I can overhaul everything the right way in the winter.
I obviously have much to learn...just needed to vent about what wonderful and crappy day yesterday was. My son got really negative and wouldn't stop complaining...I had to explain that we are okay, and I'd rather be floating on an upside down boat in the sunshine that sitting on my couch watching mindless dribble. This is how you get stories to tell...by living them.
Jeremy
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Jeremy Soder
Nacra 5.8
Allen, TX
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Popped Cherry
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 08:23 AM
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 09:19 AM
Sounds interesting for sure. Hard to recoup confidence of you kids when stuff like hat happens. Best thing is to arrange a support crew and run practice righting with them when your boat ISP ack on the water. Make sure main, traveller an jib are all uncleted. You should have had enough weight I think. Shallow lakes where the mast can dig in can be troublesome.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 09:53 AM
It likely won't get worse than that inland. Your leak could be anywhere on the hull, lots of them take in more water when turtled. I'd check the dagger well, though, those are pretty common culprits.
Instead of swimming the mast, just stand on the bows. The extra drag from your weight will force the rest of the boat to trail and the bows will end up pointed into the wind. Tri-athlete or not, all of that swimming will really wear you out, and you never know what else is in store, so it's good to keep your strength.
What do you use to hold the daggers in place?
Be wary of people offering help -- you need to instruct them as to exactly what you want them to do. It's easy to be relieved to have help and assume that the helpers know what they're doing, but that's rarely the case. You can end up with a destroyed boat, or worse, if you're not somewhat diligent.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 09:55 AM
While lorwering the main may make the boat easier to right.. You are faced with the problem of raising it .. wet and soggy and tired in the center of the lake. (Both the sail and the crew are wet and soggy) The main can be a great help in righting if pointed into the wind once the main sheet and jib sheet are released.. Once the mast is level with the water and all the water has drained from it.. the sail can help get the boat over. My son has a 5.8. He is my size.. 210 lb (I am a bit more now Bill ). His wife is 100 to 110 on fat days (My guess). They have righted the boat on several occasions.. A water bag with the block setup is handy but I would go for a righting pole setup. Not sure a crane would have helped with a hull full of water though.. And fix the hulls.. Hal
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Hal Liske
Livermore CA
H 16 (6+ 1.. Friends) H 3.2 N 5.2 (2) H 17 (2) H-18
Nacra 5.8 (son's) H 20 (Friends)
It's a Sickness
I Need a A Cat Please
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 11:43 AM
You ordeal sounds horrible, but i guess its good to have those experiences (i've had plenty myself) and it makes for great stories and learning expeirences.
I felt the same exact way!
My worst fear when flipping a catamaran! sounds like you could use a mast float... you can make a homemade one for pretty cheap.
I am not too familiar with the nacras but a very common place to leak on some other boats is in the seam between the deck and lower hull. (your's might be all one peice) If it's not leaking too much when its upright but it took on a lot of water when it was on it's side its a safe bet your problem is above the water line. To find the leaks you can take a shop vac, put the hose on the outlet side (so it blows air) and have someone hold it up to the drain plug hole. Take soapy water and spray it around the suspected leak areas and then look for bubbles. Some silicone may seal it enough to get you through the season.
Good Luck!
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70's 18' Sol Cat "Venora"
70's 18' Sol Cat "Bumblebee"
60's 14' Sailstar Tallstar sloop "Arandora"
Heber City, UT
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 03:48 PM
that sucks
beach cats are like motorbikes in many respects
even the passenger has to be an active component in their control and be prepared for a chance of sliding down the road and the need to be part of the recovery after an accident
blunted, a C-cat owner, posted this video on youtube a few days ago. after watching the pitchpole a few times watch the background and the mono dinghy that gets slammed flat in the same gust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ohSVlhVy4
a friend told me of the 3 levels of experience of a sailor
1. sailing and watching the view
2. sailing and watching the sails
3. sailing and watching the wind
oh and the $300,000? C-cat's wing got slightly damaged and will be in the shed for a few weeks for carbon and film repairs
Edited by erice on Jul 05, 2012 - 03:51 PM. -
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 04:13 PM
Oh my goodness! I recently had my first capsize (solo!) but it wasn't anything near as bad as that. As long as everyone is okay it's just a great story. I also completely agree with you about the adventure aspect - the good stuff doesn't happen on the couch.
I was quite apprehensive about capsizing and it happened SO fast. That moment when I realized I was actually going over was pretty tense. I quickly got the righting line over the hull and leaned out, right out on the very end of the dagger board. Nothing. I uncleated the main, traveler and jib, tried again. Still nothing. Tried to radio the club but on weekdays no one is there. Also no one on the water. Hmmm. Due to the windage of the tramp I start drifting slowly towards the rocks about 1km away. However, the water is warm, the sun is shining and I'm not hurt.
I try for about 20 mins to right it (F18) on my own and radio someone at the club. No dice. At this point I've been blown about halfway in towards the rocks and am getting a bit nervous. I issue an all stations request for assistance on the radio. Not an emergency but still - I need some help. The CG respond but the police are closer. After another 20 minutes they show up, lift up the end of the mast and I'm up.
Not a scary experience but sobering and a bit embarrassing. Now I have the large righting bag onboard and I'm eager to try it. I was a bit amazed that I could float along with the boat on it's side for so long. I guess I thought the weight of the sail/mast would eventually turtle the boat, but it didn't.
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 06:09 PM
My sailing back with minimal wind against a strong current is looking like a really good day out now. I would inspect your mast for any unfilled holes as the mast seemed to go down (turtle) pretty quickly. Seal all your holes, rivets, and seams with a silicone or other waterproof caulk. This will help prevent the mast from filling with water and will make it much easier to right. I agree with Rob that standing on the bow of the hull that is in the water, while holding the righting line to help you balace, should let the wind blow into the tramp and rotate the sail into the wind. It is then much easier to right the boat as when the wind gets under the sail it helps to raise the mast. Once the boat appers to be coming over make sure you get under the boat between the hulls and grab the dolphin striker to help prvent the boat from again tipping over again. Also I always uncleat the gib, main (from the cleat at the blocks), and traveler before I right the boat.
Edited by spoulton on Jul 05, 2012 - 07:11 PM.
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Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 09:23 PM
Catjunkie - all the same thoughts and fears...very embarrassing...LOL. Yurdle - not even sure what they should do...I think maybe they were not tugging hard enough...I should have told them to gun it. Seems like that is what worked with the Sheriff boat.
Everyone else, thanks for all the advice. Obviously I'm brand new and intend on making every mistake possible. So thanks.
As to the mast, until now I didn't know why everyone made such a big deal about sealin the rivets and such on the mast. I thought it was to prevent corrosion, but now I know it is to prevent water filling it up...and yes, when the boat righted, water was spraying out the bottom of the mast, like a firehose. I also was wondering what the bulbuous thing is at the top of the mast on a Hobie 18 that is stored in my same boat yard...now I suspect it is a float. I want one. Good advice on standing on the bow to rotate the boat around.
And good advice about intentionally flipping her with a support crew nearby. Would love to try these other techniques and see if the outcome is different.
I'll have to do some reading about a righting pole setup...saw a post with pics on this site somewhere. Until I get around to that, what does everyone use for a water bag? Is this like a trash bag you unfold, fillup and hang on your back? Never seen one used in pics of people righting a boat so have no earthly idea what is looks like. Also, do most people stand on the dagger boards for extra leverage?
In regards to how my dagger boards are secured, they have knots at the top, but when the boat was upside down one of them just slid out away from me. I wonder if I need a safety line attached to the top handles?
In regards to water in the hull, the starboard hull always takes on water and it seems to be getting worse. My friend took the boat out this last weekend...was on the water about 6hrs and said half the hull was full and the stern was nearly under water. While the sources are many, when the boat was turned over I think I saw the major culprit. I'll confirm this weekend when I use soapy water.
At the very least, the spot was VERY soft and I'd like some advice on a quick repair. I've read a bunch (and watched videos) about drilling holes and injecting resin, but to the best of my knowledge and based on what I can see through the port holes, the '82 Nacra 5.8 doesn't have a foam core. I can see the light coming thru the fiberglass hull where the gelcoat has been rubbed off. So I assume the injection methoed wouldn't work for me here? So what do I do, grind away the gelcoat into the glass...lay new glass and smooth out? Doesn't look necessarily hard either, but sure would love a direction to head on this.
Thanks All. I got the bug and want to learn, learn, learn.
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Jeremy Soder
Nacra 5.8
Allen, TX
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Posted: Jul 05, 2012 - 10:31 PM
If you don't have a foam core, 'soft' doesn't apply. The few boats I've had that are solid glass, I can make shadow puppets below the hull and see them through the inspection ports. That's normal. (and fixable, but not a huge concern)
My guess is if it takes that much water when upright, you definitely have an issue in the dagger well. You should fix this ASAP if it is in the range of 5+ gallons per day of sailing without capsizing. 1 gallon and I'd be on the fence, but most others would tell you to fix asap.
You need 'sideloaders' for your daggers. I've posted on home made ones if you don't have any.
For the love of Poseidon, or whatever you worship while you're on the water, don't tie a slip knot around a hull and give the other end of the line to a motor boat. There are countless other horrible ideas, but seriously, use your head while you're out there. I've been a victim of relief too many times.
The mast should certainly be sealed, but I'm not too big on making it perfect, and I don't buy into 'bobs' for the masthead. Just learn what's going on when it goes over, learn how to right it from turtle on the off-chance it happens, and learn how to right it quickly. Learn what's necessary, and what takes away from it. Life jackets -- a must, a bob on the mast -- handy if you're exceptionally lazy or green when you go over.
Water bag. A couple of us that may or may not be extremely familiar with capsizing have helped to perfect this thing. I've got no financial ties to this one -- I don't even own it. I bought the original then had my sail repair guy (who I keep in jewels) add some stuff to it. I think you can take this current version and just add a 2:1 or 3:1 to it with a cheap snap shackle and be done. I've used mine enough to call myself an expert.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Jul 06, 2012 - 12:10 AM
To clarify a bit:
Any leaks at all should be fixed in the off-season. I'm a fan of sailing first and worrying later, though, so if the leak isn't that bad I'd sail.
Reading your post again, though, if your boat is truly half full of water in one of the hulls you should certainly fix it before sailing any more, as it's not even the same boat, even if it does hold together, with that much extra weight.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Jul 06, 2012 - 07:34 AM
So what is the correct method for getting assistance from a power boat? Thankfully, I haven't needed it yet, but you never know...maybe some day.
My gut feeling is tie a line to a trap wire and have them slooooowly pull.
Simply lifting the mast tip a foot or so above the water works well, but I don't like the idea of a powerboat that close to my mast. Actually, I'm really nervous about ANY powerboat assistance, but I'm not too proud to ask if I really need it. -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2012 - 07:45 AM
Good questions Flaco...what is the correct way? After I learn all these tricks though I pray I never need to find out. Ha.
Rob, thanks for the link to the water bag. How do you use it? Obviously ya fill it with water, but what then?
I agree witht fixing the boat now. I do think it is taking on too much water...fine for an hour here and there, but there is no way I would leave the boat in the water for 1/2 day right now. I'll look hard at the dagger wells, but I really think it is coming from the particular soft spot I mentioned as there was cracking right in the center of it and of the size that would make sense based on volume of water. Also, did look in the dagger wells...at least cursory, and nothing stood out as bad/cracked/wrong/etc..
So let's say I confirm this as the source of the leak, since it sounds like the injection method may be out for me (no foam core), what would you advise. Have you done this type of repair before? If so, what do you recommend?
I do have side loaders on the dagger boards...been playing around with tension and material though...I'll look at your design and see what I can improve on to prevent in future. Thanks.
Thanks.
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Jeremy Soder
Nacra 5.8
Allen, TX
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Posted: Jul 06, 2012 - 12:33 PM
In the past when I flipped my Prindle 18 sailing solo, I ask the power boat driver to grab the tip of the mast and bring it around to point into the wind, while that is happening, I clamber onto the hull and get my righting line over the top hull, once the mast is pointing into the wind, ask them to lift the mast, at the same time you lean out as far as you can, boat came up pretty easy, both main and jib were of course, un-cleated. You have to remember the cohesive properties of water, when the sail gets wet you have to break that cohesion, that is why if you have crew, you get them to swim to the mast head, point it into the wind and lift it, you lay out almost vertical using the righting line and if there is enough wind it gets under the sail and breaks that cohesion, crew can then swim around and grab onto righting line to help right cat.
If you are sailing solo and there is no one around when you flip your cat, the righting bag comes into play, there are 2 types of righting bag:-
small bag
big bag
Both bags (can) attach to your righting line, so some preparation is required as to where bag will attach, flip boat over on its side, (you decide where to do this, grassy lawn or shallow water) take your righting line and throw over upper hull so you can see where to tie a loop in your righting line. If you have a fixed length of line attached to your righting bag, feed the line through the loop, fill the bag with water and pull bag up to required height so that when you lean out bag is over your shoulder. When you have figured out the length required on your righting bag line, tie a stopper knot in righting bag line so that it stops at the loop, then all you have to do is hold onto righting bag line while leaning out.
The 4:1 righting up-haul line makes things a little easier when it is attached to your righting bag, attach righting bag to righting line using a snap shackle through the loop you tied, fill bag with water, hoist bag out of water, cleat line off, duck under line so that as you lean out line is over your shoulder.
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TurboHobo
H14T
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G-Cat 5.0
P16
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