Yesterday we flipped my P18-2 in shallow water to see how difficult it would be to righten it.
Well, "difficult" would be an understatement.
There was no wind, not even a slight breeze. I understand that the main should not have been cleated, but all the same, there was no frigging way to righten it. A strong 200 lbs guy and a 100 lbs girl where extorting their efforts, clinging to the righting line, while I was lifting the mast top and trying to walk it up. The thing would not budge, and the mast bend dangerously.
It's beyond me how a single guy would be able to righten a boat like this.
That said, even though I had previously sealed the mast, it filled with water. Also, there is an inside sleeve above the mast hound weighing perhaps 7lbs.
When we flipped the boat, it _immediately_ started to turtle; this was not caused by the entering water, if so it would have taken at least 5 or more seconds as there are really very tiny holes. Could it be that the sleeve makes all the difference? I guess the righting pole will have to be 7 yards long...
I'm also thinking of installing a Hobie floater, or is there anything else available that looks better? Some sort of floatation panels perhaps?
Rookie righting
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Posted: Jun 29, 2009 - 10:28 PM
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Posted: Jun 29, 2009 - 11:04 PM
catdan, something seriously wrong there, if the mast is properly sealed, it should float, at least for about 10-20 min. I took my mast off my H16 last week-end and it floated for a good while, not too sure about the Prindles but if they're as good as some mention, they too should float. Maybe some of the other Prindle owners can advise on that sleeve floating around inside the mast, but it sounds like you need to strip the mast down, remove mast base and mast head and check out whats inside, maybe remove anything unneccessary, re-rivit ends back on and seal everything really good. Then take mast to the lake and give it the ole "float test".
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 03:50 AM
a mast float sounds like a good idea until you work out what is going on
you could try filling the mast with water and see where it leaks out
would need to be off the boat for this, on my nacra i would either remove the base casting to do this or the through bolt that holds the mast rotator arm -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 08:56 AM
If you take the mast into about 3 feet of water and completely submerge it, you will see where the leaks are. Only submerge the mast (not attached to the boat) and look for bubbles. You should be able to submerge the mast by having one guy stand on each end. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 11:36 AM
In shallow water how do you know it tried to turtle right away? How shallow was the water? Part of the mast will always be underwater, even if it is totally water tight. Not sure how much of the mast, that would vary by boat type, but part of top of the mast will be under water. Sounds like you have some things to figure out, but wanted to make sure you knew the mast would be partly underwater.
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 11:47 AM
2 people should be able to right a cat BUT ... with the main /and/or the jib open (and cleated) you are now trying to right a boat, and pull 1000's of lbs of water up.
Please try again and make sure you are uncleated.. makes a world of difference. Even if you had a couple holes in your mast... it shouldn't fill for a few minutes (i think) and you should have time to right the cat.
also wind helps.. it gets under the tramp and helps lift.. and very few boats flip in zero wind... so wait for a 5-8 mph wind and try again... -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 07:07 PM
Like Andrew says
lets do the math,
P18-2 has 233 sq ft of sail
1 sq ft of water 1 ft deep (1 cubic ft water) weighs 7481 pounds
233 sq ft of sail multiplied by 7481 lbs = enormous weight
that is why it is recommended to uncleat the main and the jib b4 trying to right the cat
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 08:48 PM
I would not under estimate water in the mast. I do not have the physics to back up what I'm saying, but putting the scenario in perspective should bring the situation into better light.
If we have a mast that's 26-28 ft long and it has just 1/2 gal of water (which is about 4 lbs) in it. The water is all located at the top of the mast. A catamaran tipped on it's side and you on the other is a lever. The fulcrum is the pontoon in the water. Your weight is only 5 ft (shoulder height from the pull of the righting line) from the fulcrum. You can see the huge disadvantage you have. I had one incident last season with righting, since I've made sure the mast is sealed the problem seems to be behind me. Also, a turtled cat with it's mast down in the water 28 ft is under heavy water pressure. A small hole at the top of the mast would allow water to spray in much faster than what you may think. I carry a righting bag as a backup and have no problems now. Testing in shallow water is key, it refines your technique and restores confidence in yourself to get your cat righted. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 08:49 PM
Wow.. i was pretty close in my estimate.
That is the static water weight... there would also be added resistance...
Another great reason to uncleat *and furl if you can) ... when you right... your cat, it is less prone to fill the sails with wind and take off at about 20knots....
how fast can you swim? So far i have taxied 2 people to catch their cats this past year...
edited by: andrewscott, Jul 01, 2009 - 11:34 AM -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 09:53 PM
i totally agree jim... all points.
just some interesting data:
I have a righting bag and have been able to solo right my h18 and my current mystere 5.5. (i am 180-200, both cats are 420+gear), solo with the bag.
It took my friend and me, and my bag... 20 minutes.. and with the help of another sailor right his mystere5.5. He had his main cleated. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2009 - 11:01 PM
If you hold onto the high hull after you get knocked down, this will force the mast to sink much quicker, it is a good idea to get down off the high hull as quick as you can
Bobs are great for keeping the mast afloat but are a serious hinderance to righting as they add weight to the very tip of the mast which will raise the amount of weight needed to right not to mention just stepping the mast will be much harder
Another trick (and it is fun too) put your little girl on your shoulders as the added height will give her weight more leverage. you should be leaned out almost to the water to max out you effective weight
having the bows into the wind (and having at least some wind) is vital as sails even just laying on the surface will want to stick to the water. A little air flow will break this. Righting happens slowly at first so it is not a matter of a sudden jerk but a gradual pull as the boat starts to come up, it will speed up so be careful you do not pull it all the way over the other way.
My old H18SX with a mamabob floated great BUT was a bear to right so I can honestly say I wish I never met bob. -
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Posted: Jul 01, 2009 - 10:36 AM
Turbohobo- just a quick clarification.
One cubic foot contains 7.48 gallons of water. One gallon of water weighs 8.34 pounds, so one cubic foot of water weighs 62.38 lbs.
So I assume your 7481 is really 7.481.
Second, you dont multiply 233 sq ft of sail by the 7.481, as the weight of water is in cubed feet, or cubed ounces. Your formula is if all 233 sq feet of the sail were under 1 ft of water.
Last time I dumped my cat (an H16) only the top of the mast was about 1 foot deep into the water, and graduated out of the water from there, to about 1/2 of the sail. If the graduation out of the water was an even slope, the volume of water on the sail is like this;
Length_of_base * Width_of_base * Height * 1/3 (thats acutually the volume of a pyramid)
That doesnt change the fact that its really heavy. Just wanted to clarify.
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Posted: Jul 01, 2009 - 11:34 AM
the first time i ever capsized i had let a gal steer my h16 (in tampa bay). She had just taken sailing classes.
It became gusty so i asked her to uncleat the main and we would switch back possitions. She didn't know what i meant and we got hit by a gust and capsized.
I told her to swim under the boat and uncleat the main and jib... she said she did it...
i could not right the boat for 30 minutes and a power boater came to help. we were able to right the boat (after it was dragged about 1/4 mile).
I went to untie the righting line from the powerboat but the CLEATED sails filled with air and i powered up... and then hit the powerboat... little damage.. but in the end.. the girl was about 1/2 mile away from me... treading water.. and i learned a lot. -
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Posted: Jul 01, 2009 - 12:25 PM
OOOHHHHH ~~~ Hard lesson.....
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Posted: Jul 03, 2009 - 07:21 AM
I'm the one who put the 7lbs sleeve in there. It is definitely in the right place, not floating, nor is there anything else in there, but it sure makes the mast heavier.
I'll give it another try, but the mast was going down like a stone. It is admittedly not sealed properly, but even cup-sized holes would not have let the water in fast enough to go down so quickly and immediately.
edited by: catdan, Jul 03, 2009 - 06:22 AM -
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Posted: Jul 03, 2009 - 09:26 AM
What one should consider is that when a boat is turtled the top of the mast is almost 1 more atmospheric pressure under the water. Even the smallest hole will take in water very quickly because of the extreme pressure. All scuba divers will understand what I mean. A Prindle mast was the easiest mast for me to seal, just make sure when resealing that you remove all the old silicone, wipe with acetone and reseal EVERY through mast fitting and rivet.. I always drilled a hole in the bottom of the mast about 3/8 of an inch up from the bottom and then put a screw back in it and sealed with silicone. That way if I tipped over a few times I could always remove the screw and check for any water, then replace the screw and reseal. If your mast only takes in a little water when you tip (not turtle) it may not make a difference until that 3rd or 4th time when the water has accumulated enough to make the boat almost impossible to right. -
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Posted: Jul 03, 2009 - 10:24 AM
What's the pro and contra to foaming the entire mast? Anyone who tried this? -
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Posted: Jul 03, 2009 - 07:07 PM
for the 1st 2 years i had my nacra i sailed with a beachball at the top of the mast and everything above the mast rotator sealed
last winter i removed the mast cap and sealed in 1 foot length of microcell foam so i could do without the beachball
1 foot is pretty light but still the leverage multiplier at 28 feet is high...
doing the whole mast would mean a huge weight penalty but you wouldn't have to worry about checking the sealing on the mast hound rivets and cap etc.
most of us just check they are well sealed up at the start of the season
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Posted: Jul 03, 2009 - 10:05 PM
I would not foam the entire mast catdan. This can only add more weight. More importantly, When that foam gets wet and retains water your screwed, it's new mast time. Hullflyer's advise to drill a small hole near the bottom of mast is a really good idea. Drain any water that's in it and seal the hole with a metal screw and silicone. After you drill the hole, put some air pressure to it with a air compressor. Pour soapy water all over the mast and look for bubbles. This allows you to check for leaks at home.
Good luck
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Posted: Jul 03, 2009 - 11:14 PM
sorry, let's redo the math
P18-2 has 233 sq ft of sail
1 sq ft of water 1 ft deep (1 cubic ft water) weighs 7.481 pounds
233 sq ft of sail multiplied by 7.481 lbs = enormous weight
even if we use just 6" of water, 233 sq ft multiplied by 3.7405 = enormous weight.
even if just half the sail is in 6" of water, 116.5 sq ft multiplied by 3.7405 = enormous weight.
The point is, if you don't uncleat the main and the jib, you are trying to lift an enormous weight. Take a regular beach towel and submerge it into water, grab all 4 corners and try to lift beachtowel out, almost impossible, now let go 2 corners and beachtowel slips easily out of water. You get the picture.....?
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