Pitch polling, going turtle, flipping, et. al.
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Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 09:16 PM
I'd really love to get into beachcat sailing so I'm loving this forum. Maybe this is a dumb question, but how often should I expect to flip a boat (I'd sail inland lakes only)? From reading the forums it seems it is an all too common. After you right the boat, how long does it take to get going again? Thanks in advance. -
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 09:46 AM
Pitch polling is usually accomplished by sailing on a broad reach (slightly down wind) in 15+ mph winds. The leeward hull tends to be pushed into the water by the leverage of the sail. Once it starts it is hard to stop it from completing. If your mast is sealed the boat should not go turtle right away. Stand on the lowest hull to help the flotation of the mast. I have a G-Cat 5.7m, they are somewhat designed to not pitch pole,
If your boat starts to blow over, usually shoving the tiller away from you brings the bow into the wind and it robs the sails of power. Learning how to control the main sheet during power winds leads to fun hull flying.
Most cats can be righted pretty easily with two people on board. Once the boat is on it's side, walk to the bow and make it sink slightly, this will pivot the boat around into the wind. Then go to the other end and put your foot on the traveler car and stand on it. This should cause more lift from the wind to help lift the mast back out. If there are two to three foot waves, it may take some effort to get the mast up because just as it goes to lift... another wave comes and smacks it back down. Two people... pretty easy.. one person... tougher.
I have blown over 13 times alone. Three of those times required assistance from other boaters. Most of my blow downs resulted from getting distracted while doing deck organization of lines. I have installed a righting pole and it is still an effort to get back up.
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 09:48 AM
You SHOULD Get into cat sailing.
You don't EVER have to flip... only when you push your limits (or do something really wrong) will you flip or pitch pole.
I sailed my hobie16 for 5 years and only capsized 1 time(when i let a friend helm it).
After you right the boat, how long does it take to get going again? - MANY FACTORS HERE:
if everything goes perfect... you can sail it right away... usually you will be facing bows into the wind (in irons)... and need to turn your bows away from the wind... depending on what kind of boat you have (center/dagger boards help).. and skill set (getting out of irons can be an acquired skill).... it can take a few minutes.
But capsizing and righting a boat can be thrilling, fun, adventurous, wild and sometimes scary (depending on where and how it happens). I am often tired after all this and want a few minute break anyway
My advice... don't worry about it at all!
edited by: andrewscott, Dec 30, 2008 - 09:52 AM -
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 10:32 AM
Thanks for the advice. I've been crusing through the forums and kept coming across stories of dumping the boat. This was making me consider (GASP) - monohulls! -
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 11:13 AM
NO - they are no where as exciting to sail... i have capsized 5 times in my life and i have been sailing cats for 10 years.. i have sailed over 200 times in the past 3 years -
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 11:14 AM
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 12:39 PM
I guess I can help out here with inland lake experience, monohull and cat experience
First, I also live on an inland lake with sometimes shifty winds.
Capsizing and pitch-poling can be prevented very easily if you know your and the boat's limits. As Andrew Scott said, if you push the boat bad things may happen. I have capsized 7 times and pitch-poled twice in 8 years of sailing beach cats, and that was in weather that was questionable for sailing
As far as the monohull thing goes, they can and will capsize too, but there is NO experience like sailing a beam reach flying a hull and blasting past everyone else. Cat sailing is excitement and pure thrills.
Other nice thing with beach cats is they are a smaller hole in the water (cheaper) if you want it to be.
The hard part isn't deciding to buy a catamaran (they are great) but what cat to buy -
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Posted: Dec 31, 2008 - 07:07 PM
Don't do it! You can get a monohull on its side the same as a catamaran.
First year sailing a cat I was on the water a few times a week all day and flipped 3 times. I did a lot of "dumb" things to warrant it. The flip is slow and relativly gentle.
I have sailed quite a few monohulls from lasers up to 26 ft bristols, but after buying a H16 I wouldn't even consider going back to the darkside. hahaha.
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 11:40 AM
Let me add my dimes worth. I sail mostly solo and have dumped my H16 3 times, each time there has been a motorhead around to help me upright the cat cause I cannot do it alone. So motorheads are good for something, one time though there was no one around, I had to wait for 45 min for the wind to blow me across the lake into shallow water where I could right the boat myself, it gave me 45 min to work on righting techniques, none of which worked. I realized I would have to come up with a righting system that I can carry onboard, either a righting pole or a bag. As you become a more experienced sailor you begin to push the envelope more, more chance of going over, so in order not to waste too much time, a righting system is neccessary. I have sailed lakes where people cruise around in day-sailers and I sometimes envy them their cold beers and sunbathing babes but when I blast past them trapped out on a hull 6 feet above the surface of the water with my wake screaming out behind me I realize that they are watching me, with envy
I suppose one could start out on a monohull and graduate up to multihull, it just depends on the individuals situation and state of mind. I had minimal sailing experience but wanted the thrill, so I did not let my lack of experience stand in the way. I've been a waterman all my life and am comfortable around water giving it the respect it deserves by not pushing my limits and by taking precautions, the safety factor is important when sailing solo. I recommend everything everyone else told you on this post, just go for it, git-r-done, no regrets mon.
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TurboHobo
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G-Cat 5.0
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Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 11:02 AM
I've been sailing cats for 25 years now. I can say I've flipped a cat maybe just 10 times and pitch-poled my old Hobie 16 twice. Every single flip, knock-down or pitch-pole have all been due to one thing and one thing alone - SKIPPER OR CREW ERROR! In my experience this is what causes a catamaran to get knocked over or flipped:
1. Improper crew positioning causing improper boat balancing which gets exasperated by a wind gust or waves.
2. Improper line management in which a sheet gets fouled and the crew loses the ability to control a sail.
3. Improper planing for the wind/wave conditions (i.e. waves are up and you're sailing a Hobie-16, use chicken lines because the bows will dive and the boat will stop. If the crew weight is aft enough, the boat will stay down.)
4. Sailing in the ocean surf trying to jump waves (pretty self-explanitory).
5. Mechanical failure (A shroud breaking on a beam reach in 20-kt of wind can be fun)
6. Getting run down by a powerboat.
I've been sailing my current Prindle 18.2 for 10 years now and have had to right her just once (see number 2 above - while soloing). See this post: http://www.thebeachcats.c…wtopic-topic-2016.html25-kt of wind in 7-ft seas and you would expect a knock-down or pitch-pole. Not necessarily. Even in the harshest of wind and conditions a beach cat can be controlled.
People often say to me, "I guess you don't like sailing on the edge too much then." Nope! I LOVE going fast! These boats go fastest when the windward hull is a mere 1-foot out of the water. The goal to going fast is to reduce drag and friction by getting the windward hull and dagger/centerboard out of the water, but keep the boat as flat as possible. The higher the heel angle, the more wind is spilled off the sails and the less efficient the main is at generating power. When a puff hits, extend out on on the wire as far as possible and put your head back. if you can keep the boat flat, you'll feel ACCELERATION not heel increase and knock-down potential.
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Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 01:46 PM
Don't get scared by the "chance" you may flip.
When sailing anything, sail within your abilities.
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Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 02:52 PM
Lubber,
I'd like to weigh in on this discussion. I've been a Hobie sailor since 1970, also a Hobie dealer for 8 years. Capsizing is part of the fun. If you don't push the boat hard enough to dump it from time to time you are not having enough fun.
As a dealer we always gave instructions on righting and I've gone out with many families just to dump the boat and show them how to right it. It takes away the fear of the word "Capsize" and makes it part of the sailing fun. The kids always thought it was great fun. Girlfriends and wives leaned it is to be expected as part of the learning curve and not a disaster.
Gator -
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Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 03:05 PM
Yes,I like the way of Capsizing ,we give the right "push"!!!
Smile ,javascript:void(0);
Adriaan -
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Posted: Jan 07, 2009 - 01:24 PM
All, thanks for your input. I'm not so much worried/scared about capsizing but more concerned about the convenience factor. If I dump my wife in the drink every time we go out I wouldn't have a cat for long (or wife).
Right not it is not a question of if I get a cat, but when. -
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Posted: Jan 10, 2009 - 07:08 PM
If it has not already been said... fair weather never made a good sailor. Accepting the fact that blowing over happens is alien to boaters... it is not supposed to be part of the deal. It is avoided at all costs for most boats.
But it is not the end of the world, it can be dealt with, and should be part of the educational aspect. Sail in some shallow water and blow over intentionally... it goes a long way of taking the voodoo out of it.
People who are phobic about getting their feet nibbled on by sea life might be anxious about it. Always wear good foot protection. All fun stops when an oyster shell cuts the foot.
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Posted: Jan 16, 2009 - 04:04 PM
I used to toss my 14T over all the time. She was easy to right. I miss that carefree life!
I flipped my N5.8NA first season with wife and kid in howling westerlies (Bangers - In local parliance). Not fun and quite scary but we had not yet learned the ways and wiles of western Lake MI. I was cleated in when we went over and the wind hit us like a hammer. Since then we have survived a gale and storm that destroyed the jib without flipping. Righting a big 19' cat is no picnic so I've learned on really windy days to take on heavier crew, travel out, de-tune and be realistic about the days I choose to sail. All said, we now enjoy westerlies but the wife is still skittish. We've not flipped since that first time. -
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Posted: Jan 24, 2009 - 11:49 PM
Just bought a used Prindle 16 and need to tweak it before it hits the water. My first cat, first sailboat. Thanks for this discussion on flipping, etc. It'll take the anxiety out of it when it happens, and I'm sure it will. I joined up because of this discussion. Very cool... Mahalo! -
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Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 01:39 PM
Make sure you understand how to right her. If possible flip her over on a calm day and practice, practice. Make certain she's equipped with righting lines. Make sure you always are wearing a good floatation vest and you'll be fine. -
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Posted: Feb 02, 2009 - 12:59 PM
Nothing quite like the feeling of being 16, with your 15 year old brother, on a Prindle 18, double trapped Hovering on the edge of flying and capsizing, right next to the jetties in Charleston harbor, Knowing that our whole 225 lbs wouldn't be able to right the thing. You learn boat control damn quick and it was loads of fun. Haven't looked back since. -
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Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 02:25 PM
I tend to push a little hard and have been known to capsize half a dozen times in a single day. I have also flipped bow over stern on a rogue wave while coming off the beach on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan and have pitchpoled once.
The bow over stern was a little scary and broke a couple of battens, but no major damage. Pitchpoling is not very fun. You go from king of the world out on the wire to 20 feet in front of the bow in a very short period of time. This is closely followed by impact with the water. Luckily my harness had released prior to water impact.
Capsizing is no big deal. The only real effect that waves have while righting is that they make it more difficult to balance on the lower hull.
The trick of righting is to use the wind to right the boat. In a monohull, the boat is righted while head to wind. A cat is most easily righted while the bow is about 45 degrees off the wind. The wind should be blowing between the mast and the bow with both the top of the mast and the bow approximately 45 degrees off the wind.
Once you put weight on the righting line, the combined force of that weight and the wind on the tramp pulls the mast out of the water. The wind gets under the mast, the boat comes up and turns head to wind as it rights.
I use this technique to solo right an 18 foot, 340 lb Nacra 5.5 and am only 180 pounds.
