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Which skill to learn first?  Bottom

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  • Hey all,
    In our journey to become skillful cat sailors, it seems we need to learn to fly a hull and also to trapeze. Which skill should we work on first? Or would you do them both as conditions dictate?

    Before those two, we intend to learn to capsize and right the boat.

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
    Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
    Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
    --
  • I mean, this is all a matter of taste, but in terms of what I see as practicality...

    One of the most important pieces of your rig is the hiking straps. Seriously. I can't tell you how many times I've encountered obvious newbs trying to get their new/old 16 going, you know, help them sort out bits of rigging, etc., and notice that the hiking strap stitching is rotted *and* that the trapeze isn't set up. So you patiently try to explain the importance of these things in high-aspect ratio cats, and to show them you mean business you reach over and tug on the hiking strap and it comes away in your hand, and they treat you like some dumb old asshole and go ahead and put in anyway. Then, later, while you're making good time in decent wind, you see them sitting pretty much still because they haven't worked out the connection between balance and speed, and that balance is a function of how securely you're attached to the boat. So you figure screw 'em, either they'll learn or they won't.

    Anyway, I say hike first and learn how much control you have over it *without* being on the wire, which adds balance issues and that whole getting-in-and-out business. And besides, flying a hull isn't so much something you learn to do as it is something you learn about having done to you. For the most part, you're not flying it, you're just trying to keep it from flying too much. Get a feel for the boat first, then graduate to the higher winds that will *require* the wire.



    Edited by jonathan162 on Aug 11, 2021 - 09:38 PM.

    --
    Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
    *
    1983 SuperCat 19
    TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
    Mystere 17
    H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and presumed destroyed by evil people. Very unpleasant story.
    Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
    --
  • Flying a hull is fun, & looks cool, but it’s slow. You want the hull to just be touching the water. As it comes higher,your mast leans, & loses power. We used to drive our Nacras hull up, competing to see who could do it furthest. It got pretty slow at times.
    The most important thing to learn, is sail trim. Often you will be in winds to light for the wire, or downwind. The sailor who learns to set sails, in all conditions will be the winner. Tie a foot long streamer, or small flag to your leach,halfway up, it will be surprising how often you are over sheeted. Spend your time learning how to generate boat speed, on all points of sail.
    Boat balance is also important, & more so on skinny hills such as the H16.
    Trapping out is the easy part of sailing.



    Edited by Edchris177 on Aug 11, 2021 - 10:14 PM.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • Totally right. One of the things you're going to get while just messing around is how high you can jack that windward hull up, just for fun (okay, and to give the tourists a thrill), and that while you're up there, right on the hairy edge of the boat falling over, your boat speed is just about zero.



    Edited by jonathan162 on Aug 12, 2021 - 11:53 AM.

    --
    Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
    *
    1983 SuperCat 19
    TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
    Mystere 17
    H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and presumed destroyed by evil people. Very unpleasant story.
    Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
    --
  • QuoteThe most important thing to learn, is sail trim.

    +1
    then add weigh placement to the most important and impactful things to learn imho

    then how to read the wind on water (was an epiphany for me)

    do a few races. you learn a lot watching others who actually know how to sail and win races (as they get smaller and smaller)



    Edited by MN3 on Aug 12, 2021 - 08:22 AM.
  • tacking.... learn to tack the boat efficiently/effectively. it can be more difficult than it looks.

    --
    1978 H18
    1983 H18 (some of it)
    --
  • raisehulltacking.... learn to tack the boat efficiently/effectively. it can be more difficult than it looks.


    This is particularly important for your specific make and model. The Hobie 16 is notorious for being hard to tack. One trick is to hold off uncleating the jib during the tack and actually "backwinding" it until you are 100% certain you are completely through the wind. The backwinded jib will help pull the front of the boat through the wind.

    This technique is common on all but the fastest and most maneuverable catamarans.
  • How to safely "go over" and right the cat. Having the confidence to quickly and safely right your cat will allow you to experiment and learn faster.
  • bradinjax
    raisehulltacking.... learn to tack the boat efficiently/effectively. it can be more difficult than it looks.


    This is particularly important for your specific make and model. The Hobie 16 is notorious for being hard to tack. One trick is to hold off uncleating the jib during the tack and actually "backwinding" it until you are 100% certain you are completely through the wind. The backwinded jib will help pull the front of the boat through the wind.

    This technique is common on all but the fastest and most maneuverable catamarans.


    That was the main reason I was never a big fan of the 16. Learning to roll-tack will help a lot too.

    --
    Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
    *
    1983 SuperCat 19
    TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
    Mystere 17
    H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and presumed destroyed by evil people. Very unpleasant story.
    Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
    --
  • geepaksHow to safely "go over" and right the cat. Having the confidence to quickly and safely right your cat will allow you to experiment and learn faster.

    Yep! Top of my list.

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
    Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
    Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
    --
  • Without considering how to sail fastest, these are my recommendations...

    A great way to learn to fly a hull and control the boat in general is to practice keeping the windward hull completely out of the water, but only a foot or so (nowhere near a capsize). You do this by sheeting in/out, heading up/down, and a combination of the two. The best control method for a given condition will depend on how bad the shifts, gusts, waves, etc. are.

    Learn the trapping procedure described in the Hobie catalog right from the start. (Long ago, before I knew better, I developed an unorthodox method that kind of sucks but is the only one I'm comfortable with.)

    At first, the crew should practice trapping out (without all the skippering duties) while skipper is operating from the tramp (without all the trapping issues). Then switch places and repeat. Next, with more experience and/or courage beers, have the skipper (on the tramp) hand the mainsheet and stick over to the crew (already on the wire) and move forward. Then switch places and repeat. Later, with even more experience and/or courage beers, the skipper can attempt to trap out while still skippering, and the crew can laugh like hell. Then switch places and repeat.

    Like most things, flying a hull, trapping out, and skippering from the wire are not that hard (just require practice); doing them well is a whole 'nother story.

    --
    Jerome Vaughan
    Hobie 16
    Clinton, Mississippi
    --
  • Thanks Jerome. Is that Hobie catalog still around? Also I like the idea of the crew trapping out and not the skipper, until we have the skills.

    Joyrider TV makes it look pretty easy!

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
    Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
    Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
    --
  • I think it's a tie between righting the boat and depowering the boat quickly to prevent capsize in the first place. Sail close hauled with the traveler out six inches with both sails sheeted down tight. Notice you only have to head up a few degrees and the boat will depower greatly but will still be moving forward. This should be reflex. What else should be reflex is a spilt second reaction to letting the mainsheet out. Your sheeting angle is critical for easy control. Sometimes the angle of the cam-cleat below your mainsheet block cannot be adjusted perfectly without minor changes to the height of the block. You may want to use a longer d shackle or two shackles. With a good quality cam cleat you should be able to easily cleat and un-cleat from almost anywhere on the boat. You shouldn't have to un-cleat by flicking the line real hard. This is sometimes a problem with old stainless cam cleats. Until you get used to your boat you'll probably feel safer leaving it un-cleated in heavier airs and relying on the ratchet. But even with an 8 to 1 this can get tiring over time. Because I have arthritis in both hands I have learned to trust my equipment and I never sail with the main un-cleated anymore.

    --
    Bill Townsend
    G-Cat 5.7
    Sarasota
    --
  • waiex191Is that Hobie catalog still around?


    See P. 7: https://media.hobie.com/d…bie_Sail_August_2021.pdf
    Hobie support article: https://www.hobie.com/art…getting-trapeze-wire,91/

    --
    Jerome Vaughan
    Hobie 16
    Clinton, Mississippi
    --
  • bradinjaxOne trick is to hold off uncleating the jib during the tack and actually "backwinding" it until you are 100% certain you are completely through the wind. The backwinded jib will help pull the front of the boat through the wind.


    In my opinion, there is absolutely no need to backwind the jib in order to tack a Hobie 16. It's a crutch...I would recommend that a novice sailor avoid it entirely and instead work on proper technique right from the start. Granted, it's not the easiest thing to do, but, with proper steering, weight placement, and timely easing/hardening of the sheets, the boat can be sailed right through the tack without backwinding which slows/stops it.

    waiex191: I took your original post as asking which of the two one should work on first...hull flying or trapezing....so I limited my earlier comments to those two. For all things boat handling on a simpler rig like the H16, I'd recommend you get your hands on a copy of Catamaran Racing for the 90's (out of print) by Rick White (RIP, Rick). It is somewhat dated, but not a lot has changed on the smaller beachcats. It does cover racing (and a lot of the rules stuff has changed), but much of it is dedicated to boat tuning and handling.....upwind, downwind, speeding up, slowing down, stopping, backing up, jibing, and tacking...including a sermon against backwinding the jib. The Joyrider TV vids are truly inspirational, and the internet forums can be helpful, but the info in that book is from a world class national champion sailor and is priceless.



    Edited by rattlenhum on Aug 16, 2021 - 08:22 AM.

    --
    Jerome Vaughan
    Hobie 16
    Clinton, Mississippi
    --
  • rattlenhumFor all things boat handling on a simpler rig like the H16, I'd recommend you get your hands on a copy of Catamaran Racing for the 90's (out of print) by Rick White (RIP, Rick).

    Thanks for the recommendation and all the advice. eBay to the rescue - I'll have my copy next week.

    Also thanks all for the discussion and advice. I am reading and considering it all.

    --
    Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
    Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
    Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
    Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
    --
  • QuoteCatamaran Racing for the 90's


    Best price i can find is Amazon from the US for $100. :o

    --
    1335 XTSea Nacra 5.8 NA
    Cleveland Yacht Club
    Brisbane, AU
    --
  • johnoau
    QuoteCatamaran Racing for the 90's


    Best price i can find is Amazon from the US for $100. :o

    That is pretty steep. I have,(I don’t think I’ve lent it out), an almost new copy of that book. Bought it years ago, learned a lot.
    I’d part with it for a lot less than $100...I’m an old dog, not going to get any better, faster, or change my ways now.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • I'm seeing $27.46 for a used copy in acceptable condition on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1880871009/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=used

    $30 from Murry's Marine but probably in new condition if not new. https://www.murrays.com/product/book-catamaran-racing-for-the-90s/



    Edited by tominpa on Aug 19, 2021 - 11:28 PM.

    --
    Tom
    NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
    Pennsylvania
    --
  • Quotehttps://www.murrays.com/product/book-catamaran-racing-for-the-90s/


    Should clarify, $100AUD includes shipping to Aus



    Edited by johnoau on Aug 20, 2021 - 04:51 PM.

    --
    1335 XTSea Nacra 5.8 NA
    Cleveland Yacht Club
    Brisbane, AU
    --

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