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Nacra tiller crossbar ends  Bottom

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  • I took my maiden voyage this past Sunday on my 5.0 and ended up twice nearly dumping the boat when the tiller crossbar "locked" itself by rotating. I have ready several post about the options for upgrading. I can get hobie ends, buy the Murrays welded joint for $48, or buy Nacra's urethane rubber tendons for $52. I kinda liked the autohelm nature of the locking joints. I'd bet the urethane joints would do the same. What do I go with? Thanks!

    --
    Robert
    83' NACRA 5.0
    81' NACRA 5.2
    Previously owned H18, Trac 14, G-Cat 5.0, H14T
    BYC, Mobile, AL
    --
  • can you post links to the choices?
  • Option 1 https://westcoastsailing.…bie-rudder-adjuster-kit/
    https://www.ebay.com/i/132036647734?chn=ps
    Option 2 Nacra upgradehttps://www.murrays.com/product/56-5516/
    Option 3 Urethane Rubber https://www.murrays.com/product/56-4536/

    --
    Robert
    83' NACRA 5.0
    81' NACRA 5.2
    Previously owned H18, Trac 14, G-Cat 5.0, H14T
    BYC, Mobile, AL
    --
  • The urethane doesn't really auto lock and needs replacement every 2-3 years as it breaks down. They do work pretty well other than those limits.

    The Murrays solution looks like it would develop slop over time.

    Adjust-ability is nice but I'm not sure the hobie setup fits your boat.

    What I have done on my latest setup is copy the Goodall system with McMaster-Carr eyes and machined delrin end fittings for the crossbar.
  • thanks for the links
    i wasn't sure what you meant "rotated"
  • http://owners.aquarius-sa…ller+crossbar+connection

    There's a pic about half way down that shows a method. With only one yolk there in no slop in the connection.
    Yeah, I know it means putting SuperCat parts on your Nacra but hey you were thinking about Hobie parts.
    This kit is stock from Aquarius.

    http://www.aquarius-sail.com/



    Edited by gahamby on Feb 22, 2019 - 12:59 PM.

    --
    1983 SuperCat 15
    #315
    Virginia
    --
  • Yeah no. Those yolks (these bits here: https://www.murrays.com/product/01-0062/) inherently have slop. I machine custom bushing for those to ride on so you can tighten down all the way on the bolt and still allow the yolk to pivot.

    The Nacra urethane parts are 100% slop free but have limited adjust-ability. The other system that is pretty good is the eXploder setup which has machined delrin ends inserted into the end of the crossbar that ride on pintails on the tillers. One side of the crossbar gets slotted for adjustment.
  • rch701Option 1 https://westcoastsailing.…bie-rudder-adjuster-kit/
    https://www.ebay.com/i/132036647734?chn=ps
    Option 2 Nacra upgradehttps://www.murrays.com/product/56-5516/
    Option 3 Urethane Rubber https://www.murrays.com/product/56-4536/


    Option 1 may not work with your crossbar length and just complicates a very simple system.

    Option 3 is for boats with tiller tubes bent at 90 degrees that line up with the crossbar.

    Option 2 is what I did years ago on a 5.5 SL, it requires drilling new holes in your tiller tubes and may require adjusting the length of your crossbar

    A temp and cheap fix is to use 2 zip ties in a cross on each end to stop the spinning of the connection.
    What has happened is that the weld has broken where the bolt is welded to the U shaped piece.
    Another option is to get that re-welded.

    --
    Ron
    Nacra F18
    Reservoir Sailing Assn.
    Brandon, Mississippi
    --
  • There is a good thread somewhere on this forum about that problem. I’ll try to dig it up. In the meantime...
    You’re sailing a 5.0. Be honest, it’s a great heavy wind, old school boat. Do what we do on the 5.0 & 5.7
    Take a piece of SS wire, & wrap it around one side of the connection, so it can’t rotate.
    Time involved, around 5 minutes. Cost, almost zero. Lifespan...I couldn’t find my roll of SS aviation lockwire, so I temporarily used a piece of galvanized “farm wire”.
    That was about 5 years ago. I keep putting it on my to-do list each spring.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • only one my joints is welded and does the job for both. Just in case you want to go step by step..
    The crossbar adjuster, if you have one, has to be locked tight with the counter nut



    Edited by Andinista on Feb 23, 2019 - 05:22 AM.
  • rch701Option 1 https://westcoastsailing.…bie-rudder-adjuster-kit/
    https://www.ebay.com/i/132036647734?chn=ps
    Option 2 Nacra upgradehttps://www.murrays.com/product/56-5516/
    Option 3 Urethane Rubber https://www.murrays.com/product/56-4536/


    I run Option 2 with the addition of the adjustable end cap, Nacra 5508 which I no longer find on Murrays??? Does anyone know if the 5508 has been discontinued? 3-1/2 seasons on this setup with no issues.

    https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=130868&g2_serialNumber=4

    nacra55Option 2 is what I did years ago on a 5.5 SL, it requires drilling new holes in your tiller tubes and may require adjusting the length of your crossbar


    You do not have to re-drill your tiller tubes to use the Murrays Tie Bar Kit, 56-5516. Simply attach it through the hole where the two welded halves meet (see pic above).

    Relative to the various comments on "slop," there must be some in this system or it will bind at the extremes of movement. The ends (top to bottom) of the tiller tubes DO NOT swing in a plane thus the geometry of the assembly changes from the nominal (steering straight) position to the extreme (hard turn) position. The trick is to occasionally check the amount of "slop" and keep it to a minimum.

    --
    Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
    MacGregor 25 (formerly)
    Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
    NACRA 5.0 (currently)
    High Point, NC
    --
  • The Nacra Urethane system doesn't bind and has no slop (or very very little). The eXploder setup can bind at the extremes of tiller movement so you learn to avoid that.
  • Thanks all.
    Edchriss177, I'll take you suggestion for the next trip out.
    Nacra55, I'll weld them up if possible. To my recollection this can't be fixed with a welder.

    --
    Robert
    83' NACRA 5.0
    81' NACRA 5.2
    Previously owned H18, Trac 14, G-Cat 5.0, H14T
    BYC, Mobile, AL
    --
  • The slop is between the rudder and the casting. Adjust the casting bolt and shim where necessary. Very little slop should exist in the crossbar. If there is, the holes are excessively enlarged.

    Later model legacy Nacras had Ackermann rudder tiller arms (what leeboweffect touched on) from the factory. It is easy to put this bend in the arm of the older boats and it makes a noticeable improvement to tacking.

    --
    Philip
    --
  • Is there anyway to make a adjustment to the urethane NACRA system.
    Is there an aftermarket fix?
    Something like this? https://westcoastsailing.net/hobie-rudder-adjuster-kit/

    Or a way to make the whole urethane tendon adjustable?
  • upwindhackerSomething like this? https://westcoastsailing.net/hobie-rudder-adjuster-kit/


    If you want to use that part simply purchase tubing the same size OD/ID as the Hobie 16 tie bar and cut it to the correct length depending on your tiller arms etc.. IMHO the Ackermann idea is worthless.

    --
    Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
    MacGregor 25 (formerly)
    Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
    NACRA 5.0 (currently)
    High Point, NC
    --
  • QuoteIMHO the Ackermann idea is worthless.

    why is that?
  • MN3
    QuoteIMHO the Ackermann idea is worthless.

    why is that?


    We've already had part of this discussion.

    https://www.thebeachcats.…nc=viewtopic&topic=15766

    Here is a decent explanation of the theory relative to a typical vehicle with 4 wheels on land/pavement where slip is the primary concern and to be minimized/eliminated.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYMMdjbmQXc

    I spend 99.9 % of my time sailing moving in a straight line and when the wind is sufficient with one hull out of the water and/or with the windward rudder up. Why, even if you buy in to the theory, would you concentrate on optimizing 0.1% and sacrificing performance when both rudders are in the water during the other 99.9%.

    Next, does anyone always sail the same radius when turning? A fixed Ackermann angle is only "right" when you're sailing the radius it is set for, the rest of the time it's a hindrance. I set my rudders square at the centered (steering straight ahead) position, no toe in and minimal slop in the steering. Note that if you explore the steering geometry throughout it's envelop the amount of toe in/out changes as the tiller handle ends do not move in a plane.

    --
    Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
    MacGregor 25 (formerly)
    Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
    NACRA 5.0 (currently)
    High Point, NC
    --
  • leeboweffect
    MN3
    QuoteIMHO the Ackermann idea is worthless.

    why is that?


    I spend 99.9 % of my time sailing moving in a straight line and when the wind is sufficient with one hull out of the water and/or with the windward rudder up. Why, even if you buy in to the theory, would you concentrate on optimizing 0.1% and sacrificing performance when both rudders are in the water during the other 99.9%.


    Sounds like you are thinking of toe in. Ackerman steering does not add toe in or any extra drag to the rudder system when it's going straight....

    Beyond that and any other technical discussion, lets just go look at the top level A class boat, the DNA F1, and we notice that it has ackerman bend in their rudder arms... so I'll trust the class still throwing seeming unlimited money every year at trying to gain 0.0001% on the competition.

    leeboweffect
    Next, does anyone always sail the same radius when turning? A fixed Ackermann angle is only "right" when you're sailing the radius it is set for, the rest of the time it's a hindrance.


    This is all in reference to the most important "radius" and that's the one the boat takes when tacking. Since the boat mostly rotates around one hull due to the boat slowing down, there is a formula for each beam width to add in the ackerman angle so that when it matters most you have minimal rudder drag. I think you'll find that speeding up a tack and minimizing the time you are head to wind will gain you far more than the half a second you spent at speed making a minor steering correction with different turning radius' present.

    --
    '82 NACRA 18 Square "Bangarang"
    '85 Hobie 18 "Honey Badger Don't Care"
    '86 Hobie 18 "The Rippin & The Tearin"
    Jacksonville, FL
    --
  • So for the newer NACRA's with the Urethane tendons, there is no official NACRA solution to the lack of adjustment?. Once you set that screw in the urethane you are stuck at that amount of toe in or tow out. I can adjust the rake of the rudder very easily , but I can't adjust the rudder toe in . That seems like a bad design.

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