I am currently dealing with the City of Flagler Beach, Florida on their proposed ordinance which will effectively eliminate our ability to place catamarans on the beach. The pressure is coming from the local turtle patrol organization who are objecting to the catamarans being on the beach. I was just cited for a code violation because the existing ordinance which was drafted to protect the dunes included a sentence prohibiting the mooring of boats on the beach. They are considering a catamaran sitting on the beach as being moored. Some thoughts I have to fight this is to start a petition (local and perhaps posting it on this site to garnish as many signatures as I can opposing this new language). Has anyone had to deal with an issue similar to this that can offer any suggestion on how to get the City to back off on this prohibition. Any comments are appreciated.
Edited by evenkeel on Jun 12, 2017 - 11:15 AM.
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John Noble
Hobie Wave
Flagler Beach, Florida
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Flagler Beach Florida - Possible new rules on beach access.
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 09:14 AM
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 10:25 AM
Yup been there -
Here in Dunedin (fl) we have a long history of beach cats: Tampa had the biggest Hobie fleet in the US at one time (I am told) and a huge prindle fleet as well. The Dunedin causeway (St Joseph's sound) has always been a favorite launch site and historically had cats up and down the causeway in one spot. When I got into cat sailing (1999) many boats would be on the beach all weekend and even longer. Often there were 20 or so cats there (on every nice weekend).
The causeway officially "closes" at 11pm and It was pointed out to me (after 9 years of sailing here) that there are actually signs posted that read “no overnight parking" without a permit. This permit was for fishermen who wanted to fish during non-park hours.
About 7 years ago or so, we got wind that the township was going to change things - the local retires (who lived nearby) would complain all the time that to police "this is not a marina, why are all these boats here?" (there is actually a boat rental shop right there too) and the local police complained that many of the boat trailers had no tags, some boats had no trailer and the cops had no way of knowing if a boat was abandoned or what ... and I later found out the police were lacking the official authority to ticket or impound at this location (or something like that)
So we got about 10 dozen sailors and supporters to go to a town hall meeting and discuss this in public. Many people spoke. Pointed out the long (long) history, mentioned that there are catamaran on the town murals on city hall, and tried to show that we were good ambassadors of the community and protectors of the beach.
So the township said they would work with us to find a mutual solution. So I personally worked with the town attorney (who was incredibly nice and easy to work with), the police and the local park rangers. We came up with a very workable solution (although the need for it was very different than the one you stated - protecting endangered wild-life)
The solution was a permit system. If you want to park overnight you need a permit from the town. $100 for a year, $10 for a weekend. The permit allows 2 nights parking in any 7 day period. This was perfect for me, rig fri and break down sunday - PERFECT!
The big caveat is: this program is revocable. At ANY TIME for any REASON the program can be cancelled and there will be NO OVERNIGHT PARKING at all.
We were asked to "self-patrol" and clean up ANY trash we see, and to be good stewards of the beach.
So here we are about 6 years later. We don't have the boat traffic we had 8 years ago (the sport has defiantly lost lots of its participants around here) and it is not the huge issue it used to be. that being said there are only a few of us who actually pay for the permit and it is about impossible to get someone to pay for one - if they don't want to. The only recourse is public pressure (and that often comes from these online forums)
I should add: on day 1 the cops were on the beach - writing down the licence of every car that had a boat... making sure that we knew about the law and telling us they would tow any boat without a permit - well about a week later there was a prindle 16 on the beach for the whole week sans permit - the cops put a big sticker on it "remove this immediate or you will be towed and impounded": and it sat there for about a month - sticker an all. finally the owner of the rental shop broke the boat down and moved it to his shop so it wouldn't look so bad (the owner showed up a few days later - stating he had a death in the family and had to leave town and didn't have time to get his cat" (wth?)
so to date i don't think anyone has ever had a ticket, nor towed but the fact that they can revoke the program and kill my fun - it's not worth the risk and i just purchased my 6th permit.
Edited by MN3 on Jun 12, 2017 - 10:42 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 10:44 AM
Thanks for your information. I plan to meet with the City Manager and Planning director and see if a solution can be reached. I also intend to email the City Commissioners that will be voting on the ordinance and educate them in Flagler Beach at this time their are only 3 catamarans on the beach we do not have a big catamaran boating community. So our impact to the beach is minimal. I can take my Hobie Wave down on the beach on Friday evening to set-up and take off by Sunday and hopefully avoid the code enforcement officer who is off on weekends. But that doesn't solve the problem and I'm sure the Turtle patrol will let the City know I am back on the beach.
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John Noble
Hobie Wave
Flagler Beach, Florida
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 10:52 AM
Evenkeel, since this is your first post here I'll say, Welcome To TheBeachcats.com.
Getting right to the point though, be very careful!
I don't know who you are or how much history you have with this issue, but beach access is a huge fundamental problem and it's not going away.
I know from the Florida 300 and Tybee 500 races that the turtles trump everything on the East coast of Florida.
You can't win by fighting the turtles. If you have any chance it's by getting to know the local turtle inspectors and assuring them that beachcat sailors love sea turtles and just need education on how to protect them. Volunteer to help, join their organization.
When we do races up the coast, each stop requires a "Turtle Permit" from the local authority and there are strict rules about where and how the boats can be left on the beach.
Please don't try to start any petitions signed by non-locals on this issue, your (and all beachcat sailors) only hope is to work it out locally beach by beach.
Good luck and contact me direct through the contact form on this site if I can help.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 11:18 AM
Yes Damon thanks, I plan to go the diplomatic route and work with the local officials and turtle patrols. Endangered species are highly protected so I understand their concerns. My thoughts at this point are to possibly see if we can come to a compromise and taking the idea from MN3's post I would suggest to the City that they entertain a permit system where they can regulate the catamarans allowed on the beach by limiting the number of permits allowed and charge a fee and include specific requirements regarding protection of sea turtles.
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John Noble
Hobie Wave
Flagler Beach, Florida
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 11:18 AM
I am a turtle biologist and catamaran sailor. Although I do not work with sea turtles specifically, I do believe these animals face some truly grand challenges. That said, sea turtle nesting activity is often concentrated in certain areas. Nests are easy to locate because sea turtles leave large tracks to and from the ocean. My recommendation would be that there is no major conflict between sea turtles and catamarans in low nest density areas. At high density sites, you could have nesting females become trapped underneath beachcats. However, I suspect that would be very rare, unless there are many cats on the beach. This could be avoided by not leaving cats on the beach overnight during the nesting season. Once females finish nesting, and eggs are incubating, I don't thing beach cats present much danger to eggs. Also, it is important to understand, that nesting females are much more important that individual nests or eggs, because small sea turtles experience very large mortality. This is a central tenant of turtle biology. Protect the adults. I might add, that presence of cats on the beach or other foreign objects could actually protect nests from predators by providing a distraction. Some might argue that beachcats could interfere with nest temperatures or hatchling emergence, but this idea seems tenuous to me, particularly at low density nesting beaches. I think a major problem that cat sailors and turtles face is that the threats (think nets, climate change) to sea turtles are so great and hard to reduce that going after beachcats is low hanging fruit. Good luck winning due to that factor alone.
Edited by traphappy on Jun 12, 2017 - 12:20 PM. -
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 11:37 AM
Thanks for your input! Good to hear the science, where do you work? On the beaches South of Daytona there are "Turtle Persons" on every beach who rise before dawn to walk the beache looking for nesting turtle tracks and new nests.
Everyone involved in the Florida 300 race is instructed to make sure the local turtle patrol has recorded the track (they record the length and time of the track) before even walking on it.
The actual nests are marked by the turtle patrol with stakes and tape.
The boats are moved above the highest tide line with bows pointing out to sea and nothing is left touching the sand except the hulls, cat tracks and everything else is placed on top of the boats.
Occasionally a racer will get to the boat in the morning to find a new nest has been found under or directly in front of their boat. When that happens, and after the nest is recorded and marked, the boat is lifted and moved without disturbing the nest.
There are so many sea turtles and nests from Daytona south that it's sometimes hard to believe they are endangered, but I know they are. Hopefully they make a comeback like deer and alligators to where they become pests.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 11:47 AM
Education for both the local catamaran sailors and the turtle protectors is the key.
Catamaran sailors need to know how to mitigate any effect on wildlife, but the local authorities need to understand the difference between a sailboat that barely touches the sand and is light enough to easily move around and powerboats and jet skis, which sometimes get lumped together in ordinances.
This is an extremely serious issue and I hope Florida sailors understand they could easily find themselves in the same "boat" as the West Coast (where the beachcat was invented) where it's pretty much illegal to touch the beach with any kind of boat anywhere that is not a marina.
At least in your area there is a long history of cars driving on the beach, compared to hot rods beachcats should be no big deal!
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 11:47 AM
I can tell you that turtle patrol people are generally like animal shelter people, animals (turtles) are more important than people. Generally there is very little rational thought, it is all emotion based reaction. Human activity on beaches causes almost no issues with nesting turtles, unless you are actively interfering with a female from laying her nest or digging up the eggs.
Going to the city with a group of locals informed of the ways turtles are actually impacted, what are the actual threats to their survival, and how little your beach cats will affect any of the above is the only way to go. Hopefully, you have a city council with rational folks.
Thankfully, Texas has the Open Beach Act declaring all beaches open to the public. I know north of the City of South Padre Island, in Cameron County, we have always been allowed to drive on the beach as far north as we like. However, if it were up to the turtle nuts (not talking about wildlife biologists, but the emotion folks) no humans would be allowed on the beach at all, without being part of turtle patrol.
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Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 02:36 PM
I live in Jacksonville, and there is a park on the north side of the St John's River called Huegenot Park. You can drive on the beach and launch your catamaran's here and camp.
During the summer I like to get there on Friday and sail, then camp on Friday night and sail early Saturday morning. Usually the park manager will let me leave my catamaran on the beach by the lifeguard tower so I don't have to break it down overnight. It is a city of Jacksonville Park and it is basically up the the discretion of the park manager as to whether or not you can leave your catamaran on the beach overnight. I just renewed my annual pass, and asked if I could still do this. The park manager was not in but the assistant cited turtles nesting on the beach as the only possible reason why I couldn't do this. I will ask the park manager and let you all know what answer I receive.
On the south side of the St John's is Mayport Naval Base, Hanna Park and then Atlantic Beach. In Atlantic Beach, you can leave your catamaran on the beach from Memorial Day to November 1 which is prime turtle nesting season. You have to get a permit but there is no cost and no residency requirement. Ironically, there is no mention of turtle nesting protocol, but they do request you secure your halyards in a way that prevents the wind from clanking the halyard against the mast.
Good luck, I remember Flagler Beach when there was just a biker bar there and you could camp on the beach no problem.
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Kenneth Purdy
Hobie 16
Nacra 5.2 (2)
Banshee
First Coast, Florida
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 02:59 PM
Bring it down to Daytona. We keep beach cats on the beach behind Perry's Resort all Summer Long!!
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Pete
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DeLand, FL
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 03:03 PM
In fact come join us for the Summer Sizzler June 24th and 25th. It is the only Ocean Buoy race in Florida and we are in need of more cats to sign up this year to keep the event happening. It is happening the same time as Hobie Nationals and our registrations are low this year with a lot of guys heading to South Dakota for the Hobie event. It's a fun event at a great venue. More information can be found in the Events Calendar on Beachcats.com.
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Pete
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DeLand, FL
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 03:07 PM
Thanks for the invite I will consider it.
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John Noble
Hobie Wave
Flagler Beach, Florida
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 04:17 PM
This is big part of the issue right there.
When we were trying to get Hobie Beach reopened a few years back after it was destroyed by some gnarly storms the county was willing to work with us to rebuild the beach suitable for beachcats. There was no issues regarding fees or anything else as Hobie Beach was free for may years and the county saw the value it brought to the area. They initially made the access possible and would make further improvements; however, after a few months the county decided to make no further improvements and even decided shut the project down... there just wasn't enough usage for them to justify the expense in maintenance to keep it going... Actually with the exception of me, there were no other users....
In this case it was a use it or lose it situation.. we lost it!
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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Posted: Jun 12, 2017 - 08:12 PM
Well, this is all very interesting. Sorry that all this red tape stuff happens these days. Now, I am going to have my boat on Okaloosa Island the first week in August. I don't know yet if I want to try to leave the boat set up on the beach or not because of a fear of it being messed with, but, who would I contact as for rules pertaining to the beach? I know you cannot leave things such as canopies up overnight but not sure about beach cats, so I am wondering who to contact?
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Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
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Posted: Jun 13, 2017 - 01:03 AM
My sister in law works for turtle patrol for St Johns County. The next county north of Flagler County and gets up at 4AM every day during nesting season to mark new turtle nests. These are reasonable people and are not anti catamaran.
But....
These very well organized organizations have PR professionals and are very well connected politically. They will ruthlessly use their power and influence with city and county governments to accomplish their (admirable) goals.
My advice is to partner with them. If you try to go the "city hall" route for a half dozen beach cats you will massively lose in the court of public opinion. You will lose to the thousands of turtle lovers in Flagler County that politicians only see as voters. You will lose access to the beach irregardless of the science, best practices, and good intentions.
The first and last rule for any politician is get re-elected and frankly they don't care about beach cat owners votes unless there are a lot of you or your very wealthy and willing to contribute to their next campaign.
Bottom line: everyone loves sea turtles and few care about beach cat access.
Good luck!
Brad in Jax
One more thought: I am digging the idea of an annual beach parking permit sticker for beach cats for Flagler County. You can pitch it to your turtle patrol as a fee dedicated to the turtle fund... -
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Posted: Jun 13, 2017 - 08:35 AM
Yes, you take a risk leaving a cat out in public overnight - we have come back to the causeway to find used condoms on our boats, kids jumping on the tramps (parents right there not caring), people making out on our tramps, 18 empty (shotgunned) Keystone light beer cans (oh the hangover that idiot must have suffered) and worse - the boat gone. we have had 1 or 2 boats pushed into the water and left.
You can mitigate these things to a degree: tie up you halyards so they don't CLANG in the wind (this drives people crazy and inspires people to come over to your cat to try and shut it up). Neatly stow all your lines, remove any items (i.e. pfds, water bottles, anchors, paddles, etc) - I personally take off my rudders since they are expensive, and i don't want someone kicking them, or a super high tide / wave slamming into them.
As per who do you contact: the local police to ask about any regulations, the local chamber of commerce, and whom ever manages the beachs (park department perhaps?).
Also see if there is a local sailing center or marina or cat fleet around. you can ask people there - or ask about mast up storage at the marina for a few days. -
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Posted: Jun 13, 2017 - 09:04 AM
bradinjax, has probably the best advice... partner with them before you are forced to fight in City Hall. They do tend to be well connected politically, and have crazy amounts of donors backing them.
Be friends, and you will have strong supporters.
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Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
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Posted: Jun 13, 2017 - 09:11 AM
And don't mention that they let us do it in Volusia....That's all we need. Good Luck!!
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Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
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2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
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Posted: Jun 13, 2017 - 09:12 AM
Maybe the difference is we drive cars on the beach in Volusia and they don't in Flagler. Come join us for the Summer Sizzler June 24th and 25th.
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Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
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