Hello All, I'm considering my first catamaran purchase and am currently thinking an Supercat 17 or Nacra 5.7 might fit the bill. I have the opportunity to buy a 5.7 that is reportedly in very good shape except the owner has let me know that there is an ~ one inch long dent in the middle of the rear cross bar. The traveler was also damaged during the incident. I've not seen the damage but am going to try to get a picture sent to me today.
I've searched the forum but haven't found any discussions regarding repairs of this nature. Has anyone run into this problem before? Maybe a body shop could help pull out the dent... Would I be better off just sourcing a used crossbeam? Maybe many Nacra's use a similar beam? Thanks in advance.
bent rear cross bar
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 07:01 AM
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 07:30 AM
by all accounts the 5.7 is a great cat
when you say the rear cross bar if you are meaning the that the whole rear beam is kinked down an inch at the centre, and that's why the traveller track is also damaged
that's pretty bad....
was the mast dropped or something?
if so check the mast, the frp beam mounts and the bottom of the hulls...
you might be able to get a new traveller track from nacra or harken, or a 2nd hand rear beam from dan berger in the classifieds on this site
most of the nacras build about the time of the 5.7 used very similar or identical parts to other nacra models
depending on the damage you may be able to just replace the harken traveller track and reuse your damaged beam by flipping it and moving the fittings
Edited by erice on Oct 11, 2013 - 07:38 AM. -
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 07:56 AM
The crossbars are no big deal to replace on the old Nacra's, especially the rear one. They are a simple 4" aluminum tube. You don't need the slot in the rear tube, so you can purchase a 4" x 1/8" wall aluminum tube from a local metal supplier, or via one of the online suppliers. If they used slugs in the slot to tie off the tramp, then simply rivet new eyes on the crossbar and tie off there. If the traveler track is the removable type and not damaged it makes it even less an issue since you won't need to purchase a track for about $120. New cars are available from Murrays and Mauri Pro Sailing.
Even the front crossbar is not a huge issue. You can purchase new Keder bar and attach it to the new tube so you have a slot to slide the tramp into. Just make sure you put the pre-bend into the crossbar before fitting the new Keder, and DO NOT try to have it welded on. You will warp the crossbar. Just rivet or install rivet nuts and bolt it up.
Edited by nacraflyer on Oct 11, 2013 - 05:57 AM.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 08:43 AM
not a huge deal, but a lot more hassle than i would want with a new boat purchase.
if the owner wants to work with you on the price (reduce the amount of the new parts) and helps you fabricate or just replace a new beam AND you want a few dozen hours learning how to (edit) fabricate(/edit) or a few hours to replace a beam (not a bad lesson for a new boat owner)
if it was me .... i would probably look at other options . its the end of the season up north (silly northerers), people are selling boats this time of year cheap (i dont know where your located)
Edited by MN3 on Oct 11, 2013 - 09:13 AM. -
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 08:48 AM
Have a 5.2 rear crossbar complete with track & car. Pete 909-800-5237 -
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 11:10 AM
Thanks so much everyone for the quick replies and great advice! So very helpful. Though I am still awaiting pictures (I'm a few hours from the boat) I feel a lot better already. I'm not at all new to boats or sailing (I own 14 boats - yikes!) but I am totally new to performance cat ownership and sailing (have yet to sail one). I want to be able to sail solo, but also with a crew which could at times include as many as 3 light-weight daughters. Because of this and because much of my sailing will be on lakes (I live in east TN), the boat size, clean tramp, and boom-less board-less design of the 5.7 and SC-17 appeal to me. I have found both of these 2 boats to be well liked but somewhat harder to locate than most. Most of the ones I've found have been very far away.
The boat I am looking at is one that was donated and being sold to raise money for charitable purposes. I have at this point talked to the last owner who bought it new in 1984 (I think the boat is a 1983). He was super nice and gave me lots of info, including mentioning the damaged crossbar. The boat has only been sailed in fresh water lakes in Michigan and not much at that given the short season. The owner said he kept in on a rack by the water during the season and only beached it gently on sandy shores occasionally. Off-season it was apparently stored in a barn until moved down south where it has been stored outside uncovered on its trailer, but with tramp and sails stored inside. Always nice talking to an owner who has nothing to gain or lose in the transaction - he has already essentially given the boat away. With the damage, I'm guessing the boat may be bought for a little less than the current asking price which is at $1,500 now. Opinions on this price range and story line are welcome of course. Also note that last week I just bought a nearby 1975 all original Prindle 16 for $600. It doesn't need too terribly much to be useable and a decent learner, but it will need a tramp before too long, needs a little delamination repair, a good going over of course, and doesn't have any trapeze rigging so I'd need to add that. It also just isn't the SC-17 or Nacra 5.7 that I think I'd enjoy more (somewhat faster, boom-less, trapezes...).
It is my understanding that the 1983 5.7 will be a fiberglass lay-up versus the core construction. From what I've read so far, though opinions vary, I'm getting the impression that if in good condition the fiberglass boats hold up just fine and are still plenty fast. It has been reported repeatedly that they are heavier but I've yet to see any numbers quantifying the actual differences. My gut tells me a little more weight isn't going to matter to me at all since I won't be spending much, if any time rolling it around on beach wheels.
To answer your question erice, the owner has no idea how the damage occurred. He said it is right in the area the trailering mast support is. He mentioned that he inspected the mast and saw no damage. I agree, the hulls should be inspected well too as obviously it took a hit from above somehow presumably while being stored on the trailer.
DangPete, I'll be giving you a call soon today or tomorrow if that's OK. Do you think the 5.2 crossbar will bolt right in without much modification needed? This sort of work doesn't scare me mind you, I'm loaded to the gills with tools and use them a lot. And I'm not shy about restoring old boats obviously. I don't need any more huge projects, but this one isn't sounding bad at all.
I greatly appreciate this forum and all of you.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 11:12 AM
Whoops! Pete, ignore the "Dang" in front of your name! I thought I had lost almost everything I had typed up to my addressing you but managed to get it back somehow.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 01:50 PM
We have an '84 N5.7 & an '88 N5.0. They were solid glass up till 84, then switched to cored. The solid glass boats are really easy to fix if holed. Don't worry about it, you're not racing, & you won't notice the difference, you'll be to busy hanging on & trying to get the stupid fun grin off your face. For your stated purposes, I don't think you can find a better boat. It will do 20 mph with you & 3 kids!
There is quite a bit of 5.7 info here if you do a search. If the mast isn't dinged & the sails, & rest of the boat is there, run & buy it, the beam is really not a big issue, the car (my Harken is about 4") might be harder to get.
Make up a checklist with all the items, blocks,(jib & main) rudders, tie bar, tiller extension, sheets, etc. Add in notes about what you're looking for, ie stitching on tramp, no dings in mast track etc. That way you won't forget anything that is $$$ later, or at least you'll know what you need to budget for. If the rest of the boat is in good condition & everything is there, even $1500 is fair, of course why not get a credit for the beam/traveler if you can.
I'm only 170lb, & I solo it right up to 25mph. In 18ish, I can self right, less wind I need another body, or a bag.They are fairly easy to get parts for. If the wind is up I can get 20-21mph, solo, double or tripled on the 5.7. The 5.0 is slightly slower, in light air the 5.7 wins with the greater sail area. When the winds honking & waters rough they really shine. For myself the limiting factor is being able to stay on the boat. I have pitchpoled them both, but you really have to work at it.
Here is an album I made, might help you, there are photos of the traveler etc. The single best upgrade I did was put roller furling on both boats, here is some intel I compiled.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=71715
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=88268
I dinged a front beam, on the 5.7, they are really easy to change, as long as the bolts are not seized. It will take longer to re-attach the tramp. Grease the bolts when re-installing. You probably won't have end caps, I think I have all the remaining brand new ones, courtesy of ERICE. Nacraman57 has an album in TECH TIPS showing how to make some for cheap.
Down load the 2 manuals here, courtesy of Damon. Open the link, then look for a "download entire file" or something like that. PAy attention to rotating the mast when you raise/drop it, or you'll bust the lower casting. There is a photo in my album that shows exactly why you need to do this.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=35212
Pay attention to holding the beam chips straight, & don't over torque the bolts,(18 ft lb-that isn't much). I would not bother with trying to buy and McGyver a tube/track, you can buy the entire beam with track, slugs, & pad eyes for probably less than $100. At least that's what I'd sell one for. I had a bunch of extras, sent a few away to a chap in Michigan with a 5.2 rebuild. I still have a complete set, but I think the guys in the USA can ship quite a bit cheaper. Sounds like Pete has them, Dan Berger is almost a road trip for you. Both people are reputable vendors of used parts.
The 5.0, 5.2, 5.7 all use the same beam, BUT, depending on year, the track differs. There were also some differences in length as the rules about trailering width changed. Measure your old one to be sure, it should be around 95". There should be a little tab riveted near each end that goes up against a small tang on the side of the hull. Some early beams did not have the 1/2 moon chocks just inside the end of the beam,(a bolt goes through into the hull, in addition to the beam straps)
The older ones(late '70's) used a traveler like the last 3 photos in this album. This uses a different track than the Harken.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=82971
Boats from the early 80's on used the Harken non captive bearing traveler. Later 80's went to an integrated track, that is part of the beam, & extends to the ends of the beam, vs only going to the hulls for the '82-'84. This just allows you to travel out further, the dimensions are the same, & they take the same Harken car. If you slide the car off the end of the track, all your bearings will pull a Houdini, that is why they call them non captive.
Have a close look at the car, see if it slides freely when pulled upwards.if it is only bearings, that is inexpensive. Look for damage where the beam bolts on, if something hit hard enough, it may have cracked the hulls at the attach points. I don't think you will find damage on the bottom of the hulls. The 5.0 & 5.7 are skeg hulls, not as robust as say a Hobie 16, but there is quiter a lot of material there.
Post when you get it, if you want any other info, post here, or PM me.
One last thought if you go with the 5.2 beam. The straps are slightly different,(IIRC they are 1/4" longer on the 5.7). As long as the original straps are OK, just use them. NOTE: there should be little rubber chips under each " beam chip", if missing just make some out of an old inner tube. The straps don't always move down against the hull. Don't wind the bolts down trying to make that happen, stay at 18 ft lbs! Read the 2 manuals carefully, then read them again, it's amazing how many little things can be missed.
You may already know this but many photos in posts can be enlarged to full size by clicking on them, also in the albums, text often gets truncated, click on photo to get it all.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 02:37 PM
Edchris177, would you mind if I moved your Nacra 5.7 album
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=71715
into the technical help section so more people could find it?
Moving it doesn't change the URL.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
How To Create Your Signature
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How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 03:12 PM
I don't mind. Initially I put it under MEMBERS just to show what Cat I had. I keep adding crap to the album in order to link photos to posts, & I'm to lazy to resurrect my Photobucket account.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 03:30 PM
Maybe I'll make a new album in Technical and cherry pick the Nacra 5.7 detail picks from you album. Unless you want to do it. Pictures like that help a lot of folks, just wanted them to be easier to find.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
How To Create Your Signature
How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar
How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 07:08 PM
I'm not sure how to migrate pics from where they are to a new album. If you want to create the album, & move photos, go for it, I'll go in and clean up/enhance the captions. Some of them were early attempts & don't really describe what I was thinking.
Plus I also have some other hi res photos I took showing specific details that I could add later.
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Posted: Oct 11, 2013 - 07:34 PM
One important detail re new cars.
I'm not sure if you can still buy the non captive bearing cars. The newer style car, with little clips that keep the bearings in place when you remove the car DO NOT FIT the older style non CB track. Harken says non CB cars are available, but I think they are hard to find;
http://www.harken.com/upl…uct_Support/PDF/4970.pdf
Look at the following diagram.
http://www.harken.com/upl…ice/Track_size-chart.pdf
See top row, 2nd from left. (Item 373). See the small groove on each side? Those grooves accommodate the wire clips. The older track, for non CB cars does not have that groove, (profile looks like the bottom row of tracks, Big boat).
Don't order a new CB car thinking it will slide onto old style track, it won't!
Here I just found the link;
http://www.harken.com/upl…_QuickService_online.pdf
There are basically 2 cars, a shorty, around 3" long, & one around 4 1/2".
Our 5.0 uses the shorty, the 5.7 has the longer one, seen here;
The shorties are for sails to 135 sq ft, the longer up to 165 sq ft. If you were to come across an old car, look at the bearings. White or black is Delrin,(lo-load), greenish brown is Torlon(hi-load).Old shorty cars, with Delrin only have a working load of 500lb,(Torlon is 850). The longer cars are 1250. On the boomless design, you use lots of sheet tension, therefore car loading. When you replace the beam, review how to orient it,(in manual). The beam will NOT sit with the track straight up & level, it is biased towards the bow. Set it so the top of track faces the sail clew.
Edited by Edchris177 on Oct 11, 2013 - 08:11 PM.
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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Posted: Oct 12, 2013 - 08:26 PM
Outstanding!!! Thank you so very much every one and particularly Edchris177. I couldn't ask for better help and guidance! EXACTLY what I need. I am so excited and feeling quite confident now that this cat is the one for me. I should receive better pictures of the boat Monday or Tuesday I'm told... I will keep you posted and back in touch soon.
I haven't had time yet, but will carefully read and view all the referenced material and links tomorrow. Thank you again. I so appreciate the time taken to help me out. -
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Posted: Oct 14, 2013 - 12:30 PM
Though I think I've already got enough information from all you fine folks to chart a path forward, I thought I'd share the words and pictures sent to me by the current keeper of the boat. Also see if I'm capable of following instructions well enough to successfully create an album and links to pictures in this forum.
First off, the gentleman responded to my dent inquiry with these words:
The crossbeam, at the location of the mast fitting, looks as if someone put it in a vise and squeezed it down to 3-1/2 " high rather than the 4" it should be. Most of the distortion is on the top, and it returns to a round x-section within about a foot either way (strictly naked eye estimates, but I did put a tape on it to get the 3-1/2" reading). There does look to be a very slight bend in the crossbeam, but it's hard to see. Without the fittings, it would be easier to measure.
*** Link to album added by admin ***
http://thebeachcats.com/pictures/?g2_itemId=106159
He provided the following pictures:
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Posted: Oct 14, 2013 - 02:13 PM
Looks and sounds like a mast was dropped on the crossbar. (or a pine tree...)
Not the first time that has happened to anyone.
If it was a mast, the force required to squish that beam could have severely folded the mast to an unusable state.
Is the existing mast OK?
The owner at the time could have replaced just the mast, hoping that the traveler track would still be usable.
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Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
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Posted: Oct 14, 2013 - 07:04 PM
The little I can see of the boat looks OK, heck it still has end caps on the beam,& the covers on the end of the mast spreader bars look good. If the rest is in that good of shape, buy it, NOW, before Damon sees the light & runs out & steals it.(He won't admit it, but secretly he wants a 5.7)
It's hard to see in the photos, but the traveler track looks OK, unless there is a kink in it. If it is a gentle bend, it will most likely pull straight when bolted to another beam. Buy the cheapest rear beam you can find, if it comes with track, so much the better.(if track is kinked look for abeam with track) You can see a few of the countersunk bolts that hold the track on. Underneath each one there is a hole drilled in the beam that will accept a socket(5/16"IRC, you will need a 4" extension). They are self locking SS nuts. There will be a couple of screws that hold the beam cap in place.
When you go to slide the car off ALL THE BEARINGS WILL FALL OUT, unless you have a car loader to slide the car onto.
I suggest remove the beam, turn it upside down, remove the end stop, then slide the car off. If you don't have the plastic car loader when you go to re-assemble, put the bearings into the car, then squirt shave cream or toothpaste into the races. That will keep the bearings in place while you slide the car on the track, & will wash out first time in the water.
That track is the HArken Small Boat non captive bearing track. The car does not show up in the photos, if it's toast, you need to find a non CB car. I have one, but I'm reluctant to sell it, as it didn't roll as smoothly as it should when we removed it. I'm not sure if it only needs new bearings & end caps, or if the races are worn from sand. If you get in a bind I can send it to you, use it til you find another.
The beam straps appear to be loose. I can see daylight between strap & top of beam. The little chips between the strap & bolt may not always go flush against the hull, but those look to loose.
Notice the rubber grommets that go against the hull are missing. Just fold a bit of inner tube in two, & punch a 5/15" hole for the bolt, or use any such rubber material you have handy.
The rudders are no rigged correctly. The bungee should go through the tiller tube, as per the manual. Remember to put a 1" piece of garden hose, or similar material on the bungees, between the end of the tiller tube & the rudder. That will prevent dinging the rudder, as it comes fully up & hits the tiller tube, as you can see in one photo. Use 5/16", or even 3/8" bungee.(some say 3/8" is to big, but it goes through the tube easy if you pull the pins out first, stretch the bungee, then shove the pins back through) Run it through the rudder & bit of hose, then up through tiller tubes. Grab the ends with vice grips & pull enough tension to make the rudders come up to at least horizontal. Slide the pivot pin for the pivmatic release in between the two bungee lines. Then hog ring around the end of the tiller tube. When you release the vice grips the bungee will retract 1/2" till it hits the pin going through the tube. Voila,a damn fine rudder system. Read the section on aligning rudder blades, then do it.
I have a description & photos of proper rigging somewhere in my albums.
Not sure what kind of hiking stick that is. You will need one that extends at least to 8'. Even longer is better. When sailing solo you need to be able to stand on the front beam when going upwind, you want to bury the bow 1/2 way...don't worry it won't go asz over tea kettle.
The sail has the standard old style Nacra batten caps, can't tell what the sail is like, hopefully it has not been left out in the elements for a coons age.
You will probably need to budget for some lines. The only costly one is the main sheet. All the others are pretty cheap.
If you want roller furling I think I can line you up with an almost brand new Harken 435 for $200 Canadian. (It's not mine, but its been listed for months now).
MAKES SURE THE MAST IS NOT BENT, or the track severely dinged. You can find NACRA masts for appx $150, but they cost $$ to ship, & the 5.7 uses a 30' stik, harder to find than the more common shorter ones.
You say it's only a couple hours drive? Go down there with hard cash & see if you can drag it home for 1 Large.
Big ticket items, main blocks should be 7:1 Harken, jib blocks ratcheting Harkens. Spread sails out, look for missing/ broken battens, condition of sail, rips, batten pockets torn loose, or tears around the bolt rope. Zipper on jib runs smoothly entire length? Look over the hulls for obvious damage, the VIN # will be stamped on the transom of the right hull. The sides of these will flex a bit in places, but they shouldn't make noise, or have soft areas.
Look over the tramp for rips, rotted looking fabric, & stitching pulling out or missing. They can be restitched for $40, a new one is appx $400.
Don't expect the trailer lights to work or the tires to have air in them. I would almost buy 2 bearing kits & change them out before you hit the hiway.
You will have the most fun recreational Cat ever built! We sail the crap out of ours, I was washed off the wire last week in rough water. They will max out around 33 clicks, your kids will love it. Try to find some shorty kayak PFD's, & some harnesses, that boat will fly a hull in 10 mph...unless you weigh 300 lbs.
Edited by Edchris177 on Oct 14, 2013 - 07:32 PM.
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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Posted: Oct 15, 2013 - 09:16 AM
Thanks so much again. Excellent information. The original owner tells me he looked at the mast carefully and could find no damage but I'll also give it a good going over in addition to all the other excellent tips on what to look for. He also mentioned the need to loosen the beam retaining straps when installing/removing the tramp so I guess it's possible the straps were simply left loose (the tramp is not on the boat now). I was also told that he always stored the sails inside but I don't know about during the season - I'll check on that since he's so willing to talk and enjoyable to talk to. I do know the tramp and sails have been off and stored inside for the past 10 years at least that the boat has gone unused and that prior to the last 10 years or so the boat was stored in a barn in the off season (most of the year in Michigan).
The owner told me that although the boat is rigged for double traps, he kept the harnesses when he donated the boat. He mentioned these harnesses have the pfd built into them(?) Total noob here, I know nothing of these things. He told me they're very nice, in very good shape and is willing to sell to me very cheaply ($20 each). I figured these are probably worth picking up even if I were to keep the Prindle 16, yes?
Thanks again so much for the continued help and encouragement. I'm going to re-contact the original owner and the man working at the charity and make arrangements to head down. Guess I need to get the Prindle up for sale too... Looking at the classifieds I'm now thinking I possibly paid too much for it. Oh well, live and learn. It does seem complete at any rate, is in fairly good shape for what it is (must only be fresh water use), and does have a nice aluminum trailer with real suspension and shock absorbers. Lots of great original literature came with the P 16 too.
Another question: You think there is any chance that the rear cross beam from the 1975 P 16 would fit the 1983 N 5.7? Just had to ask. -
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Posted: Oct 15, 2013 - 11:43 AM
Makes sense, but you only need to loosen the front beam, the rear can be left tight, you just unlace the line.
I'm not familiar with built in PFD's. Have a look at them, if they're useable, & fit, $20 is a good price.
An aluminum trailer is the best. They are light, never have to paint them. See what the one that comes with the boat looks like, then keep the best.
If you decide to sell the aluminum one, send MN3 here a PM, he is looking for one.
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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Posted: Oct 21, 2013 - 01:50 PM
Just a quick note to say thanks again for all the help. While making the final contact to head over to inspect, and likely buy the Nacra 5.7 last week I learned someone just beat me to it. Frustrating as always but oh well. I've got lots of great information here at any rate and the hunt will continue.
