I have brand new epo2 rudders and I want to drill the right holes the 1st time. I read a few articles here and there isn't anything clear on how to measure the proper angle on undrilled rudders. I have the new shrouds and forestay for the boat, (shorter shrouds, longer forestay). This will give me a larger rake on the mast but the current rudders I have, the tiller tug is big as is. with the increase in the rake, It will be worse.
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Ed Lavin
Time on the water doesn't count on the clock of life
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Weathering the Helm hobie 16
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Posted: Feb 14, 2013 - 06:00 AM
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Posted: Feb 16, 2013 - 06:16 AM
I purchased a metal template from my local Hobie dealer for drilling the holes. It will indicate all of the hole positions for all Hobies. Note that adjustable and non adjustable upper casstings, the holes are different for the same boat. For example the H-16 with adjustable and a Hobie 16 with non adjustable the holes are slightly different. There may be a paper template available. -
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Posted: Feb 18, 2013 - 05:26 AM
If you do not have them I would find a set of adjustable uppers. NOW is the time to change. If you get the rudders out of adjustment just a little you will have the weather helm you have now or lee helm because you went too far the other way. HTH, Ricardo.
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Lake Perry KS
H-18
N-5.5 UNI +spin
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Posted: Feb 20, 2013 - 09:42 PM
I was able to get the template from hobie that I can print out and wrap around my rudders. it has marks for drilling non adjustable uppers. I have 2 of the regular nylon rudders that I was planning to play with to get the right holes with so I would only drill the epo's 1x. when I find the perfect spot, accounting for mast rake, then I think I'll have it. The adjustable uppers run about $200 each that I've seen and after replacing the the sheets, the block, the tramp and stiffening the boat, all the standing rigging...I'm good (I think). I'm just looking to set the boat as best as it can be for 2 reasons. I'm looking to get the most out of the boat and get it wired. The hobie 16 is a great boat and it will fly but to me, its just as important to understand how the boat works and the engineering behind it so as I go to a bigger boat, I have a solid foundation.The 2nd is that I know I weigh too much for a hobie 16. I love beer, sleeping in, cheeseburgers, naps just like the majority of my friends. I'm going to get an 18' boat within the next few years max if not by the end of the season. Maybe it would be better not to drill the epo's at all and hold them for the next boat. Again gentlemen, Thank you so much for your help. In regards to the adjustable upper castings, how much play do you get? can you adjust them on the fly based on your mast rake? if that is the case, it would most likely be worth getting the adjustable ones.
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Ed Lavin
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Posted: Feb 21, 2013 - 04:31 AM
I have a set of adjustable upper rudder casting for a H-16 $50 plus shipping for the pair, if you are interested. -
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Posted: Feb 21, 2013 - 12:22 PM
FYI....You can only benefit from raking the mast back to the point where you just go block to block on the mainsheet. Any further and you won't be able to sheet tight to flatten the sail. If that's your main in your avatar, I don't believe much rake will be allowed or flattening will occur. New shrouds, forestay, rudders, castings, etc. are nice, but they aren't going to make up for a stretched/blown mainsail.
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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Posted: Feb 21, 2013 - 05:29 PM
Jerome, the main sail isn't crisp but it doesn't have any issues. I have another that is in great shape that I can swap out. What is the main difference with the adjustable castings? can you adjust for the rake after they are drilled? forgive me but I don't know, its only my 2nd season. I was trying to find the benefits in forums but no luck.
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Ed Lavin
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Posted: Feb 21, 2013 - 06:38 PM
I might be able to use the adjustable upper castings if no one else needs them here... i'll look into the difference between those and the ones i have... all stock early 80's setup. I do feel I'm tugging pretty good when really going fast > over 15 knots
Tim
grovertim@gmail.com
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Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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Posted: Feb 21, 2013 - 08:48 PM
Tim, help me clarify please. my boat is a '79 hobie 16. my castings are not adjustable, not these:
http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=50-10412011&Category_Code=C-HF&Store_Code=MS
with an adjustable lower casting will I be able to compensate for the tiller tug with out re-drilling the rudders. when I looked up the upper casting on Murrays sails, you get this:
http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MS&Product_Code=50-10362011&Category_Code=
which also seems to have adjustments as well. it seems to me that if you have a hobie that's 1984 or younger, you don't have these issues. wha wah.
when the wind is 15 knots or better, I feel that tug as well. Now that I have the modern standing rigging and I'm going to increase the mast rake to go block to block, I have a feeling that my work out routine of naps, beer and cheeseburgers is going to be altered slightly so I can hold that line. I'm hoping to get in the ball park here with the drilling template on my nylon rudders. I was kinda hoping I could find find the right position and drill the carbon rudders 1x. Something tells me me I'm going to sail, stop , epoxy, re-drill, sail, stop repeat until I get to a "slightly weathered helm". Good thing I've been fixing surfboards for 22 years :( or I'd feel like I got rooked on this boat. Let me know what you come up with Tim. I wont have an answer until later in your season because the water up here is 38*F, give me ten degrees and maybe you can save me a little epoxy work.
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Ed Lavin
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Posted: Feb 22, 2013 - 12:44 PM
Ricardo's advice is spot on, and HULLFLYER's offer is very generous.
The "adjustable" lower castings are of no consequence. All they have that's different is that set screw in the front. It is supposed to limit how far forward the rudder can go when locked down....which is a non-issue. As someone else cleverly observed, all adjusting the set screw really does is adjust how deep of a hole you want to gouge in the front of the rudder blade. Many experienced H-16 owners with adjustable lower castings remove the set screw and throw it away.
The adjustable upper castings, if compatible with your lowers, are the shiznit. Instead of having the fixed rolled pin to engage the notch in the rudder cam (which requires precise hole drilling), they have a plate that can be slid fore and aft and locked in place with the bolt whose head you see on the top of the casting in the Murrays picture. These offer a pretty wide range in adjustment......more than enough to mitigate for improperly drilled holes in the blade.
You can find a lot of detailed info on this and other Hobie specific topics in the Hobie forums. There are three or four FAQs on rudders alone....written by factory reps. (Apologies, Damon, but it's true. I like hanging out on your site better, though!)
Edited by rattlenhum on Feb 22, 2013 - 01:25 PM.
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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Posted: Feb 22, 2013 - 05:28 PM
Since i have three complete sets of rudder assemblies i can try all 3 on different days ;) and see which set is perfect.... Don't get me wrong, under moderate sailing there's no issue.. Maybe the ( ~5-7lbs ) tug at high speeds is good in case you fall off boat it will point to wind and stop rather quickly versus sailing half a mile away with no one on board! Question..... could you not just use small washers on upper end of rudder pin( gudgeon? ) to make rudders go slightly more-under the boat/lean forward more? I would assume one or two degrees would make a noticeable difference?
One off topic question.... older hobies have two block holders on the boom.... does the bigger/longer of the two blocks go in front?
You guys are great! Love sailing even more the more I read :)
Tim
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Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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Posted: Feb 23, 2013 - 06:16 PM
Tim, I'm going to get the adjustable upper castings which should work with my boat. I'll be able to use the template from hobie and set a neutral/slight weathered helm. I agree with you that I'd rather have my boat stop quick if I fall trap'd out. as far as the sea way block set up, I don't know. I use the 6:1 harken blocks. I go to the loop closest to the end of the boom so my main blocks come close together.
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Ed Lavin
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Posted: Feb 24, 2013 - 10:34 AM
Doubt it really matters, but I think the block with the becket goes in back. Here's a pic of the reeving:
http://www.waldorfs.com/block6.JPG
I suppose washers may be worth a try. You'd be limited by the hole in the deck, and may have some pin/gudgeon alignment/wear issues if the top gudgeon is offfset relative to the bottom.
Sounds like splitting hairs, but weather helm and tiller load (tug), while related, are two different things. Helm has to do with center of effort Vs, center of lateral resistance and depends on mast rake, sheeting, weight distribution, etc. Tiller load is more a function of how efficient the rudders are operating. You can have a boat that is well balanced with a slight weather helm (heads up slowly if left to it's own steerage). If the rudders don't lock down properly (rudder rakes aft), it will have significant tiller load even though the aft rudder rake doesn't change the CLR much, so the actual weather helm (tendency to head up) isn't really changed. Conversely, take a boat with sweet rudder rake (and therefore tiller load), center and sheet the main and loosen the jib to load up the aft part of the boat, and it will head up like crazy. Or travel in and sheet the jib, loosen the main, and watch it dive off the wind. In these latter case, the tiller load will be unchanged, but the helm changed greatly.
Another important thing to take from this is that, when you're beam or broad reaching hard and the jib is really loaded up (lots of pressure on the front of the boat), keep a tight grip on the mainsheet and don't expect the thing to head up right away when you break a trap line, regardless of your tiller load! (No need to ask how I know!)
Edited by rattlenhum on Feb 24, 2013 - 10:40 AM.
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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Posted: Mar 15, 2013 - 06:27 PM
Hull flyer, thank you. so at a quick glance, will I be able to get the adjustable upper castings to work with my lower non-adjustable castings? do I need to replace the cams? The upper castings don't have the bar that the nonb-adjustable castings have
thank you :)
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Ed Lavin
Time on the water doesn't count on the clock of life
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