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Nacra 5.5 rudders overhaul  Bottom

  • Just started working on the rudders for the Nacra 5.5 uni overhaul. Overall they seem in pretty good shape. I'd just like to strengthen any worn areas (rivets) and make them reliable, while taking out some slop where I can. I'll be adding all new down-lines and up-bungee. I'm aware that many get rid of the bungee and install pull-up lines, but I don't want to go there just yet, and will try to get the original system working well. I'll outline my basic questions directly below, then post pics after that with more detail. I've searched the internet for everything related to Nacra rudders, and have read countless pages on here and also Catsailor. I've found many good tips and tricks. Nonetheless, I'll share what I'm working with here, and I still have some unanswered questions.

    So (onwards with the longest rudder post ever):

    1. Pivot hole in blades worn and sloppy. Fill and re-drill? Use existing holes and pad insert with epoxy?
    2. Castings are not the type with a delrin screw for blade rake adjustment. How major is this going to be in tuning the helm pressure?
    3. bolt through end of tiller tube from cross-tie attachment is badly worn/oversized. Can I cut off an inch of tiller tube and drill new holes?
    4. Add a sheave on the pin in the casting that the pull-down line runs over?
    5. Proper hardware for each end of pintle?

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113019&g2_serialNumber=3
    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113020&g2_serialNumber=3

    The pivot hole through one of the rudder blades is badly worn (first photo). The metal insert, which the pivot bolt goes through, falls out of the blade easily. It is massively sloppy, and I'm concerned this will be felt through the helm. The other blade's pivot hole/insert seems pretty snug still (second photo). Of all the slop issues (many more below) this one seams the trickiest to fix. I've heard of people filling the hole and redrilling it. What filler product would be used? Any other options? Could I just pack some epoxy around the worn insert and make sure its centered in the hole as it dries? Should I not worry about it at all? It's not a race boat, but there's so many sources of slop in the steering right now, and I'd like to address as many as I can without getting to deep into it.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113036&g2_serialNumber=3
    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113037&g2_serialNumber=3

    The second set of rudder blades are definitely in rougher shape. Not terrible though, so I could use them instead. The pivot holes don't seem worn to the point of needing fixing. They blades are a *slightly* different shape, with a little deeper curve on the upper leading edge. Somebody has taken a grinder to them and removed a little more from the curve, making it deeper still. It's a bit of a hack job, that makes them look pretty beat up in addition to having more wear and tear. I'm guessing the grinding was so they could be pulled down further and get more blade rake under the boat (given the castings don't have rake adjustment screws). Until I get the boat on the water I won't know if the helm is heavy or light and if I'll miss the rake adjustment or not. Otherwise I might have to balance it with mast rake only.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113022&g2_serialNumber=3

    Castings look good. They must be a very old style, as they don't have the delrin screw (or hole for one) for rake adjustment (bummer). Oddly, of the 8 rivets in each casting holding the tiller arm, the 4 on the inside were stainless, and the 4 on the outside were aluminum. This was true for both port and starboard rudder assemblies. Can't imagine why. Like most aluminum rivets on this boat (shaking my head) they were loosey goosey and corroded. I replaced them with stainless and it locked down the tiller in the rudder casing nice and firmly, taking out a lot of play. Gudgeons look solid on the transom, and the only thing I will do is renew the silicon around them.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113035&g2_serialNumber=3

    The port tiller appeared bent downwards (i'm assuming) as it barely cleared the hull. I inserted a piece of dowel into the tiller arm, and screwed the casting down to a heavy log round, and gently bent the tiller tube back up to match the starboard side. I held my breath during this operation, but I didn't hear any bad sounds or see any stress cracks. It didn't take much bending. Note all the extra holes in the tiller arms from previous setups (that is the general theme of this 35 year old boat). It looks as though the rudder pull down used to be internally routed and exited half way along the tiller tube (the large hole) and then through a side-mounted cleat (the small holes). The pivmatic system it currently uses was probably added later.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113009&g2_serialNumber=3

    The tiller to tiller-crosstie attachment is the type with the welded bolt. I can see what people mean about your steering locking up if this piece pivots out of place. Obviously the welded bolt helps, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility. Any better ideas to absolutely avoid it happening? Again, the four aluminum rivets holding the stainless 'prongs' were were fatigued with heaps of play, so I replaced with stainless rivets and it firmed it up nicely.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113021&g2_serialNumber=3

    Another view of the tiller to tiller-crosstie attachment. Note the deformed tiller tube from overtightened bolt. Also, the bolt hole through the tiller tube is *very* worn and oversized, creating a huge amount of slop. I'm wondering if I can drill a new hole, say, one inch down the tube toward the rudder casing. Would this create any problems. Could I cut of the inch or so with the old worn hole?

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=112993&g2_serialNumber=3

    Very worn bolt hole through tiller tube, at the tie bar connection.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113010&g2_serialNumber=3

    Shims around the pivot bolts were shot. I'll cut new disc out of milk bottle plastic or similar.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113008&g2_serialNumber=3

    This is the pin inside the rudder casting, just under the tiller tube, that I've learned the rudder pull-down line must pass over the top of. I've also heard some assemblies have a small sheave on this pin. Is this a recommended/necessary upgrade?

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=112994&g2_serialNumber=3

    The pivmatic looks kinda tired The composite part is quite perished and looks like it would crumble or crack pretty easily. I guess I'll go with it, assuming the cleat still grips ok. The starboard side looked like a newer composite piece was installed (it was more black than grey like this port side one).

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113006&g2_serialNumber=3

    I don't like this at all - pin holding the top of the pintle. Looks like it could get hung up with the rudders being turned hard, and even pop out. The bottom attachment was better - a small closed split ring. What is the preferred hardware? Small split ring (like in the second photo below) on both ends? I shouldn't need to take the rudders on and off very often, so quick removal isn't an issue.

    http://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=113007&g2_serialNumber=3

    Now, to try and remember all those tricks for proper/easy line/bungee replacement...



    Edited by sierracat on Feb 23, 2015 - 12:44 AM.

    --
    Tom
    Nacra 5.5 Uni
    (actually a chopped down 18sq)
    (soon to be 5.5 sloop)
    Northern California
    --
  • Nice write up. It takes a little bit to take it all in but I think that I got it. Feel free to correct me if I missed something.

    You pretty much got it down, all valid points, nothing left field. The thing that I love about having these older boats is that there are so many ways to fix and improve things. I'll give you my 2 cents but I'm sure that there are a million different ways and opinions and I wouldn't discount any of them.

    1. You could use marine tex to clean up the sloppy-ness in those rudders, you can fill and drill, which is a nice off season project. I would probably use marine tex and the bushing and save yourself the drill operation.

    2. I have a older 5.2. I don't have adjustable rudders, but I don't have as much of a need as I did with my hobie 16 where I was always playing with mast rake constantly. I would have retrofitted by now if I did. :) I'd only worry about it if you have helm issues with very little mast rake.

    3. I replaced my tiller connection. I machined my own out of delrin and it is a simplified version of the hobie 20 tiller connection system which you can find at Murray's. I can't seem to find my pictures but if I can dig them up I will share. I strongly disliked the original setup and I would recommend replacing it with something else. It was flimsy and always was too lose.

    4. I would add sheaves or even bushings that would spin where ever you can. Makes life easier. Just test it out on land and my sure that you didn't cause another issue while fixing something else.

    5. I'd use a smaller safety pin of some kind. Your feelings about that one are probably right, it would be pretty easy for a sheet to get caught up on that somehow. Weirder things have happened.

    --
    Cesar (Cez) S.
    Hobie 16 (had a few)
    Nacra 5.2 "Hull Yeah"
    Vectorworks XJ - A class (not named yet)
    West Michigan (Grand Rapids/Holland Area)
    --
  • Quote1. Pivot hole in blades worn and sloppy. Fill and re-drill? Use existing holes and pad insert with epoxy?

    Dremel out any loose material, also cutting away some material underneath the current fibreglass will give the new epoxy something to bond to. Do all boards at one time. Place a piece of 2-3" wide masking tape over the hole on one side, then flip blades over. Mix some epoxy,(fast hardener in this case)adding microfibres,(colloidal silica is a bitch to sand), to get a consistency similar to honey, you want it to be able to "run" a bit, peanut butter is to thick. Fill the hole, then push a 5" tight fitting bolt up through the tape,(wax the bolt, it will make removal easier).
    You want the new hole to be true, so now make sure the blade is level by sitting a spirit level near the hole. Then turn the level 90* & re-level. Next, using a simple 9" carpenter square, check the bolt is actually vertical, then move the square 90* around the bolt & recheck for vertical. You will now have a hole that is perpendicular to the plane of the blade. After epoxy is "green", turn the bolt & remove, it will come out quite easy.
    Quote2. Castings are not the type with a delrin screw for blade rake adjustment.

    I would sail the boat first, & see what you have. If it turns out you need MORE rake, the adjusters won't help. If you need LESS, the castings are all the same. It is fairly easy to drill & tap them. Start with a small drill. IIRC they are 9/16" NC. I made a couple dozen a few years ago, not sure I have any left, but I do have stock, & can whip up a few more, to whatever length you need, on my 5.7 I needed them a wee bit longer than the stock part.
    Quote Can I cut off an inch of tiller tube and drill new holes?

    I would make that my last resort. You could have a small piece welded over the hole & redrill, or cut a short piece of tubing lengthwise, drill it & place over the existing hole, it won't move once you tighten the bolts. You might have to slightly expand the tube, or squeeze it in a vice to fit closely.
    Turn those bolts over! Don't leave the 1/4" of bolt sticking upwards, it WILL catch lines, & your skin. Ditto for the bolt sticking out the sides, cut it off & file smooth-you can't turn that one around as there is no room for the nut.
    Quote4. Add a sheave on the pin in the casting that the pull-down line runs over?

    There should be one there. I'm not sure how much difference it makes, but the larger the diameter, the easier it will be to pull the line.
    Quote5. Proper hardware for each end of pintle?

    Just use small split rings, like the one shown on the bottom of the pin, lose that big top end one ASAP. It will hang up the pulldown lines, & if it gets knocked off, that pin will will fall straight down, into the drink in a nanosecond. That will result in the entire rudder/casting coming off on that side. If it happens at speed, you will still be cursing this time next year!
    Use the pivmatic til the little ears break. You can buy the cleat part,(Clamcleat Midi $9 IIRC) & rivet it on. Those plastic cleats wear at the top of the teeth, especially with 1/4" line. You can get several years more life out of them by going to a slightly thinner line that seats deeper. If they won't hold the line it's a major PITA on big wind days. We are rebuilding the 5.0 ones this spring. The original pivmatic is no longer for sale, but they sell a new mechanism that also releases.
    Along with new plastic spacers, you mat still find quite a bit of slop between blade & casting. I wrapped some turns of electrical tape around the casting to take up the play-lasted 2 years.
    To prevent those "U" fittings from turning & locking your steering, just get a couple feet of SS lockwire, feed it around the U a few times, pulling it snug with pliers at each turn. It will prevent the bracket from turning. Mine has held for 3 years now.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • here are a couple of good threads on early Nacra rudders.
    http://www.thebeachcats.c…nc=viewtopic&topic=12714
    http://www.thebeachcats.c…opic/topic/13088/start/0
    http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures?g2_itemId=80972

    HTH

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --
  • Cesar, thanks so much for your input. Re: Marine Tex. I'm trying not to buy yet another product. It sounds like great stuff, but do you think a good epoxy (which I have lying around) would work to pack around the bushing? Chris - there isn't any loose material, the hole has just been ovaled out. The more I think about it, it probably doesn't warrant redrilling, just filling around the bushing a bit. Some great other tips there also, thanks Chris



    Edited by sierracat on Mar 17, 2015 - 11:44 PM.

    --
    Tom
    Nacra 5.5 Uni
    (actually a chopped down 18sq)
    (soon to be 5.5 sloop)
    Northern California
    --
  • Agreed Tom, buying all of these things adds up quick and epoxy stuff is expensive.
    I'm not a epoxy expert, so I'm speaking with limited experience, but in this case I would think that you would be ok using epoxy. Marine tex is pretty much the same thing but comes in white and is a putty consistency so a little easier to work with.
    Based on that I think that you would get by with epoxy fine. Maybe with a little bit of filler to help with consistency and strength if you have any.
    I'd personally try it. Worst case, you end up back where you are. But other than consistency and finish I don't think that marine tex offers better strength properties than normal epoxy.

    Good luck.

    --
    Cesar (Cez) S.
    Hobie 16 (had a few)
    Nacra 5.2 "Hull Yeah"
    Vectorworks XJ - A class (not named yet)
    West Michigan (Grand Rapids/Holland Area)
    --
  • Quote there isn't any loose material, the hole has just been ovaled out.
    I would remove a small amount of material, give it sort of a "V" shape, with the wide part of the "V" inside. This gives the epoxy more surface area to bond to, & the V prevents it from being pulled out.

    --
    Hobie 18 Magnum
    Dart 15
    Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
    Nacra 5.7
    Nacra 5.0
    Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
    Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
    --

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