Really more about tillers. I don't really love the tiller setup on the 5.7. I'm thinking about trying to adapt to 570 setup with the tendons. Has anyone done anything like this? I think you could do it and keep the pivmatic system, or change to up/down lines, either way.


Don't want to spend a million on all new castings etc.



Edited by tnell on Aug 03, 2016 - 04:48 PM.

--
Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
--

I'm not familiar with teh 570 setup. Do you have any diagrams or images? I have always used a telescoping tiller handle, but have not changed the stock system. If the issue is a weather helm, that can be fixed.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

I am looking for images and directions to install and setup nacra 5.7 rudders and tiller.
Please do not refer to the manual. The pictures cannot be seen.
The Xerox pdf manual is nearly impossible to seen. I tried to buy the manual from murray sports and they send a xero copy of the same thing free to download.

Can someone please post clear photos of their rudders system. A picture is worth a lot.
The manual can not be seen clearly. I'm a little surprised how difficult it is to get good clear information of the setup of this boat.

When I did go out yesterday. I could barley hold the tiller. I did not have the jib up and was wondering if that was the reason. Anyone every had the same problem?

rungi

I am looking for images and directions to install and setup nacra 5.7 rudders and tiller.
....... I'm a little surprised how difficult it is to get good clear information of the setup of this boat.

Easy cowboy. There is tons of information specifically on the factory set up of the legacy Nacra rudder set up, as well as copious information of modifications from other members. There are tons of pictures in the photo albums also (like this one below you can find in my album).
https://www.thebeachcats.…c8dbb3249e2cff8ddabda158
It's all been covered many times.

Use the advance search. Due some research. Learn about center of effort, the balance of the boat, having your rudders all the way down, the Prindle adaptor, replacing the cleat, using high quality rudder pull down sheet, fresh strong bungees, and so much more. It's all here.

Share your location, and name and maybe another member is close by. Go to a regatta.


--
Philip
--

Can you please provide links directly to question?
After stating there is tons of information on the subject,
You provide a link to unrelated subjects?
It improve the technical side of this website by only providing links or answers directly to the question or subject.

I am only asking for directions to set up rudder system for nacra 5.7 with pictures.
I am not looking for regattas or rudder modifications

The nacra manual pictures can not be seen very well.

Hey PM
I see you have made 803 post and you make a statement like this:

"There is tons of information specifically on the factory set up of the legacy Nacra rudder set up"
You go onto to send a link that has nothing to do with the question.

I am not sure what threads you have been visiting, but I have been unable to find the tons of information you speak of.

If you can send a link to details of the nacra 5.7 or 5.0 factory setup with clear pictures it would be appreciated by everyone on the site. The site is pretty bad in that it does not allow users to post images directly to the forum which would get a lot more people to post. Not sure what that is all about.

Hey I don't have a Nacra but I looked through the photo albums. I found this:
https://www.thebeachcats.…pictures?g2_itemId=80972

https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=103270

https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=103607

https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=119562

You can post images - that first image is this one:


I've only got 198 posts, hope you go easy on me! Especially since most of them are about H16s, and the rest about my SC17.



Edited by waiex191 on Aug 16, 2021 - 11:51 PM.

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--

Thanks.
Anyone know if good new stock bungee cause the rudders to go up and stay up when the rope is not cleated to hold the rudders down? My bungees seem to server no purpose.

To the OP,
You can get two dinghy tiller flexible joints and mount the rubber end in the crossbar. Then bolt the flat side to the tillers. My buddy's Bimare 18HT has this setup and it is a no slop solution.
https://www.intensitysails.com/reunjo.html
You will need to fab a bushing to go from the aluminum tube to these 1/2" rubber stock.

I run welded u-brackets on my 5.2. The spinning ones are a pain, but can be zip-tied into an operating orientation. Its on my list to go the tendon route, but it is near the bottom of my list.

--
FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer" & Nacra Playcat
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
--

The photos posted just above are all in an album I made for the N5.7 a years ago. This is the full album, you’ll have to scroll through it all, or just use the links Waiex191 posted above.
https://www.thebeachcats.…c4cc0cd52a420eb600c6d443
Here is a new thread, (it’s asking about the 5.0, but the rudders are the same, & the advice I gave is the same for both boats) asking about furling, but scroll down to the third post, just below the photo I have an explanation of rudder issues.
https://www.thebeachcats.…c/18140/start/0#pid81777

rungi

Anyone know if good new stock bungee cause the rudders to go up and stay up when the rope is not cleated to hold the rudders down? My bungees seem to server no purpose.

Yes, & No. This is the tricky part of the older Nacra rudders. Where your rudders end up when released is TOTALLY DEPENDANT ON BUNGEE TENSION.
I need the rudders to trail in the water when released, to still provide steering, as I have to be able to round up, (in shallow water), when approaching my dock.
If you stretch the bungee more, they will be pulled above the water when released. You need hog rings & hog ring pliers. Feed the bungee through, then stretch it so the rudders are where you want them, then secure with hog ring. I use a TWO pair of vice grips on the bungee, it’s impossible to stretch them with your bare hands, then apply hog ring where you want it.
Hold the bungee with one pair, & stretch...when you get the tension that gives the desired results, pull another 1/2” & clamp the 2nd pair, right at the end of the tiller tube. (You need this extra 1/2”, as when you release the bungee, it will move down a bit, til it catches on the pin in the tiller tube.).
With the bungee held, you now have both hands free to secure with a hog ring.
Use good quality bungee.
This system is not as good as my H18, or Dart, but once you set it up, they are fine.
Item last- don’t break a rudder blade. They are hard to find. There are quite a few N5.2 blades around, but they are NOT the same. They are shorter. Look at your hulls from a side view. The skeg hull boats have a definite rise just aft of the skeg, & require longer blades to be effective.
HTH, the N5.7, in my opinion is the best recreational Cat available. When going upwind, get your weight forward to force the bows down. This provides the resistance to leeway. Don’t worry about pitchpole, the 5.7 really has to be driven hard for that to happen, I’ve had water shooting off the front beam, with both bows fully down, & it recovers.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Thank you very much for your reply. that is exactly what I was looking for

I thought about this while driving home. Don’t hold me to the “1/2” extra pull”, I didn’t have my boat in front of me. Use the distance from the end of the tiller tube, (where your vice grips will be), to where the pin that will hold the bungee is.
Also, In order to waste less bungee, use a scrap piece of thin line when setting the tension. Tie the line to one end of your bungee & feed it through.
Feed the other end of the bungee through.
Now, you can use the line to stretch one side, so that the knot/join is just outside the tiller tube. Stretch the other side, & work it a back & forth, so the tension in the two equals. Then clamp with vice grips, & hog ring it.
you should only have to cut one side of the bungee.
If you stretch both sides of bungee, you end up cutting both, & wasting. It’s easier than it sounds, just play around a bit before you crimp the rings. You can leave the vice grips, (one on each side of bungee), on temporarily, & pull your rudders up/down to make sure your tension is what you want before you ring it. Get it right the 1st time, it’s hard to remove hog rings without damaging the cord.
Read the comments again about no stretch lines, & good teeth on the cleats. You want the rudders tucked tight against the stops for least tiller tug.
There was a spec somewhere about the length of bungee needed, but I can’t remember it. Buy lots, & use the extra 6’-7’ for your preventer on the jib sheets.
Secure one end to the outside end of the V-brace. Route it to the bottom of one Diamond wire attach point. Go behind the attach point - around the FRONT of the mast - behind the other Diamond wire attach point - to the other end of the V brace. It will look like an inverted “V”.
This will prevent the jib lines from hanging up on the mast base when you rack.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Thanks for all the help.
One more thing. The pintles have to be inserted through the bottom of the gudgeons to attach the cheek assembly. Are spacer required to keep the cheek assembly tight? Do you use rings or cotter pins on the upper pintle hole?

One of my rudders is very close to hitting the bottom of the boat when fully down and I think it could damage the bottom of the boat if it move a little more down. Both rudders appear to be exactly the same shape and the gudgeons appear to be in the exact same place on both hulls.

I don’t believe I’ve ever used spacers in the castings, only between the actual blades & the casting.
I just use rings & a washer to go,d the pins in place. Obviously, stainless steel,...and use a larger ring. It’s easier to manipulate in the tight space at the top.
Have a look at them every few days sailing, if one wears through,(I’ve never had it happen), the pin falls out, & the entire rudder assembly would trail, wouldn’t be fun on a fast reach.
Post a photo of your rudder in the full down position, actually make an album to show your boat, (instructions are in the FAQ section).
The rudder should not hit the hull, I didn’t think it was possible. The blade should hit the casting first, & stop there.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

All make an album later since users cant' post images directly to the forum. The rudder definitely hits the bottom if the trim screw is no touching it on mine.

I have one trim screw I was able to stop it from hitting by screwing it in. The rudders, housings and gudgeons do not appear to be bent or damaged in any way. Both the trim screws are trash now.

I want the rudders up, above the sand, when not sailing, but horizontal and on the water when starting to sail, before pulling them down. The bungee didn’t provide that and wasn’t very dependable (or maybe i didn’t try hard enough to adjust it), so i replaced it for a line ran outside the tiller arm to a second clam cleat. I has worked fine for me for many years. Before pulling the rudders up i release the pull-down line from the cleat and also pull that line back from the cleat to avoid that it cleats again in the middle of the process. Another care is to avoid having the pull-down line loose behind the cleat when launching, because it may get tangled between the rudder and the casting. It happened to me a couple times and was very annoying..



Edited by Andinista on Aug 19, 2021 - 05:21 AM.

If the rudder is hitting the bottom of the transom it is likely a rudder that was modified. Nacra only used one casting and gudgeon for all legacy boats and they just didn't hit the transom unless something was compromised or modified on the boat over the last 30 years...

The typical modification was to fill the pivot bolt hole in the rudder and reposition it or to correct the enlarged hole from wear over the years. I still have plenty of castings and short rudders for the legacy rudder setup. I also have a set of rudders that are modified for rake to balance the rig when set up for racing with a modern raked rig and sail plan.



--
Philip
--

Edchris said

Quote

(You need this extra 1/2”, as when you release the bungee, it will move down a bit, til it catches on the pin in the tiller tube.).

The pin in the tiller tube?
Are you referring to the pin that holds the pivmatic?
Do you mean that you feed the bungee over or under this pin in the tiller tube and then make a loop with the hog rings ?
then release the bungee and it catches because the loop is so big.

Or do you make a loop in the bungee and somehow get the pivmatic pin though the loop while under tension?

Go back & look at the photo I emailed you, the one showing the close up the tiller tube attached to the rudder tubes. It clearly shows where the bungee is hogringed, you can see the hog ring.

Quote

Or do you make a loop in the bungee and somehow get the pivmatic pin though the loop while under tension?

Yes, it is fairly easy to do. With the rudders down, the bungee is stretched, & thinner. Just slide a small flat blade screwdriver into the Pi magic hole, twist it 90* to force the bungee apart, then work the pin through.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Quote

If the rudder is hitting the bottom of the transom it is likely a rudder that was modified. Nacra only used one casting and gudgeon for all legacy boats and they just didn't hit the transom unless something was compromised or modified on the boat over the last 30 years...

Phillip, you are correct in something was modified, & it was something I too was unaware of.
Nacra kept much of the same fittings, but they CHANGED the actual rudder blades in the newer boats.
Eddies legacy 5.7 has had the blades changed to those supplied with the newer 500 & 570 boats.
These blades have a distinct relief moulded into them at the top end, thus allowing them to be pulled an inch or more under the hull vs the old straight blades.
I’m assuming this was done to relieve weather helm & make it easier to tame tiller tug.
The reliefs end, & the blade returns to its original shape just where it hits the bottom edge of the stern.
Our old blade shapes meant when the blade hit the casting, it was still clear of the hull, not the case with the new blades.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Edchris177

Quote

If the rudder is hitting the bottom of the transom it is likely a rudder that was modified. Nacra only used one casting and gudgeon for all legacy boats and they just didn't hit the transom unless something was compromised or modified on the boat over the last 30 years...

Phillip, you are correct in something was modified, & it was something I too was unaware of.
Nacra kept much of the same fittings, but they CHANGED the actual rudder blades in the newer boats.
Eddies legacy 5.7 has had the blades changed to those supplied with the newer 500 & 570 boats.
These blades have a distinct relief moulded into them at the top end, thus allowing them to be pulled an inch or more under the hull vs the old straight blades.
I’m assuming this was done to relieve weather helm & make it easier to tame tiller tug.
The reliefs end, & the blade returns to its original shape just where it hits the bottom edge of the stern.
Our old blade shapes meant when the blade hit the casting, it was still clear of the hull, not the case with the new blades.

There you have it . . .

The 500 and the 570 are COMPLETELY different boats than the legacy 5.0 and 5.7. The new boats have completely different rudders, rudder castings, tiller arms, etc. The beams are the new D extrusion, and the hull layup, construction is new. The jibs became more blades than overlapping, lower tack points, more rig rake (hence the new rudder rake), different main, etc.

I put several of these new designed boats together at P'cola Nacra Nationals in 2007, when the new Nacra owners were there to introduce the new line and do the photo shoots for the new marketing and brochures. I sailed all the rigs, I was part of the team who took them out of the box and put them together.

To summarize, the new Nacra 570 did NOT KEEP ANY of the same fittings from the legacy 5.7. Everything on the boat is new . . . and some hardware parts (beam extrusion, rudder castings, tiller arms and tiller crossbars) was sourced from the Inter 20, F17, and Inter 18 newer designs and updated hardware, which are totally different than the legacy 5.7.

As I stated before, Eddie (rungi) would help us out if he would share everything about his modified boat. Heck, we're just learning it's legacy 5.7 hulls . . . no clue about other details, . . . assumed 5.8 rig, sails, jib, etc. Like I said, it's all here. It's all been answered. EdChris has put together great insight and many helpful albums through the years. There are some really knowledgeable folks here.

and the rudders (SMH) . . . I shared detailed experience in a past post regarding legacy rudder tune up and operation. When it is done correctly as I discussed the rudder system works flawlessly! You can manage your rudder to any position you like, to deal with whatever, shallows, beach landing, etc. Others have chosen to modify and that is fine also, to each his own. But it's just not necessary.

I've got pictures of all the new designed boats and I should probably put together an album when I get a minute.

--
Philip
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