I'm trying to make some progress over the winter on a whole bunch of boat
stuff, one of the major items being getting a new tramp made for the Unicorn.
I have a history with a local tent+awning shop, and they've always done good
work for me, but they're far from cat specialists. Since we have the original to
work from, though, and it's not complicated, that just leaves the choice of
material.

Sailrite's "black tramp mesh" (old catalog #5624, new #562411) aka Tencate
Permatron 24109/24119 is the immediate obvious choice. Does anyone have
another preference or relevant experience that might point me elsewhere?



Edited by jonathan162 on Feb 28, 2024 - 11:12 AM.

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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Really? 72 views and still crickets?

Does this mean that everyone agrees that this is the right answer?

One of the forum members suggested this source:
https://www.trampolinepro…om/trampoline-fabric.php

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--

Cool, thanks. I've asked them for more detail - it may be the same material Sailrite carries.

If so, interesting to see that it really is the bouncy-bouncy trampoline stuff.

Carp! I keep forgetting to login each time... That was me, above.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

spammer1

You can get better material that's likely more comfortable, but it's going to be double to triple the price of real trampoline mesh.

Such as?

Well like the "Ferrari" material for one. I don't think I spelled that right. Only thing is, for all the world of people ranting over the stuff, I've never actually experienced it in real life, so YMMV. In fact, I don't even know where to buy it. Vinyl would be more comfortable, but for me it's way too hot. I'm content with what I got, though.

This tramp is made with ProTramp material, heavy trucker vinyl for the perimeter along with some 3" polypropylene webbing for reinforcement, tenara thread and nickel plated grommets. Next one will be the same except I won't use fiberglass rods for the bolt rope; it'll be sail slugs from sailrite, sewn to the outer reinforcing with webbing, kind of like a clew ring and stainless grommets only on both sides, since I just bought a package of like 500 Hiker grommets...you can only buy them in bulk, so I need to grommet stuff I guess... But, with what I've learned, I'll definitely add a through-pocket for righting line, or at least one on the underside and build the halyard pockets off the tramp completely then sew them on. I'll still stay with PTFE thread despite the hassle. And, one-piece if possible as it is so much nicer for stuff not going through (water in and lines out).

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

charlescarlis

Well like the "Ferrari" material for one. I don't think I spelled that right. Only thing is, for all the world of people ranting over the stuff, I've never actually experienced it in real life, so YMMV. In fact, I don't even know where to buy it. Vinyl would be more comfortable, but for me it's way too hot. I'm content with what I got, though.

Yeah, you got the spelling right - these guys:

https://www.sergeferrari.com/us-en/productsprotect-range/protect-meshes-392-s2

(and similar meshes they make like the 330/332, though not the ones made from coated steel cable...)

Looks a little overkill (and by extension, as you suggest, overprice) for a tramp for a small, light cat. I mean, how much do I care about the flame retardant ratings? And I'd just as soon stick with a simple weave rather than coated stuff.

Quote

This tramp is made with ProTramp material, heavy trucker vinyl for the perimeter along with some 3" polypropylene webbing for reinforcement, tenara thread and nickel plated grommets. Next one will be the same except I won't use fiberglass rods for the bolt rope; it'll be sail slugs from sailrite, sewn to the outer reinforcing with webbing, kind of like a clew ring and stainless grommets only on both sides, since I just bought a package of like 500 Hiker grommets...you can only buy them in bulk, so I need to grommet stuff I guess... But, with what I've learned, I'll definitely add a through-pocket for righting line, or at least one on the underside and build the halyard pockets off the tramp completely then sew them on. I'll still stay with PTFE thread despite the hassle. And, one-piece if possible as it is so much nicer for stuff not going through (water in and lines out).

"ProTramp"? Where can I see that?

To your other points: I get that you're tooled up for this stuff, and I normally like doing the same, but don't feel the urge in this case. I'll be improving upon the original pockets, but hadn't though about the righting line or halyard and will do so, though those seem like straightforward enough modifications/additions after it's been made i.e. don't need to happen with the initial fab. As for the bolt rope, I don't know why you'd have gone with the fiberglass rod - something rigid seems highly counterintuitive. And I'll check the track dimensions to see if the slugs can work, otherwise a conventional rope should be fine.

Incidentally, this is a two-piece tramp because there's a centerline spar between the fore and aft crosstubes. Not my favourite thing, but at least it's level with them rather than elevated above the rest of the tramp e.g. the Sea Spray 15, which is awful. The way they did it was bolt ropes threaded into the crossbeams and hull tracks, then the two halves laced together across that center tube. Contrary to your suggestion, I'm considering adding lacing gaps/grommets ahead of the aft crosstube to give me tensioning adjustment, though - again - that's something that can be added later if needed, and given that it's a una rig there's really not much chance of any lines washing through it. (I mean, that was the thing I hated about the H18 - the sheets constantly washing over the side, which was a real bitch esp. when soloing on the wire.)

But as far as material goes, unless this ProTramp stuff looks really great, the TenCate from Sailrite will probably be it.



Edited by jonathan162 on Mar 01, 2024 - 05:14 PM.

the pro tramp stuff was my by description of the trampoline material by trampolineproshop (not sure if they're any "better", but their service and price is outstanding). https://www.trampolineproshop.com/trampoline-fabric.php
It's just standard trampoline mesh, made for...trampolines... It works. Your setup is way different than mine, which is essentially identical to a H18, only bigger. I used the rods out of necessity because the rope I was using was too fat as I decided to double up the vinyl on the perimeter. It just worked, definitely not better nor worse. Certainly stays put.

Just get the hammer-type spur grommet tool/dies and then just buy the grommets you need. That way you can by the widely available Stimpson spur grommets. Grommets and dies tend to be brand specific/compatible. Certainly so for the presses. I ended up picking up a hole punch set from hardware store for like making gaskets or something. Cheap and works well enough. The press punches the holes and sets the grommets in one step-nice...

Share pics; I love doing these projects, though I'm way behind...

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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Unless I wind up getting outrageous quotes for this tramp, I'm not going to roll my own - I don't have the sewing machine, nor the place to put it (at present). Of course, if the quotes begin to approach the cost of a capable machine, I'll reconsider.

I'm wondering about your use of slugs rather than a bolt rope, though. I don't think I'd have a problem wtih them in both the fore and aft crosstube slots, but not the hull tracks if they're going to leave any kind of gap that a finger or a toe can go awry in. If you use them there, how far apart do you space them?

Slugs are just an idea - not tried yet. I've seen them somewhere else on a higher end cat, but can't recall where. The point of the matter is to have something that'll stay in that Keder rail, unlike the bolt ropes that tend to come out at the ends eventually. But, you have hit on a problem; the gaps around the perimeter. I'd have to sew on a vinyl flap to keep stuff from washing through, including toes. Not ideal. You know, Hobie and others have played this game quite a while, perhaps that simplicity says something (compromises everywhere to get to the best, most economical solution).

As for spacing, it appears that every 4-6 inches is the right placement for grommets, so I'd presume the same for slugs or any other tensioned reinforcement in mesh. Now that I think about it - that's a lot of slugs...

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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On second consideration, Hobie used the sail slugs already on the 21 SC, apparently?

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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I'm casting about for quotes for this tramp: The local tent+awning guys I mentioned previously; another local shop that builds actual bouncy-bouncy trampolines and has a passing familiarity with cats; Slo Sails.

Can anyone comment candidly on whether Slo gets their name from the speed of response when you're trying to get a quote out of them?

jonathan162

Unless I wind up getting outrageous quotes for this tramp, I'm not going to roll my own - I don't have the sewing machine, nor the place to put it (at present). Of course, if the quotes begin to approach the cost of a capable machine, I'll reconsider.

I'm wondering about your use of slugs rather than a bolt rope, though. I don't think I'd have a problem wtih them in both the fore and aft crosstube slots, but not the hull tracks if they're going to leave any kind of gap that a finger or a toe can go awry in. If you use them there, how far apart do you space them?

Slugs are ok.. but, make sure the track will accept the slugs (there are different size tracks). Labor wise, a bolt rope is much easier and cheaper. It takes a bit of time to sew the webbing for each slug. I will use bolt rope on the front and starboard side with slugs on the port side. On the Prindle, I can use the standard sail slug, but on the Tornado, I had a material strip with a small bolt rope and it was laced to that. I got rid of the strip and made short dyneema loops that I use for lacing the tramp. Slugs will typically be spaced 6-8" apart. The gap makes a good hand hold especially in choppy conditions.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Just a followup FYI.

My local tent+awning shop came back with an insanely low quote: A hundred bucks per hour (plus materials), and they think they can build this in two hours. I can't make a salad in two hours, so I'm deeply skeptical about that and haven't been taking them too seriously. (Btw, we're talking canuck bucks here.)

The local real-trampolines shop has the material and actually a little familiarity with the subject matter - they know my boat shop and the guy who does sail work around here (and who gave me estimates so insane that they can only indicate he really doesn't want to do it - or wants out of the business entirely. If people feel like that they should just say so.). They quoted me $800, which is a little steep - particularly when the boat was two hundred something and I'm repurposing an old junk trailer.

But I continue to be frustrated by Slo. Despite my supplying all the requested information (photos, track dims, etc.), they've simply ignored me after my initial conversation with Kat - a phone call that happened because they wouldn't respond to email. Since then, no replies of any kind, despite my periodic prompting. Their "busy season"? Maybe so, but if that's your attitude toward customer service i.e. we're too busy to even be courteous to prospective customers, you can quite quickly find that your next busy season isn't, because everyone's learned you behave like assholes and aren't wasting any time on you. I'd sure like to hear if anyone has anything good to say about them, because I sure don't.

As it turns out, my local thrift shop just had a few big chunks of what looks like suitable mesh (from some big powerboat trailering rock-bra) turn up, and I snagged the lot for a sawbuck, and I think I can get two 3'x8' tramp sections out of it. So, since I won't have anything invested in the material (as I would with a few yards of new mesh from Sailrite), I figure what the hell, I think I'm going to give the tent+awning guys a go. I know them, they've been around a long time, and have always been good about little jobs like tramp mods and replacing jib luff zippers. Maybe I actually get away with it for a couple of hundred.

I'm all into supporting local business. Making a catamaran tramp doesn't seem like very high-tech, but I'm still using my last SLO trampoline. I'm a little concerned we will lose the few vendors that still support our ancient boats.

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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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Fair enough - there are fewer all the time. I just found (on ebay) the diaper I wanted to buy from Murrays years ago - had they kept making them. But the guy sewing their harnesses retired and they didn't bother to replace him. The downward trend continues.

I can't imagine that Slo doesn't understand this, making it very difficult to understand why they'd want to turn away business and alienate customers. Or maybe they do, and their plan is to just not give a shit and slowly run it down.