Righting Question

Here's a question regarding an instruction I just found in the Prindle 18-2/19 Owner's Manual regarding how to get your bows pointed into the wind if you're capsized. I'd like to know if anyone has any comment. (Btw, I think this is relevant to all cats, not just P18/19s.)

Page 30 has a short section on righting a capsized boat that says:

"If the mast is pointed into the wind, the boat may flip over in the other direction as you try to right it. To swing the bows around into the wind, walk back towards the transom slowly until bows are positioned properly."

Notice it doesn't say stand on the bow. It says walk back to the transom and wait for the bows to swing around into the wind. I never noticed this before and don't get why this would cause the bows to swing into the wind.

I always understood that if the bows are not pointing into the wind, you should stand on the bow, not the stern, and presumably that would sink the bow somewhat, causing the lightened aft end of the boat to drift downwind so the bows end up pointed into the wind. But this owners' manual says the opposite, so maybe I'm missing something??

The back story is that a couple of years ago I capsized my boat (P18-2) while solo-sailing and initially couldn't get it righted because (to the best of my recollection) the mast was pointed towards the wind. I tried pulling the mast up, but couldn't do it because the wind kept blowing the mainsail down. So I stood on the bow and waited. Long story short, my weight there (I weigh around 185 and definitely more with gear on) did exactly DIDLY SQUAT to bring the bows into the wind, even though I stood there for a good while, and even though there was a decent breeze blowing (not strong admittedly, but a reasonable breeze). The P18-2 has a large amount of volume in the bows, and my weight there seemed to do nothing to appreciably sink it or bring the bows around. (Important aside: is the proper spelling didly squat, diddly squat, didley squat, didely squat, dideley squat, didelly squat, didelley squat, diddelley squat, or??? Inquiring minds want to know, maybe we can take a poll. Kindly leave your vote in the comments - btw, this could be more important than righting a boat.)

I ended up getting out of that situation through the help of a good samaritan motor-boater (before I drifted further towards a jetty). But the point is, I just noticed the above statement in the Owners' Manual and I don't get why standing by the stern would cause the bows to swing into the wind. Does anyone think this makes sense or have any comment?

Thanks.

Edit: Not sure how i managed to get this posted in the "Tampa Bay Waters" sub-forum of all places (not that that's a bad place!), but maybe Damon/mod/forum-owner can get it into the "General Sailing" forum(?).



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 25, 2023 - 05:53 PM.

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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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"Diddly Squat" gets my vote. icon_cool
I agree that walking back towards the stern seems counter-intuitive and would tend to drive your bows downwind instead. I haven't successfully righted my H16 on my own yet (motor boater assist the one time I turtled). So, admittedly, I don't have first-hand experience but the theory seems sound that the bows become the pivot point and should come around to pointing upwind with weight on them.

--
Tim Gibson
1982 Hobie 16 Carumba Sails
1980 Hobie 14 Cat Fever Sails (SOLD)
Memphis, TN
--
I know after capsizing a Hobie Wave, I stood on the bow and would even lean a bit forward rather than straight out. I have always been able to right the boat pretty easily.

On my Tiapan, my 150# weight didn't seem to affect the disposition of the boat at all when capsized.

I haven't capsized my Topcat yet... It's bigger than the Wave but smaller than the Taipan... Time will tell.
Okay, thanks for the initial replies. Glad to hear I'm not the only one perplexed by this one, or the only one who found that his weight placed on a particular part of a certain boat didn't appear to do DICKIE'S DONK for the cause. (Or is it dicky's donk?, or dickey donk? - damn, could be time for another poll....)

PS, looks like "diddly squat" has come out of the gate strong and taken the early lead, thanks to dirtybanana.



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 25, 2023 - 06:41 PM.

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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
Those instructions in the 18-2 manual were copied from the 16/18 manual and do not apply to your Two, really.
When you capsize from a strong gust the mast is rarely pointed toward the wind, because it's the wind that blew you over.
If you pitchpole from a control issue, i.e. steering, weight distribution, wave riding, etc., then your mast could end up pointed anywhere, even turtle.
The first thing to do is release the mainsheet and jib sheet, then lift the mast just out of the water. The loose sails will hang down, the wind will catch in them from either direction and push the mast around. Moving your bodies while holding the righting line will help a little but you want to be centered around the front crossbar area.
I brought this up early on but it was never changed.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--
I had never bought into the idea of getting the bows into the wind. It took too long to do that. We would go out in 20+ knot winds and see how far we can drive the bows into the mud (lake is only 4-6' deep). We had a lot of capsize practice. We always had the mast to wind to keep it out of the mud. When the boat started to right, we would walk forward slightly and stand up on the leeward hull as the boat came upright. This was 30 years ago and we were much more nimble than now. But, as mentioned by Bob above, make sure all sheets and traveler are completely loose. Keeping traveler loose also is the key to keeping it from flopping over on ya. If you cannot stay on the hull while it rights, hang on to the low hull as it rights. The boat will have a very hard time going back over with one or two people on the low hull (especially if everything is loose). If you choose to rotate the bows towards the wind, putting weight on the bows will left the sterns and allow the boat to settle. The wind and waves will determine how successful this will be. I've seen people fight with this for 30 minutes instead of just righting the boat. This is one reason we are hosting a capsize clinic.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--
klozhaldThose instructions in the 18-2 manual were copied from the 16/18 manual and do not apply to your Two, really.
* * *
I brought this up early on but it was never changed.


Interesting. Sounds like maybe you worked for the company back when this manual was created and you suggested this instruction be removed?

Anyway, I'm not trying to make a big deal about the manual - just trying to see if there's a reason someone would "walk towards the transom until the bows are positioned [into the wind]," and so far, nobody seems to see one, no matter what size catamaran.

Thanks for the other comments about righting. I think I had an occasion (maybe it was the one mentioned above) where I capsized and ended up with my bows pointed away from the wind, which meant my mast (lying down in the water) was basically perpendicular to the direction of the wind. The back end of the sail (leech), although down in the water, was pointed towards the wind. In that orientation, as I started pulling the mast up, the mainsail obviously started coming with it, and the wind began hitting the mainsail and flowing across it in a backwards direction to the normal flow. That really effectively just drove the mainsail and mast back down into the water. Since the leech of the sail was still trailing down in the water, the further the mast/mainsail came out of the water, the more main surface area was exposed to the wind, and the stronger the wind force was driving them back down, sort of pinning them there. There was no way to get the boat righted in that orientation.

Which is how I got on this topic of how to get the bows reoriented. If anybody has any suggestions for getting your boat reoriented from that position, I'd be interested to hear them.



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 26, 2023 - 02:27 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
catfan57Sounds like maybe you worked for the company back when this manual was created and you suggested this instruction be removed?

I was Commodore of the local Prindle Fleet and bought an 18-2 early on. Got to know a few names in the company is all. Good people, they just weren't interested in reprinting the manual.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--
QuoteSo I stood on the bow and waited. Long story short, my weight there (I weigh around 185 and definitely more with gear on) did exactly DIDLY SQUAT to bring the bows into the wind

Been there before. I dropped my legs in the water to use my body as a drogue and the cat's attitude was unaffected. I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!
However, now I have wings...and the boat will not act as it once did. More likely the slowed drift will cause the mast and skipping sail to sink to the muddy depths. Alas.

--
FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer"
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
--
Bow standing worked well for me on my mystere - can't recall on my hobie18 but i think it worked for me then too

Quote I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!

Very good idea

For me the failproof answer was to carry an anchor and deploy it first chance possible after a capsize. it will 100% get your bows into the wind every time (unless the wind is so strong that you are moving so fast your anchor is floating or dragging - that is very rare and a chain on the anchor line will eliminate almost all chances of that
texastumaBut, as mentioned by Bob above, make sure all sheets and traveler are completely loose. Keeping traveler loose also is the key to keeping it from flopping over on ya.


Good point re the traveler(!) - I usually just think about loosening the main and jib sheets. Will remember the traveler next time as well.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
And make sure the tiller extension is out of the way. I can't count the number of times I had the mainsheet and traveller loose but the extension interfered with them letting out.
MN3
Quote I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!

Very good idea

For me the failproof answer was to carry an anchor and deploy it first chance possible after a capsize. it will 100% get your bows into the wind every time (unless the wind is so strong that you are moving so fast your anchor is floating or dragging - that is very rare and a chain on the anchor line will eliminate almost all chances of that


YES, THIS!!! This is what I think I want at this point. An almost fail-proof way to stop drifting and get the bows into the wind every time, with an anchor. No more drifting helplessly towards jetties, piers, or some other potential disaster while your boat is spun the wrong way and won't come up. Plus I'm thinking even if the anchor is dragging, in most cases that should still be great to slow you down and get the bows pointed into the wind/current, right?

I was just in West Marine last week looking over the anchor choices and trying to assess what would be the smallest and easiest stowable/deployable anchor for the job. Do you have any suggestions on what you found was best for this, MN3? Including what diameter/length line you were using? And how you were stowing them for good neat storage but also easy deployment when capsized??

I'm thinking of getting one of these "folding grapnel" anchors, since they are light and fold down to a slim size, but the arms unfold to catch or drag on the bottom. Shown here https://www.westmarine.co…rs-P005_153_003_004.html

I'm thinking maybe a 5 pounder would be enough?, since I'm only trying to slow down or stop a light catamaran and most of the bay where I sail is 20' deep or less (although a few places to 65')??

PS: On top of that, I think I'm gonna make a righting pole to get some super leverage for righting while single-handed. This looks like the best one I've come across: https://www.youtube.com/w…TRS5pTZGV4&feature=g-upl



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 12:42 PM.

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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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I know MN3 sails with an anchor but I hesitate because of the added weight and potential boat damage. Drogues are cheap, foldable, and stow in a tramp pocket. You only need 6ft of line and works in any depth of water. I made a 30" one out of an old 420 mainsail.
https://www.amazon.com/An…shing/dp/B09BD8KYP4?th=1

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FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer"
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
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rch701I know MN3 sails with an anchor but I hesitate because of the added weight and potential boat damage. Drogues are cheap, foldable, and stow in a tramp pocket. You only need 6ft of line and works in any depth of water. I made a 30" one out of an old 420 mainsail.
https://www.amazon.com/An…shing/dp/B09BD8KYP4?th=1


I'm glad you brought this to my attention and I like those advantages you listed: light, easy to stow, work in any depth, only need 6ft of line (in comparison to a lot longer line for anchor). I am worried with anchors about the weight, possibility for damage, storage question, etc., especially because I tend to push it and get capsizes where stuff gets thrown around.

Thanks for the link to that Amazon one, looks like a cheap and easy way to test one out. Maybe I'll go for this first and see how it works for me. How to you hook it to the front of your boat? [Edit: Nevermind, you said you clip it to your bridle.]



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 05:29 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
danielt1263And make sure the tiller extension is out of the way. I can't count the number of times I had the mainsheet and traveller loose but the extension interfered with them letting out.


Okay, another good point, I'll keep that one in mind now too, thanks.



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 01:29 PM.

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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
If you're sailing an 18ft cat and unless you're a very heavy person, odds are you won't right it alone without a water bag or one of those poles that folds under the tramp. At 150, I can't right a 16 by myself and in all my years of sailing, I've never capsized by myself. Of course, I'm more conservative when alone, and I always carry a righting line. But I know my time's coming and hopefully someone will help like I have helped several times. I've capsized plenty of times when double handed, and righting has always been easy even on a 20-footer. If I remember correctly, the boat always seemed to swing around on its own, the sail acting as a drogue pointing towards the wind as it lays in the water. About anchors, I sometimes use one as a temporary mooring with a bleach bottle to mark where it is. The beach where I launch is rocky and there's no way my hulls are going on the beach. It's a four-pound anchor with no chain and I have to reach down and push the flukes in. Once it's in nothings pulling it out, it'll break first. But sometimes I take it with me and yes, storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step. What I also did was cut an inch off of each end of the stock to make it fit in the bag easier. Now that makes it a little harder for it to set on its own, but it was worth it. I've never had a flailing jib sheet catch on it. Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs but they should never be that loaded anyway on anchor and shouldn't be a problem. And one other thing, if you use too much rode, your boat will sail around on anchor more.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
QuoteIf I remember correctly, the boat always seemed to swing around on its own, the sail acting as a drogue pointing towards the wind as it lays in the water.

not sure i agree - lots of boats will just sail away with the tramp as the sail -

Quote Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs

just drill a few holes in your bow tips - refill with some epoxy and then redrill a little smaller - now you have holes for your bridal that wont seep water into your bows/glass

QuoteAnd one other thing, if you use too much rode, your boat will sail around on anchor more.

not ben my experience with a bridal. more wind and waves require more rode



Edited by MN3 on Apr 27, 2023 - 07:30 PM.
QuoteDo you have any suggestions on what you found was best for this, MN3?

FORTRESS MODE FX-7. only 4lbs - will hold A LOT of boat

https://fortressanchors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/fortress-anchor-shadow-wp-1.jpg

https://fortressanchors.c…chors/#fortressselection

Quote Plus I'm thinking even if the anchor is dragging, in most cases that should still be great to slow you down and get the bows pointed into the wind/current, right?

Didn't slow down my cat when my anchor line was tripped by another cat on anchor that flipped (we had a front come through overnight while island camping). We had to use a power boat and go dead-down-wind where my boat was moving pretty quickly in reverse

QuoteI'm thinking of getting one of these "folding grapnel" anchors, since they are light and fold down to a slim size, but the arms unfold to catch or drag on the bottom. Shown here https://www.westmarine.co…rs-P005_153_003_004.html

I have not had great success in our grassy/sandy/mucky bottoms with those. I was also told they can pop out of the water with enough (wind) force but never saw anything remotely like it ... but who knows

QuoteAnd how you were stowing them for good neat storage but also easy deployment when capsized??

Bill has it correct "storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step." - I used to have a small duffle type bag tied to the front beam/hiking strap area on my hobies. All my mystere fleet guys woud just stuff their steel walmart danforth anchors into the front tramp pocket - this isn't ideal in my world as it would rip up the pocket eventually and is why a bag is better in my mind
They also make a Magnesium/alum one Fortress Guardian G-7 2.9lb Anchor. They break down pretty easy too but more things to go wrong.

--
Lee Lake George FL
Hobie 16 -Boomer Sails
Matrix 5.5
--
18-2 was the first beach cat that I owned myself. Five or six boats and 23+ years later I have an N20C and just a little more experience than I did back then.

The idea of moving your weight forward is to let the wind pivot the boat because of increased drag on the bows, less on the stern. 18-2 should be easy to right and pivot. If you can't get it to spin, sit on the hull and put your legs in the water. In light air, not necessary, but in anything over 5, you'll need to get the boat to rotate. Remember to have your crew move forward as well, doesn't matter if you're up front, if they're in the back.

In 8-10+, once you get the bows into the wind, the boat will almost right itself.

I can tell you the the 20C is significantly harder to get to rotate. I've not flipped it myself, but every friend that I've let drive has.... more than once, lol. The bows are huge and very rounded, sitting with legs in the water is a must to get it upright.

I wouldn't carry an anchor, too much chance to punch a hole in a hull or get stuff really tangled up IMO.
QuoteI wouldn't carry an anchor, too much chance to punch a hole in a hull or get stuff really tangled up IMO

Almost every cat in our group (7 or 8 mysteres, a few g-cats, a few supercats, a prindle or 2) all carried anchors for my 10 years of saiing with that crew, I never saw a hull get damaged.

now it does require being secured well with a bungee or strap and the anchor line needs to be managed well or it will fall in the drink, and pay out if you are not careful. what a drag!

back on sept 12th 2001 our buddies (Zack and Mikey) learned a big lesson. While the entire USA and 1/2 the world was in shock over the horrors of the day before, they went out sailing. they were the only people out. No sailboats, no power boats, and i think the CoastGaurd /FWWC were mostly on high alert and not doing regular patrols. they sailed all day. Around dusk as they came back into hurricane pass (a mile from the beach) they both came in-board and watched the mast fall over. something had came loose on the stay aloft and they didn't realize they (being double trapped out) were keeping the mast up. No paddles, no water, no cellphones nor radios, no sunscreen, no anchor (but they had beer). We get strong tides in the pass and the tide sucked them back out into the gulf. they spent a cold night wrapped up in a jibs and main. (Possibly) The only reason they made it back was a shrimp boat was coming in early to miss a storm/baby hurricane, spotted them and towed them home.

I was in a local sailing shop the next day (possibly a few days later) when Zack came in and told me the story. After that day i made sure i always had the things he didn't. Water, sunscreen, paddle, and anchor. Only time any of us sailed without an anchor was during a race when there were chase boats and every ounce of extra weight was definatly the reason you didn't win the race.... - ymmv
shortyfoxAbout anchors, I sometimes use one as a temporary mooring with a bleach bottle to mark where it is. The beach where I launch is rocky and there's no way my hulls are going on the beach. It's a four-pound anchor with no chain and I have to reach down and push the flukes in. Once it's in nothings pulling it out, it'll break first. But sometimes I take it with me and yes, storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step. What I also did was cut an inch off of each end of the stock to make it fit in the bag easier. Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs but they should never be that loaded anyway on anchor and shouldn't be a problem.


Okay thanks, that's another vote (along with MN3) for a 4-pound anchor being sufficient, and the kind with flukes (and zhopper points out the 2.9lb Fortress). Think I'll probably go for a cheapo of same fluke design, but these are the kind of opinions/info I enjoy getting on here. Don't want to carry any more than minimum effective size/weight. My spot right behind the mast is already taken up with my tramp pocket, filled to bulging with righting line, so I'd have to attach the bag with anchor in it more to the side.

Still, thinking maybe I'll test out a drogue 1st. But have been in situations where having an anchor would've been really valuable even with no capsize involved. Like the time got becalmed and the current/tide was pulling us out the harbor mouth towards a fishing fleet and even worse the big commercial shipping lanes with the massive container ships, tankers, etc. That was one sh*t feeling sitting there basically helpless. Don't feel like repeating it.



Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 29, 2023 - 12:05 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
QuoteHave been in situations where having an anchor would've been really valuable though even with no capsize involved. Like the time got becalmed and the current/tide was pulling us out the harbor mouth towards a fishing fleet and even worse the big commercial shipping lanes with the massive container ships, tankers, etc. That was one sh*t feeling sitting there basically helpless. Don't feel like repeating it.

Yes. I can recount a couple of similar situations, one of which involved a de-masting that involved getting blown into an oyster encrusted seawall. I won't go into the gory details. One thing that is very problematic with small cats is how do you bow anchor unless you are in very shallow water, like to set up the boat for instance, or like MN3 suggest, to turn the bows into the wind to facilitate easier righting. In the latter case, presumably the rode is tied to the mast step and since you're in the water it's no big deal to move the rode to the bow and put it through a carabiner or similar device but always leave the bitter end tied otherwise you could find out what "bitter end" really means! But assuming you just want to anchor for whatever other reason, and it's too deep to get off the boat? The only thing I can see is having the anchor stowed right behind the mast step as mentioned before, and having the rode go through a bullet block at one of the bows and then back to the mast step where it's tied off. Of course, this will be too much clutter for most of us. A few cats have front tramps, like Hobie Getaway, Hobie 21SC and G-Cats. With them, no problem. Most of the time however, I choose to sail my G-Cat without the front tramp so I would be curious to know if there's any other way. There are certainly pros and cons about front tramps but that's a whole other thread. One more thing, the stock on a danforth style anchor has pretty rough ends that could damage your tramp. You can round them off on a grinder and it won't compromise the performance of the anchor.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
Quote and having the rode go through a bullet block at one of the bows and then back to the mast step where it's tied off

I do something like that: a separate line goes from the mast step, through the center of the bowfoil, and back to the mast step. Both ends end in a carabiner at the mast step, so i can remove either of them: the lower one for the anchor line or the upper one for towing the boat (that part of the line goes in front and above the bowfoil dolphin striker). At the bow foil there is a knot, the line doesn’t run through. The anchor line is tied at the mast step too, but has a second carabiner at the right position to attach the end of the line described. (Hope my English is good enough…) I through the anchor first and then deal with the carabiners. Its a bit more complicated than I’d wish but if I get confused I may also use the line as a guide for the anchor carabiner, and manually push it forward part of the way.
The double function is what makes it complex, but setting a line for towing is actually the hardest to achieve in my case, with the bow foil. So judge with that in mind..
CATAMARAN ANCHOR OR DROGUE LINE RIGGING/STOWAGE, WITH OR WITHOUT A BRIDLE, TO BE CARRIED ONBOARD WHILE SAILING

Sorry, I had to be away from this thread for a couple days, but I made the above mini-heading because I'm glad to see this discussion came around to how to rig/run/stow lines for use with an anchor or drogue, possibly with or without a bridle, cuz that's what I've been thinking about. Was thinking maybe I should have made this the start of a new thread, but posted the mini-heading instead.

rch701I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.


I'm wondering what kind of bridle arrangement you use and how you store it to be used when you want to deploy and clip your drogue line to the bridle. I mean, I understand the idea of a bridle consisting of two lines of equal length, each attached to a bow tang on the right and left and meeting in the middle. But are you leaving this arrangement in place connected to the bow tangs while you're sailing? And if so, how are you keeping it out of the way and not dragging, etc.? Or maybe you're keeping your bridle in your drogue bag along with the drogue and deploying them both at the same time?

MN3, were you using some type of bridle arrangement for your onboard anchor, or just paying it out from a single attachment point someplace, like at/near the base of the mast where your anchor was stored? It sounds like whatever arrangement you had always worked for you anytime you capsized or otherwise needed it.

shortyfoxBut assuming you just want to anchor for whatever other reason, and it's too deep to get off the boat? The only thing I can see is having the anchor stowed right behind the mast step as mentioned before, and having the rode go through a bullet block at one of the bows and then back to the mast step where it's tied off. Of course, this will be too much clutter for most of us.


Sounds like maybe you're not using a bridle with the anchor(?? not sure). I'm not really following Andinista's description because I don't know what a bow foil is.

Btw MN3, I posted my post about wishing I had an anchor when I was getting involuntarily sucked out of the harbor to the ocean before even seeing your incredible story about the friends who got dismasted, sucked out to the gulf and forced to spend a cold night wrapped in sails with no coast guard active the day after 9/11. Wow, what a story! That's the kind of experience I was having visions of while taking my "free ride" out to the ocean (add in possibly getting run over in the day or night by a commercial vessel - although I would've been able to call the coast guard, not that I want to rely on that as an out). Excellent safety point too:

MN3After that day i made sure i always had the things he didn't. Water, sunscreen, paddle, and anchor.

However, I have to point out you omitted beer. icon_smile



Edited by CatFan57 on May 01, 2023 - 06:08 PM.

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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
QuoteMN3, were you using some type of bridle arrangement for your onboard anchor, or just paying it out from a single attachment point someplace, like at/near the base of the mast where your anchor was stored? It sounds like whatever arrangement you had always worked for you anytime you capsized or otherwise needed it.


A single attachment point will cause your boat to dance around and very likely to try to sail away and risk your anchor to fail (unseat itself from the seafloor). You need a bridal setup on a catamaran. We would drill holes in our bows, refill the holes with epoxy and redrill a little smaller so no water can creep in and compromise anything.
https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134049&g2_serialNumber=3

QuoteHowever, I have to point out you omitted beer.

Beer takes up a lot of room in a cooler, requires lots of ice, adds a bunch of weight, makes you piss a lot and personally gives me headaches. RUM on the other hand requires a lot less ice, weight, room, you pee less often and did not give me headaches unless .... well you know .... plus pirates drink rum, not beer and thanks to Johnny Depp - chicks dig pirates (see image below for proof) - ymmv
https://fandomwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Giselle-and-Scarlett.jpg



Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:49 PM.
I had 2 different types of front tramps (used on both my mysteres) that held my anchor (after simply using a small duffle bag attached to the beam/hiking strap for years)
both of my front tramps used a pole to avoid drooping and to work optimally - top pic is actually a CF windsurfer mast top section.

Homemade mesh front tramp - anchor, rightingbag and drybag would fit on there perfectly - no windage
https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=131915&g2_serialNumber=3&g2_GALLERYSID=77b77cc39a580ac788208d6af6847796
you can see the anchor line is actually running from the bows back to the front beam. I had a plastic snap shackle that would capture a loop in anchor line to have it handy and easy to deploy (mostly to prevent it from dragging and paying out while underway)

custom made front tramp (from Sunrise yacht co.) with pockets above (for anchor) and below (for righting bag). In this image you can just see the tramp with the anchor sticking out it's pocket. My spin pole tip is utilizing the holes in the bow - anchor is attached to the bow tangs - not optimal but I did that for many years, only had to replace 2 of the bow tangs (aka both) over the years (one was pre spin pole) both times there was a good deal of corrosion and i doubt the anchor line (and associated tugging in wind/waves) were to blame, but still not optimal
https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=129139&g2_serialNumber=4



Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:47 PM.
Here's a great YouTube video about the subject: https://youtu.be/K7h5X-tanfI
danielt1263Here's a great YouTube video about the subject: https://youtu.be/K7h5X-tanfI
I am not a fan...

This guy said:
"grappnle anchor"? -
double the depth for anchor rode - pass on that advice
"I don't know if i have ever anchored a catamaran" - this i believe

adding a line to the bridal / forestay will load up many points of your rig, ( bow bridals, mast tang and side-stays tangs and every fitting in-between as well. and since a H16 relies on the jib halyard for tension when the jib is up ... you are working (stretching)your jib as well with every wave, - I would pass on that location to reeve your anchor line - ymmv

"Scope is the ratio of the length of deployed anchor rode to the height of the bow chock above the seabed. The greater the scope the more horizontal the pull on the anchor, and the better it will hold. Pegging 10:1 as the maximum practical scope, the table shows the average relative holding power associated with shorter scope."

https://www.boatus.com/-/media/expert-advice-archive/2012/july/ground-tackle-selecting-anchors-and-rodes/scope.ashx?la=en&hash=5A52C24E0887A80042819B3FF4A3FE4C
https://www.boatus.com/ex…3%2F8%22%20nylon%20rope.
I thought I was done with this one but then I saw the video and I just can't leave it be. What ever happened to simple is better? When I saw the video my first thought was if you follow that guy's advice, you're to see your boat where you don't want it. Way out there! Once you're sure the anchor is dug in you could shorten the scope up a little for convenance, but 2 to 1? Let's get realistic. Most all the time, if you feel a need to carry an anchor for emergencies, when you need it, your boat's going to be laying on its side. You'll be in the water or on the hull and you'll have to get the rode through a clip attached at the bow. Forget the bridle, it's a moot point in this circumstance. And nine times out of ten you won't have to bother anyway, only if you're drifting to somewhere you don't want to be before you get the boat righted. Two experienced adults should be able to right the boat quickly. Using an anchor for a mooring in shallow water while you set the boat up is no big deal. If you're out there and want to stop for a while, say to put your harness on, all you have to do is backwind the jib, let your main out all the way and fix your rudders hard alee and your boat will just sit there. One more thing, if you do anchor, always use three strand nylon as small as diameter you're comfortable with. The stretchiness will absorb shock and help prevent the anchor from breaking loose.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
QuoteOne more thing, if you do anchor, always use three strand nylon as small as diameter you're comfortable with. The stretchiness will absorb shock and help prevent the anchor from breaking loose.

100%

BTW: we island hop all day every day. Also barrier island hop (look up 3 Rooker and Anclote Key). It is critical to have an anchor in these locations because 1. there may be 10000 boats and no room to pull up on a beach, or on an island it may be rocky beaches or the only way to get in the lea is with an anchor
shortyfoxI thought I was done with this one but then I saw the video and I just can't leave it be. What ever happened to simple is better? When I saw the video my first thought was if you follow that guy's advice, you're to see your boat where you don't want it. Way out there! Once you're sure the anchor is dug in you could shorten the scope up a little for convenance, but 2 to 1? Let's get realistic. Most all the time, if you feel a need to carry an anchor for emergencies, when you need it, your boat's going to be laying on its side. You'll be in the water or on the hull and you'll have to get the rode through a clip attached at the bow. Forget the bridle, it's a moot point in this circumstance. And nine times out of ten you won't have to bother anyway, only if you're drifting to somewhere you don't want to be before you get the boat righted. Two experienced adults should be able to right the boat quickly. Using an anchor for a mooring in shallow water while you set the boat up is no big deal. If you're out there and want to stop for a while, say to put your harness on, all you have to do is backwind the jib, let your main out all the way and fix your rudders hard alee and your boat will just sit there. One more thing, if you do anchor, always use three strand nylon as small as diameter you're comfortable with. The stretchiness will absorb shock and help prevent the anchor from breaking loose.


I sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), because I will use it very occasionally, hopefully never. I’m sure that it takes more beating with regular sailing, but yes, if I used it often I’d probably do it differently. I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. But also I don’t intend that it catches me too close to the surf, so I don’t approach to it. My concern is not so much capsizing but dismasting, rudder failure or something like that. Also being unable to right the boat fast enough. But if the distance is safe, the first attempt to right will probably be before throwing the anchor. Righting with two people on board is easy, I agree, but one of them might be left behind, that happens. I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt. I also carry a cell pone on my pdf and other safety measures and routine checks. What concerns me the most is whether the anchor will really hold the boat far enough from the surf.. it worked where i tested it but who knows. Other that that I should stay home, anyway.



Edited by Andinista on May 03, 2023 - 08:23 AM.
Also, the one left behind might be me.. I teach my crew to through the anchor but I don’t expect him/her to right the boat and rescue me.



Edited by Andinista on May 03, 2023 - 05:07 PM.
MN3A single attachment point will cause your boat to dance around and very likely to try to sail away and risk your anchor to fail (unseat itself from the seafloor). You need a bridal setup on a catamaran. We would drill holes in our bows, refill the holes with epoxy and redrill a little smaller so no water can creep in and compromise anything.
https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134049&g2_serialNumber=3


Thanks, I can see why drilling attachment holes in the bows would get your bridle attachment points as far out front as possible to cause the boat to behave well on anchor, plus keep the bow tangs from doing double duty and absorbing stresses related to the anchor. I appreciate the photo detail [referring to the next photo after this, actually] and see what I believe are your bridle lines running from the tramp forward towards the attachment points on the bows. It looks like you keep them in that position while sailing, and I assume you do not have any problems with the jib sheets catching on them? I would've thought that could be a problem.



Edited by CatFan57 on May 03, 2023 - 06:06 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
MN3Beer takes up a lot of room in a cooler, requires lots of ice, adds a bunch of weight, makes you piss a lot and personally gives me headaches. RUM on the other hand requires a lot less ice, weight, room, you pee less often and did not give me headaches unless .... well you know .... plus pirates drink rum, not beer and thanks to Johnny Depp - chicks dig pirates (see image below for proof) - ymmv
https://fandomwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Giselle-and-Scarlett.jpgEdited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:49 PM.


So now i have a better idea why pirates drank rum. You actually caused me to look that up and that was a whole interesting story in itself - made from fermented molasses, which was a product of the sugar plantations in Brazil and the Caribbean, and easier for ships to carry than wine or beer. Didn't know that.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
MN3I had 2 different types of front tramps (used on both my mysteres) that held my anchor (after simply using a small duffle bag attached to the beam/hiking strap for years)
both of my front tramps used a pole to avoid drooping and to work optimally - top pic is actually a CF windsurfer mast top section.

Homemade mesh front tramp - anchor, rightingbag and drybag would fit on there perfectly - no windage
https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=131915&g2_serialNumber=3&g2_GALLERYSID=77b77cc39a580ac788208d6af6847796
you can see the anchor line is actually running from the bows back to the front beam. I had a plastic snap shackle that would capture a loop in anchor line to have it handy and easy to deploy (mostly to prevent it from dragging and paying out while underway)

custom made front tramp (from Sunrise yacht co.) with pockets above (for anchor) and below (for righting bag). In this image you can just see the tramp with the anchor sticking out it's pocket. My spin pole tip is utilizing the holes in the bow - anchor is attached to the bow tangs - not optimal but I did that for many years, only had to replace 2 of the bow tangs (aka both) over the years (one was pre spin pole) both times there was a good deal of corrosion and i doubt the anchor line (and associated tugging in wind/waves) were to blame, but still not optimal
https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=129139&g2_serialNumber=4Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:47 PM.


Excellent details shown in the pictures, thanks for sharing these. Even though your anchor lines in the second photo are attached to the bow tangs rather than the holes at the bow tips, it looks like they are way down low and presumably well out of way of any loose or flopping jib sheets that potentially get away from you temporarily (in answer to my question above).

I really admire how you fitted out your boat for serious and fun cruising and exploration of the islands, bays and gulf you sail in. That looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.



Edited by CatFan57 on May 03, 2023 - 06:22 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
shortyfoxMost all the time, if you feel a need to carry an anchor for emergencies, when you need it, your boat's going to be laying on its side. You'll be in the water or on the hull and you'll have to get the rode through a clip attached at the bow. Forget the bridle, it's a moot point in this circumstance.


I can see why when you're lying on your side and want to deploy an anchor you've got some issues to deal with aside from having a nice bridle setup in place. In fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed. I'm guessing that's probably why MN3 has his anchor in a bag on the underside of the tramp to give easier access when capsized and standing on a hull.



Edited by CatFan57 on May 03, 2023 - 06:41 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
AndinistaI sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), ....
I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. ... I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt.


Thanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is. Agreed that ideally you have everything pre-set and easily accessible. I'm sailing solo mostly, which obviously can present a righting problem with an 18' boat, so that's why I got this thread going. Since you sail regularly in the ocean and often by yourself, you obviously must have a lot of experience getting/being prepared. And getting carried into the surf doesn't sound too appealing - although potentially getting carried out to sea when dismasted or with broken rudders sounds worse.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
QuoteIn fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed.

that bag was very easy to use. All i did was secure 1 of the 2 straps to the beam/hiking strap (If i recall i used the shackle that the hiking strap was attached to). not zipped shut. anchor was probably just tied to the mast base back then and i had no idea originally to use it in a capsize.

all the anchor line was either in the bag, or probably in the tramp pocket (this was back in the late 90's). it was easy to get to at anytime while the mast was pointing up. easy if i capsized on the side the bag was on and a bit of a stretch (while standing on the hull) post flip if on the dry side.

If i were you .... I would just find some cheap bag with loops (handles), maybe steal one of your wifes/daughters LV or other bag and try it. as per the 4lbs anchor - the alum anchor i showed was 4lbs - it is alum and light, a cheapo walmart steel one will be double the weight but work just as well (for 1/10th the cost)

the bag i used was a cheap carry on flight bag that came with my cheap 3 piece travel kit. the zipper rusted and was not usable after a few sails. That bag lasted about 5 years.

similar to this but smaller (and dark blue)
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzC4eQ9Ge4T0jdhQVRmQ3QHgNCOdhtczGfheUF3PxMr1d_4GBC2rD5qPjmmH2DkMbpq73vhh5034AqaBy0X3ebSG5d7zHYkct48j81yypYzEzYHfFXCHh8

https://www.amazon.com/Tr…psc=1&smid=AZKSNKE36GZA9


this one would work very well and since it is used, it is "discounted"
https://www.luxedh.com/cdn/shop/files/Louis-Vuitton-Monogram-Keepall-50_182220_front_0_parent_600x.jpg?v=1682695504

https://www.luxedh.com/pr…pxysy4Y5ZNRoCEEYQAvD_BwE



Edited by MN3 on May 03, 2023 - 06:52 PM.
QuoteThat looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.

more like trial and lots of error, dumb luck and most of all - a wealth of knowledge that i stole from others whom knew much much much much ...... more than I.
QuoteThanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is.

IIRC: Nacra 5.8's NA (north america) had oversized jibs and required a bow foil to be added to spread out the load - otherwise the hulls were pulled inward too much
When I was shopping, I was trying to find a boat that didn't have the bow-foil (Topcat calls it a power-spreader.) Mine doesn't have the inverted dolphin striker on it. Instead I have a line that goes from the bridle to an eye on the middle of the spreader to keep it from bending down.
CatFan57
AndinistaI sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), ....
I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. ... I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt.


Thanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is. Agreed that ideally you have everything pre-set and easily accessible. I'm sailing solo mostly, which obviously can present a righting problem with an 18' boat, so that's why I got this thread going. Since you sail regularly in the ocean and often by yourself, you obviously must have a lot of experience getting/being prepared. And getting carried into the surf doesn't sound too appealing - although potentially getting carried out to sea when dismasted or with broken rudders sounds worse.


You’re welcome!
Solo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. If you don’t capsize often, which isn’t a bad thing, you don’t get to practice much, so before you are able to master the technique and right your boat a reasonable % of the times, you will have to wait for a powerboat or to reach land. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. That kept me from mastering the technique without it but I’m okay with that. I feel I might but haven’t really tried afterwards. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider). Something I forget too often is to release the downhaul, it seems a minor detail but it makes righting harder and favors that the boat starts sailing right after righting, which means it’s harder to get back onboard.



Edited by Andinista on May 04, 2023 - 08:27 AM.
QuoteMine doesn't have the inverted dolphin striker

aka pelican striker
MN3
QuoteIn fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed.

that bag was very easy to use. All i did was secure 1 of the 2 straps to the beam/hiking strap (If i recall i used the shackle that the hiking strap was attached to). not zipped shut. anchor was probably just tied to the mast base back then and i had no idea originally to use it in a capsize.

all the anchor line was either in the bag, or probably in the tramp pocket (this was back in the late 90's). it was easy to get to at anytime while the mast was pointing up. easy if i capsized on the side the bag was on and a bit of a stretch (while standing on the hull) post flip if on the dry side.

If i were you .... I would just find some cheap bag with loops (handles), maybe steal one of your wifes/daughters LV or other bag and try it. as per the 4lbs anchor - the alum anchor i showed was 4lbs - it is alum and light, a cheapo walmart steel one will be double the weight but work just as well (for 1/10th the cost)

the bag i used was a cheap carry on flight bag that came with my cheap 3 piece travel kit. the zipper rusted and was not usable after a few sails. That bag lasted about 5 years.

similar to this but smaller (and dark blue)
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzC4eQ9Ge4T0jdhQVRmQ3QHgNCOdhtczGfheUF3PxMr1d_4GBC2rD5qPjmmH2DkMbpq73vhh5034AqaBy0X3ebSG5d7zHYkct48j81yypYzEzYHfFXCHh8

https://www.amazon.com/Tr…psc=1&smid=AZKSNKE36GZA9


this one would work very well and since it is used, it is "discounted"
https://www.luxedh.com/cdn/shop/files/Louis-Vuitton-Monogram-Keepall-50_182220_front_0_parent_600x.jpg?v=1682695504

https://www.luxedh.com/pr…pxysy4Y5ZNRoCEEYQAvD_BwEEdited by MN3 on May 03, 2023 - 06:52 PM.


Okay, I was meaning to say getting access to an anchor and line strapped in a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast would seem to require some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and you're standing on a hull. Not impossible, but some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and the top of the tramp is faced away from you while you are standing on the hull. Yes, I see it would be no problem when the mast is facing up.

Thanks for the tips on the bags. I like the 1st one ($22) but clicked on the link for the second one and saw it's a Louis Vuitton designer bag for $1,500!!, LOL, good sense of humor. For sure that would be my wife's choice if i could afford it. ... Could afford a wife I mean. icon_lol



Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 10:08 AM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
The problem with putting a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast is that it's in the way of the jib and spinnaker sheet blocks on my boat. I have my righting line around the base of the mast and then threaded into the trampoline lacing on the underside of the tramp.

That way it will be easy to get to and not in the way on top of the tramp. Although, once I capsize, I suspect it will be a huge PITA to re-store it.
MN3
QuoteThat looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.

more like trial and lots of error, dumb luck and most of all - a wealth of knowledge that i stole from others whom knew much much much much ...... more than I.


That's why I'm on here - trying to cut down the trial and error and steal some of that wealth of knowledge for myself. Including why pirates drank rum. "Fifteen men on the Dead Man's Chest - Yo ho, ho and a bottle of rum!" I found out "Dead Man's Chest" originally was/came from the name of an island in the British Virgin Islands.



Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 10:45 AM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
AndinistaSolo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider).


I'm wondering what one you use. As of now, I'm intending to build/carry the one shown in this video, which has the length of the boat width. This seems like the best one I've found, and it seems like that length should be enough, given that you put your weight all the way out on the end. Downside (which doesn't seem so bad at all) is I'd have to carry it across my hulls in front of my front cross beam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4

This is the page showing how to construct it, if anyone is interested: https://get.google.com/al…6-QFAgGl?feat=directlink



Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 11:10 AM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
Quote Including why pirates drank rum.

Rum was abundant on islands that grew sugar cane.
QuoteOkay, I was meaning to say getting access to an anchor and line strapped in a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast would seem to require some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and you're standing on a hull.


Requires you to stand on a hiking strap
QuoteFor sure that would be my wife's choice if i could afford it. ... Could afford a wife I mean.

HAHAHA
CatFan57
AndinistaSolo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider).


I'm wondering what one you use. As of now, I'm intending to build/carry the one shown in this video, which has the length of the boat width. This seems like the best one I've found, and it seems like that length should be enough, given that you put your weight all the way out on the end. Downside (which doesn't seem so bad at all) is I'd have to carry it across my hulls in front of my front cross beam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4

This is the page showing how to construct it, if anyone is interested: https://get.google.com/al…6-QFAgGl?feat=directlinkEdited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 11:10 AM.

The same concept, with two main differences:
- Instead of a plate to be inserted on the daggerboard trunk I use a loop of line near the end of the pole that loops around the daggerboard (easier to implement and to store)
- I store the pole parallel rather than perpendicular to the hulls. This way you may test it extensively before cutting it to the final length.
Here is the proof of concept..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKuSSZ7JxBA
Sitting on top and moving backwards as in your video is better than hanging from the pole. The advantage is that the center of mass is further out, if you hang from the pole with the feet on the hull it is no different than using a righting line without pole. If you hang from the hands only, your weight is reduced as your legs start sinking.



Edited by Andinista on May 05, 2023 - 09:15 AM.
Storing it underneath the tramp has a couple disadvantages:
If stored along the center of the tramp it is painful to step on it at each tack. Then I stored it about a foot from one hull, but the tramp started to see some damage over time. Now I store it very close to one hull, where it won't touch the tramp.



Edited by Andinista on May 05, 2023 - 09:16 AM.
Instead of rolling the line around the pole I keep it on the boat, similar to a Hawaiian righting system: it’s a continuous line threaded through SS rings at each corner of the tramp. There is a loop knot on the line at each side at the right position, to hook to a carabiner near the outer end of the pole. (The carabiner is attached to a loop of line around the pole, not directly to an eye strap). I originally had a take away shock cord to manage the excess of line, but I removed it, it was too much stuff under the tramp. I roll the excess of line at the rear beam, around the the tramp cords, attaching the pole there at the same time. I have a bungee with a hook to pull the end of the line after rolling it. At the front beam I have another bungee with a hook to fix the pole at that end.
Not really a continuous line, sorry, It starts and ends at each side of the rear beam
AndinistaThe same concept, with two main differences:
- Instead of a plate to be inserted on the daggerboard trunk I use a loop of line near the end of the pole that loops around the daggerboard (easier to implement and to store)
- I store the pole parallel rather than perpendicular to the hulls. This way you may test it extensively before cutting it to the final length.


I had to be away for a couple of days, but thanks very much for replying with this explanation of your setup. (Including your subsequent posts, which I also read.) I cannot see the youtube video you posted showing the "proof of concept" in your next post because Youtube is telling me the video is private. Is is possible you could change that so the video can be viewed?

I am intrigued by your description, though, because that plate that is inserted on or near the daggerboard trunk is the one thing I don't like about the design I linked to. It doesn't seem like a great idea to have a small area of plywood plate putting a lot of pressure on a concentrated area on the hull, so I was thinking what to do as an an alternative. The idea of a loop around the daggerboard to hold the pole in place sounds intriguing - but it makes me question if that wouldn't result in the loop being still looped around the daggerboard once the boat rights(?). Maybe if I saw it I would understand better.

Interesting about the Hawaiian style line system under the tramp, and also the storage system under the tramp and close alongside one hull. I'm wondering what boat you're using this on and whether you are getting drag from water hitting the pole, etc. when you're in choppy seas.



Edited by CatFan57 on May 06, 2023 - 02:56 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Fixed the video. That was before cutting the pole, it’s shorter now. And the loop isn’t made or a strap but just a line now.
Yes, the loop stays on the daggerboard after righting, just lift the daggerboard to release it. Recovering the pole might be a bit messi but not too terrible.
Boat is a N5.5, no drag from water hitting the pole, I doubt it is significant at all.
[quote=CatFan57]
Andinista
Interesting about the Hawaiian style line system under the tramp, and also the storage system under the tramp and close alongside one hull. I'm wondering what boat you're using this on and whether you are getting drag from water hitting the pole, etc. when you're in choppy seas.Edited by CatFan57 on May 06, 2023 - 02:56 PM.


Here is a drawing of the storage of the system under the tramp. Start from the upper left (starboard, stern (we are looking from below). The blue line is attached to that corner of the tramp, then goes to the pole carabiner which is hooked to a fixed loop knot on the line. Then back up to the upper right, goes through the ring on that corner of the tramp. From there the line goes to the other ring (lower right) and then to the lower left corner to end up attached there. All the excess of line is rolled around the pole at the rear end and secured with the yellow bungee with a hook.

https://www.thebeachcats.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=132327&g2_serialNumber=3



Edited by Andinista on May 09, 2023 - 03:34 PM.
Okay, thanks, I was able to see the video now. And thanks also for the diagram of the line system. That and the video together made it more understandable.

Damn, you got 810 views on the video in just two days. I didn't imagine so many people are reading and interested in an getting an idea for a righting pole and line system.

Obviously the advantage of your system is you have both the pole and line stored under the tramp rather than creating clutter someplace on the top of the boat. It also looks nice to have the lines in place already such that you don't really have to deploy lines when you want to use your righting pole.

I'll give it some more thought and decide which system I like better.

I am leaning towards building the one I linked to though, because I like that you can walk backwards out on the pole and put all your weight on it, while having your hands out to the sides balancing yourself on the lines. I also like that the lines attached to the pole go over the top of the hulls, which I think probably gives the most leverage. I think/hope storing it across the hulls in front of the front crossbeam should be out of the way enough and not cause any problems.

We'll see, but hopefully it will feel good to always be confident of righting without a problem. Thanks again!



Edited by CatFan57 on May 10, 2023 - 04:42 AM.

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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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I also walk backwards on the pole, on the video I’m hanging but not on the water. I deploy the righting line too, not totally necessary but more comfortable, probably only because it’s thicker.
About getting more leverage with the lines above the hulls, that’s not true. If the lines are attached below the hulls or further down, yes they are less effective an get more tension to hold your weight, but they hold the same weight on the same position and therefore you produce the same righting moment. The line tension is a force internal to the system ( boat + sailor on the pole). If you were outside the boat, pulling the line from another boat, for instance, then yes you’d have more leverage.



Edited by Andinista on May 10, 2023 - 08:39 AM.
Another option for a skeg boat is to attach the pole to the front beam near the hull on the water, with a soft shackle. The V line would have to be attached to the bow tang.
Great drawing Andinista! All of my poles have been loosely tied to the mast base and had dyneema "shrouds" going to the beam ends. Lacks the leverage, but requires no work after righting. I have a photo album somewhere.
The Hawaiian style has some slick line management though.

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FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer"
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
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