This is great news!
We all have trouble finding crews with which to sail, and frequently don't go sailing because of the lack.
Actively involving mixed crews in high levels of sailboat racing worldwide can only help build participation in the sport from local clubs on up.
This growth will enhance innovation, possibly create new or cheaper materials, and could re-energize the catamaran community.

Here's a link to a recent conference.
Please note what kind of mixed-crew sailboat they choose to show off:
https://www.sailing.org/n…s/90496.php#.X5x2gUJKjUI

There is worldwide support for this. Anything any of us can do to support it may get you sailing more often, and possibly in an improved catamaran. Imagine carbon fiber masts, booms and crossbars being available for your cat? I'd love to step my mast one handed...

I know, I'm foaming at the mouth here. But the mere fact that this is possible is the best sailing news I've heard in three decades.

Sorry. IOC = International Olympic Committee

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I don't understand how you think adding offshore keelboats to the Olympics helps catamaran sailing?

Offshore Keelboats are definitely not catamarans.

They are boats like the L30 One Design http://l30class.com/en/ and they even changed the rule and lowered the minimum length to include the Mini Class (6.5 Meters). https://www.classemini.com/?



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The IOC approved mixed gender crews for the Nacra 17 in 2016. So this is not really new news.

My understanding is that the intent of the expansion of mixed gender crews by the IOC was to help increase participation by smaller countries many of whom have only sent male teams in the past. The idea is that members of the female teams and male teams could partner up and therefore participate in more events with the same number of representatives on a per country basis. This would reduce costs and increase total participation measured in entries per event.

As for offshore keelboat classes please note the 2024 Olympics are in Paris and the French are the undisputed champions in offshore keelboats and have been for some time. I am not betting offshore keelboats will be an event in 2028 Los Angeles Olympics.

I am not sure any this will "save" US based sailing at the club level or even have any measurable impact at all but that is a discussion for another thread.

Brad in Jax
2x Stiletto 27's (one for sale soon)



Edited by bradinjax on Nov 02, 2020 - 11:30 AM.

bradinjax

I am not sure any this will "save" US based sailing at the club level or even have any measurable impact at all but that is a discussion for another thread.

That is exactly the intended discussion in this thread. How can increased involvement from women (half the population of the world) not help sustain or grow the sport?

DamonLinkous

I don't understand how you think adding offshore keelboats to the Olympics helps catamaran sailing?

Supporting mixed crews in more sailing classes will encourage more women into the sport of sailing. You remember women... the people who are most often missing from your catamaran?

bradinjax

My understanding is that the intent of the expansion of mixed gender crews by the IOC was to help increase participation by smaller countries many of whom have only sent male teams in the past. The idea is that members of the female teams and male teams could partner up and therefore participate in more events with the same number of representatives on a per country basis.

Thank you bradinjax for doing a better job of making my point. Sailing has been in decline for three decades. Recent events represent effort and an opportunity to increase public awareness of the sport. It needs to involve each of us, too. How many people in our family, circle of friends or neighborhood still think that sailing is just one of those guy things? What can we do to change that?

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The decline in the sport of sailing is an American problem. Other parts of the world have a very healthy rate of participation in sailing of all types. I have been fortunate to travel extensively and at times live in Europe and South America (watch out for Argentina, the next sailing powerhouse), spent some time in the Middle East and South Africa. The sport of sailing is doing very well in all those places and everyone knows the Aussies and Kiwis are enthusiastic.

So why has the sport of sailing declined so drastically in the USA over the last 30+ years? I have some ideas but would like to hear others.

We should all be ambassadors for our sport. I have given countless rides to people I just met. I have spent hours and hours while rigging/repairing my boats talking to people about what I am doing. Been stopped in grocery store parking lots and gas stations to answer many questions. But I know too many sailors that will not take anyone out that is not "proven" crew and would not even spend 2 mins explaining to an interested passerby what they are doing.

Just some quick thoughts. I will add more as they occur to me.

Let the discussion begin...



Edited by bradinjax on Nov 04, 2020 - 07:18 PM.

Quote

Supporting mixed crews in more sailing classes will encourage more women into the sport of sailing. You remember women... the people who are most often missing from your catamaran?

My mixed crew skipper is very happy about this news

Unless you are hooking them at a young age, it is an uphill battle for an allotment of people's time in today's busy society.

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bradinjax

We should all be ambassadors for our sport. I have given countless rides to people I just met. I have spent hours and hours while rigging/repairing my boats talking to people about what I am doing. Been stopped in grocery store parking lots and gas stations to answer many questions. But I know too many sailors that will not take anyone out that is not "proven" crew and would not even spend 2 mins explaining to an interested passerby what they are doing.

Just some quick thoughts. I will add more as they occur to me.

Let the discussion begin...Edited by bradinjax on Nov 04, 2020 - 07:18 PM.

In my limited experience on our beach, this is spot on. Our beach used to have regular races and, over the years, the number of boats has dropped. In a group discussion about the bleak future of races, one sailor pointed out that we sail in the same water as the local HS sailing team. He pointed out that those kids would love to crew for anyone who wanted to race. I’m still waiting to see someone take advantage of those kids and that conversation was several years ago.

Dana

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Quote

He pointed out that those kids would love to crew for anyone who wanted to race. I’m still waiting to see someone take advantage of those kids and that conversation was several years ago.

Dana, every year there is the Dunedin Cup where all sorts of fleets race. During the weekend of those races we used to meet up on island 4 with all the kids from the dunedin sailing club (kids) and take them out for rides on catamarans. this happened for many years. Steve Fish even ejected a kid through a dart (stampede) sail - all fun everyone enjoyed it. however that never turned into kids on the beach wanting to sail cats or race.

to be honest i personally never took a kid out on these fun rides. As the son and grandson of lawyers, i look for and avoid liabilities in everything i do. ejecting a kid through a main is great fun until they hit a mast, or break a leg in a capsize or worse. i was never willing to put myself or a kid in that risk.

As per taking kids out racing .... not sure i am a fan. Most times racers are very serious and yelling at crew, and long distance in (often) rough conditions is not a good way to get kids interested. and again - liabilities

MN3

My mixed crew skipper is very happy about this news

In full disclosure I have this picture of my 73 year old grandmother crewing for me in a spring series race at Lake Pleasant.


And Gram after the race...


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Quote

In full disclosure I have this picture of my 73 year old grandmother crewing for me in a spring series race at Lake Pleasant.

That is awesome!

I have been sailing for 2 decades with Hans G (of g-cat fame) who sailed solo, in any weather until his mid 70's. His body started to give him too much grief and sadly he has hung up his sailing gear recently.

Same with our local sailing shop owner Stu. He sailed his dart into his mid 70's and now Dana is the owner of that boat. Stu still races on his O'day 18' competitively (at least he did last year, not certain about this year). I have crewed for him in his O'day and after i learned what i was doing we won every heat (5 or 6).

both were/are an inspiration to many locals.
Meanwhile i can barley lift my arms after a day on the water (rotator cuff are both shot) and i am only 17 (that may be a huge lie)

Quote

I have been sailing for 2 decades with Hans G (of g-cat fame) who sailed solo, in any weather until his mid 70's. His body started to give him too much grief and sadly he has hung up his sailing gear recently.

First I heard Hans G. has hung it up. I first met him 8-10 years ago at a Mug Race. I had just bought a G-Cat 5.7 the week before and I am sure it was quite obvious I did not know what I was doing with it. He walked up, introduced himself, (I still had no idea who he was) then proceeded to quietly and efficiently sort me out. After he left the team next to me filled me in on the details. What an interesting guy. He is a great boat designer, world class free diver, and outstanding competitive sailor. Someone should write a book about him.

He won our class, I was third, my best Mug Race class finish ever in 20+ attempts.

MN3

Meanwhile i can barley lift my arms after a day on the water (rotator cuff are both shot) and i am only 17 (that may be a huge lie)

Dood, you have 6461 posts here (at this time).
Multiply that against your typing speed, your incessant need for sleep and other distractions, and you have to be well over 29.
Just sayin'.

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Quote

Someone should write a book about him.

he started down that route at one point
probably chewed the guys ear off and he bled to death :)

Don't forget his aquaponic farming that helped the hungry feed themselves
http://www.morningstarfishermen.org/

Quote

you have to be well over 29.

i am bad at math. I am sticking with 17

This thread has meandered, but getting back to declining participation rates, I always wonder if (what I perceive as) the lack of communications technology employed is a stumbling point. My club and other clubs have regattas that don't appear to have much publicity. In my professional organizations, internet presence is the difference between failing and thriving. I have posted races on this site, but it does take some time. My club has a bulletin board with people who want to crew. Why not have this on a digital forum.
Maybe the advanced age of us sailors (of which I am one) might not promote the use of digital tools - NOR digital crawlers to create calendar events; a Sinder or Rinder application - Tinder for sailing or racing to match crews and skippers; better use of social media. Pair digital with the older generations' skill in throwing a lake-side or beach-side party, and you have a winning combination sure to attract more to the sport.

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Ted
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Lets get back on track...

bradinjax

The decline in the sport of sailing is an American problem. Other parts of the world have a very healthy rate of participation in sailing of all types. I have been fortunate to travel extensively and at times live in Europe and South America (watch out for Argentina, the next sailing powerhouse), spent some time in the Middle East and South Africa. The sport of sailing is doing very well in all those places and everyone knows the Aussies and Kiwis are enthusiastic.

So why has the sport of sailing declined so drastically in the USA over the last 30+ years? I have some ideas but would like to hear others.

Hint: There is something unique in US based sailing. Most other countries have not followed the US model.

Quote

This thread has meandered, but getting back to declining participation rates, I always wonder if (what I perceive as) the lack of communications technology employed is a stumbling point.

Where it doesn't help - i don't think it is a cause

The interest in the sport was failing / flailing and was evident even when Catsailor.com was still well used (that site was full of die hard cat racers and several engineers). This was discussed and addressed ad nauseam. The forum used to be so busy that you could hit f5 (refresh) and there would be many new posts. that dwindled and dwindled.

As the cat sailors aged, beach access diminished, and new sports came around that were much easier to access, afford and rig .... the current state of recreational cat sailing in the US was set (IMHO).

Also, to be perfectly honest, sailing on a cat is not comfortable. Sitting for hours with your legs in front of you is hard on the body. Strapped into a harness for any length of time ... is hard to take. Also there is no room for comforts nor necessitates.

Even on boats where there is room ...
There are still lots of marina's with masts up - not that many of them move out of port often around here. Around here we are experiencing sailboats being moved out of marina$ and parked outside the marina. And mostly un-used and becoming rust buckets that eventually break free. Every big storm that comes through has a few break free.

We have submerged boats that aren't marked and have been there for years now - total environmental disaster and navigational hazard that isn't being addressed

There are still lots of yacht clubs. Not that many young people are interested in joining (around here at least).


I have seen the shift from sailing to SUP, Kayak and powerboats first hand here - and we have beach access and a plethora of cheap used cats.



Edited by MN3 on Nov 07, 2020 - 12:50 PM.

There are multiple factors for sailing community shrinkage in the US:

We can start with the national congress. They passed a huge tax in 1990 on any sailboat over $100,000, and in two year's time most American shipyards had closed, filed bankruptcy, or moved/sold overseas. Congress had priced them out of business. "In 1991, sales of luxury boats dropped 70 percent from 1990's level, while overall boat sales fell 18 percent." NYTimes (Also Washington Post)

The repeal of this destructive tax was completed in a glorious bi-partisan vote, but was too little too late. With the departure of the large sailboat industry/community, so went all major support for sailing here at all levels. NACRA (aka the North American Catamaran Racing Association) moved to Europe and Australia.

Rising oil prices and the EPA pounding the fiberglass and paint industries closed off the small boat makers. The EPA even went after the styrofoam industry, and targeted Clark Foam (a $40 million company) specifically into extinction.

Inflation? Hardly. If you bought a cat new in 1988 for US$2100, inflated costs now would be only $4,620. The cost of the materials have skyrocketed, and the newer materials (carbon fiber) are even more expensive to engineer and utilize. Even the bare bones roto-molded cats start at $5000. A new NACRA 500 is $12,000. Add a trailer, insurance, safety equipment... it will cost as much as a brand new car (Chevy Spark)! It has become an expensive sport.

To paraphrase Will Rogers, "I'm happy that we don't get as much Congress as we pay for." I am not arguing any party politics here. I'm just an angry victim of national policy dictated by morons who are completely capable of destroying entire industries.

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All the above are true but not the biggest reason (in my opinion) for the decline in participation in the sport of sailing in the United States.

The problem is that the US still relies on the Yacht Club model for development of new sailors. Most of the rest of the world uses the Sailing Club model. Here is a breakdown of the differences between a sailing club and a yacht club:

Yacht Clubs
1) Expensive. Membership required plus possible monthly minimums.
2) Emphasis on social events over sailing
3) Some youth sailing but not emphasized
4) Generally has a few large annual sailing events
5) Handicap system for scoring competitive events
6) Bring your own boat

Sailing Club:
1) Inexpensive. No membership required, pay as you go
2) Generally supplies boats
3) One design fleets
4) Emphasis on competitive sailing over social events
5) Emphasis on youth and developmental sailing programs
6) Hosts a lot of sailing events targeted to different age groups and skill levels

In my part of the country (North Florida) there are 9 sailing organizations. All require a membership of some sort, some modest others quite exclusive. Three (maybe four) have some sort of youth/development program. None offer a true one design fleet or pay-as-you-go type option as in a sailing club.

Over the last 40+ years I have watched the Yacht Club model get more expensive, members get older and do less actual sailing but the organizations that operate more like a sailing club are less expensive, have a much younger membership and get more time on the water.



Edited by bradinjax on Nov 08, 2020 - 10:47 AM.

agreed on all points Bob

Please delete for me Damon



Edited by bradinjax on Nov 08, 2020 - 10:46 AM.

bradinjax

All the above are true but not the biggest reason (in my opinion) for the decline in participation in the sport of sailing in the United States.

The problem is that the US still relies on the Yacht Club model for development of new sailors. Most of the rest of the world uses the Sailing Club model. Here is a breakdown of the differences between a sailing club and a yacht club:

Yacht Clubs
1) Expensive. Membership required plus possible monthly minimums.
2) Emphasis on social events over sailing
3) Some youth sailing but not emphasized
4) Generally has a few large annual sailing events
5) Handicap system for scoring competitive events
6) Bring your own boat

Sailing Club:
1) Inexpensive. No membership required, pay as you go
2) Generally supplies boats
3) One design fleets
4) Emphasis on competitive sailing over social events
5) Emphasis on youth and developmental sailing programs
6) Hosts a lot of sailing events targeted to different age groups and skill levels

In my part of the country (North Florida) there are 9 sailing organizations. All require a membership of some sort, some modest others quite exclusive. Three (maybe four) have some sort of youth/development program. None offer a true one design fleet or pay-as-you-go type option as in a sailing club.

Over the last 40+ years I have watched the Yacht Club model get more expensive, members get older and do less actual sailing but the organizations that operate more like a sailing club are less expensive, have a much younger membership and get more time on the water.Edited by bradinjax on Nov 08, 2020 - 10:47 AM.

Agreed with all points Brad
your points, my points and Bob's points = a LOT of barriers


Our Community sailing center which has lots of the items you mention at the both levels is not outragious for kids to join but damn expensive for adults and cat storage is crazy

https://www.clearwatercom…ysailing.org/membership/

Family Membership: $525
Individual Membership: $400
Youth Membership: (18 and under): $190
Seasonal Family: (4 consecutive months): $375
Seasonal Individual:(4 consecutive months): $325
1 Month Individual: $250
1 Month Family: $300


Catamaran up to 16’ – $630/year (PLUS membership)
Catamaran over 16’- $840/year (PLUS membership)

Another problem is the resistance at all levels to modernize.

The usual progression for youth sailing in the US is something along the lines of:

Optimist
Laser
Finn, 470, 49er

All of these are very old designs. The 49er, the most recently approved Olympic sailing boat is based off designs from the late 1800's.

Other countries that use the sailing club model use mainly the RS sailing boats. These boats are much cheaper, more durable, built to very high tolerances, and have modern rigging sail and hull designs.

RS is the dominant dingy manufacturer for the rest of the world but is rarely seen in the US. Their market is sailing clubs, not yacht clubs.

This may be an old thread - but definitely a very current topic. I had sold my Hobie 18 back in 2012 and now want to get back on a cat. I just sold my Mastercraft which was the family boat in the intervening years while my sons grew up. Neither of them have the time or interest for boating at the moment (going to college, work etc).

I want to sail with others but I'm finding that I will have to join a yacht club of some form here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Well, to do that will take an initiation fee that ranges from hundreds to thousands of dollars. Also, monthly dues of, at minimum, $100 - plus a monthly "minimum" charge of $40 for food and drink. Honestly, although I can afford this I can see why there is a dearth of younger people in the sport/hobby.

My thoughts were confirmed when I browsed the photo albums of several yacht clubs in the DFW metroplex area. Estimating ages of the participants was easy - few I would say were under 50 years old, and most were well into grey hair and middle-sixties. Myself, I am 58.

My two sons do not have the finances at this stage in life to support a $200 membership to which one would add boat storage fees, regatta entrance fees and so forth. One club had an additional $50 per month tacked on to their dues for capital improvements.

The other thing worth noting as I have been researching a boat to purchase: Other than a Hobie 16, it is really hard to find a new beach cat in the US. It isn't just a product of COVID - there aren't any manufacturers! Almost everything I have been looking at requires an order amongst other orders so that a container can be imported. Also, I'm not really finding a lot of used beach cats for sale either.

Anyway, there won't be any fixing this until an organization such as US Sailing get behind a new methodology and we leave a pure profit driven motive to a secondary position.

By the way, as an avid motorcycle racing fan, the same thing is true here too. In MotoGP, the US doesn't have a contender in that sport. While some of the causes are different, overall it is a decline in local support, reduced access to locations to race, and the huge cost of participating driven by entities that own the facilities, the rights, the rules and so on.

I am now concerned that when I buy my boat, that it will be expensive just to hang out with like minded cat owners on some local lake.

Chris.

Used cats are available - you just have to do a regional search including areas outside Texas, though I got the model I was looking for in Texas. Not a ton, however I'll have to admit. The market isn't exactly "hot". For the reasons you mentioned, I trailer-sail for now. And, yes there's actually a sailing club by me that's looking fairly attractive for mast-up storage but the fees are about the same, I think. All more barriers to entry for the newbie. I have to admit, however down here in Houston/Galveston, Texas City Dike Yacht club counters all that, but you have to trailer your boat to the Texas City Dike.

What about DFW Beachcats @ "Hobie Point"? Also trailer-sailing, but I think that's the only way to reduce costs for those so inclined to do so. I personally like having my boat in my back yard so I can do maintenance on it whenever I get some free time to tinker.

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