Posted this on Hobie.com and FB, but got nothing specific, so....

Switching from the standard, 6:1 to an 8:1 on my H21SE. Stock, it has 2 attachment points on the boom for 2 2-sheave blocks. The 8:1 I have has the 4-way sheave on top of the traveler, which is mighty inconvenient. I want to move the 4-way to the boom, which means a single attachment point; probably the outboard one, ala every other beachcat out there with said device.

Downsides to this on the hobie? Can the single stainless strap take the load at the single point, or was Hobie just trying to make things easier/cheaper for the user with the 2 blocks? I noticed like Nacra I-20's sort of strap the block to the boom and clew of the main, which is an interesting strategy...

Going to set up and switch it over this weekend. Thanks for the advice -

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

i have upgraded my blocks on most of my cats
h18 i went from stock to a harken 7:1 rachomatic then to an 8:1
on my mystere i went from a 8:1 to 9 and occasionally a 10:1 (via dyneema stropes)

all with no issue.
currently my boats i added a dynema strope to spread the load (actually to get the blocks directly above the beam)


don't need much more than this:




Edited by MN3 on Aug 20, 2020 - 02:54 PM.

It's not the bail but how the bail is attached. Presumably Hobie spread the blocks apart so as to spread the load apart. You lose some power by having the blocks apart. If you use one of the two existing bails use the one further aft. If the bail is too far forward it will take more sheeting effort to get the mainsheet tension you need. If you are going to relocate the bail your best place would probably be just aft of a spot over the traveler. I assume the main is loose footed. If it is, you could experiment by just tying the block on.

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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Loose-footed - yes. I can't think of a beachcat that isn't, now that you bring that up...

Ahh, thanks! Yeah, was considering the aft bail/strap which is held on with 4 rivets: 2 on each side. It's stamped stainless, bent and relieved.

MN3 - PERFECT photo! That's what I was talking about. The Hobie boom is a rectangular cross section and the outhaul car inside the boom takes up some space towards the end of it. With my current EP made sail, it seemed as if I couldn't get enough outhaul on it before it would run into the stop (I think). Adding a soft shackle/strope at the end makes sense and gets the block out farther on the boom, improving leverage of the main sheet.

Not much experience with soft shackles - no problems with them coming undone, huh? I never hear about that happening either...

Thanks again.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

Quote

Not much experience with soft shackles - no problems with them coming undone, huh? I never hear about that happening either...

if they are made and used correctly they are safe to use

There was no such thing as a quad block back when the 21 came out. The most you could get was a triple. That’s why Hobie needed two bales on the boom with two double blocks each.

Take the forward bale off and mount it back behind the existing aft bale so the bottom angles forward and butts against/meshes with the existing aft bale. Then run your shackle through both bales for added strength.

sm

charlescarlis

Loose-footed - yes. I can't think of a beachcat that isn't, now that you bring that up...

The Hobie 16.

You will have no issue just using the aft bale on your boom.
It and your boom are plenty strong.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

You know, I never studied a 16, embarrassingly. And been around a TON of them. Powers of observation; lacking...



--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

klozhald

You will have no issue just using the aft bale on your boom.
It and your boom are plenty strong.

The H21 uses the same boom extrusion and boom bales as the H18. I have cracked a boom bale on my H18 in the past, which is why I would recommend moving the forward bale back and doubling up the aft bale if only using a single attachment point. It is a simple matter of drilling out and re-installing four rivets - cheap insurance. As an alternative, you can take a piece of high strength line and loop it around the boom and through the shackle for the top block to act as a safety line in case the bale breaks. I have done that as well. Better than having the thing let go at a bad time.

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Aug 21, 2020 - 07:27 AM.

I'll re-orient the "bale"; didn't know what to call that piece - now I do. Got good at taking out and re-setting rivets... Plus, I have a second boom, so that's easy enough if things go south; I doubt they would, though. Alternatively, I was thinking of splicing a line into a loop or soft shackle to go around both bales, but that moves the block forward and I increase clearance between blocks and maintain a single point of failure there.

Thanks for the tips.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

Another point on the bales. My P19 is configurable for island trips and has a Cheeta motor mount bracket. In the up position, the motor was interfering with the blocks on tacks/gybes. So I installed a 2nd boom hanger further forward to solve the problem. That induced a second problem: Mast de-rotation, especially in lighter air. So the rear hanger is the way to go, if you have the option. It keeps forward pressure on the gooseneck.

Also, I just upgraded to a Harken 12:1. Used it in the tri-point race and have one issue with a captive fairlead preventing just a small portion of line from leaving the cam cleat. So I really have to snap the line down to get it fully out of the cleat. Another issue may be sailing solo in moderate air, where it may not sheet out as quick as I need it to. I've been experimenting with using the traveller in gusts. That's supposed to be the way to go, but it just feels weird.

Finally, good information on using a loop of dyneema for safety. I had not thought of blowing out the boom hanger but I now suppose that is a possibility with the 12:1.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Quote

Also, I just upgraded to a Harken 12:1. Used it in the tri-point race

on a beach cat? great googly moogly - you must have 80000' of sheet on your tramp when closehauled

Quote

So I really have to snap the line down to get it fully out of the cleat. Another issue may be sailing solo in moderate air, where it may not sheet out as quick as I need it to.

Sheeting angles with main cleats are always a tough one for me. On deck vs on wire vs on wing and or on wire on wing .... grrrrr

MN3

Quote

Also, I just upgraded to a Harken 12:1. Used it in the tri-point race

on a beach cat? great googly moogly - you must have 80000' of sheet on your tramp when closehauled

If memory serves, it's over 40 ft.

Quote

So I really have to snap the line down to get it fully out of the cleat. Another issue may be sailing solo in moderate air, where it may not sheet out as quick as I need it to.

Sheeting angles with main cleats are always a tough one for me. On deck vs on wire vs on wing and or on wire on wing .... grrrrr

The sheeting angle is fine. Its a fairlead that prevents me from getting it out of the cleat without a really hard snap. Here's the product page from Murrays. You can just see it in the picture to the left.

https://www.murrays.com/product/28-121/

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

gotcha - yes that looks troublesome

I had 12:1 on my 21SE with a squaretop. It is a lot of line to deal with, but don’t know how you sheet in a 7 or 8:1 when powered up. I had an extended spacer above the cleat to help with the issue with releasing the line from the cleat. Wish I could attach a picture here.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Scott you can email me at asn 1987 at aol dotco m and i will attach

There appears to be only one photo in existence on the internet, and that is at Murrays. I've cropped and resized the area that is my issue.

http://www.catsail.com/crap/12-1-fairlead.jpg

The issue is that fairlead "hoop" that inhibits the line from fully disengaging from the blocks. And it is somehow embedded into the plastic, so it can't just be removed. I would have to remove the entire part under and over the cleat, then fabricate a spacer.

It's odd that there is this problem. The line spec for the blocks is 3/8, but the line in the photo looks smaller. I don't think I can handle anything smaller than 3/8 on my hands.

Also interesting... I searched high and low and found NO reeving diagrams for these blocks. Not even on Harken's website. I got clues from the photo at Murrays, then messed around for 2 hours until I got it right.

In researching this morning, I'm finding folks with 10:1 blocks using "line tapering" for less friction, which solves the other issue I have where the mainsheet may not sheet out fast enough when solo sailing.



Edited by mattson on Aug 24, 2020 - 11:25 AM.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Quote

Also interesting... I searched high and low and found NO reeving diagrams for these blocks. Not even on Harken's website. I got clues from the photo at Murrays, then messed around for 2 hours until I got it right.

that stinks. i would call them - they have been fantastic with support for me over the years

Quote

In researching this morning, I'm finding folks with 10:1 blocks using "line tapering" for less friction, which solves the other issue I have where the mainsheet may not sheet out fast enough when solo sailing.

+1



Edited by MN3 on Aug 24, 2020 - 11:54 AM.

I just send MN3 my pictures. Glad to hear you got them reeved, sorry to hear it took so long. My friend who bought my 12:1 originally had hand sketches from someone at Harken that he worked with to figure it out.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

looks to me you could remove that entire cleat assembly and replace with a stock cleat. use some nylon washers or composite ones and build up a fairlead with an eyestrap and avoid all those issues

MN3

looks to me you could remove that entire cleat assembly and replace with a stock cleat. use some nylon washers or composite ones and build up a fairlead with an eyestrap and avoid all those issues

Concidentally, my friend, Bob Martinez was at the harbor yesterday showing me this exact same set up which I will be going with. (By the way, I removed the entire fairlead to see how that would work and you probably already know that this did not work at all.)

Had the boat out in relatively heavy solo stuff yesterday, and finding the 12:1 both good and bad. Way easier sheeting obviously, but you have to move a lot of line to make an adjustment. This boat has a harken traveler and track installed. Since the P19 typically has an integrated track, I'm thinking this is a forward beam with the track installed on it. Or just another one off from the factory as I am finding these boats sometimes vary a bit. Given the great performance of the traveler, I may just start controlling trim with it. I've done it and it works well. Just feels kinda weird not having a sheet in my hand.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

... And I've got my old P19 disassembled in the yard. I just measured the front and rear cross beams on and they are not the same length. So if somebody DID put a front crossbeam on the rear of the boat, I've got a whole different problem. Will measure when I get to the harbor later.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

wowza!

Crossbars are the correct length. I'll need another excuse for my racing performance.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

mattson

Crossbars are the correct length. I'll need another excuse for my racing performance.

hahah~

Looks like Murray’s has a “high roller” fairlead kit which is the spacers to give the larger area in the fairlead.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

smfinley

Looks like Murray’s has a “high roller” fairlead kit which is the spacers to give the larger area in the fairlead.

Just viewed this. I figured somebody must be selling those. As it is, I purchased a couple of nylon spacers for 89 cents and cut some 1 inch lengths off a sprinkler riser pipe I got for a buck. The riser pipe fits perfectly over the spacers and rotates. Put it all over a couple of long stainless bolts I had in stock. Works way, WAY better on the water than what I had before.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Not sure why you don't want to spend $60 plus shipping ... :)



(well done sir!)



Edited by MN3 on Aug 31, 2020 - 09:01 AM.

MN3

Not sure why you don't want to spend $60 plus shipping ... :)



(well done sir!)Edited by MN3 on Aug 31, 2020 - 09:01 AM.

That's pricey! One reason I just went cheap was that I was not sure if it would work, so I figured I'd go with the real ones after trying mine. But mine work so well, I'll just stick with them.

Still amazes me that I spend over $650 on a set of blocks and they didn't work right until I modified them. BTW, I also defeated one of the blocks and turned it into a 10:1. The 12:1 is just too much line to move when making adjustments.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Dogboy

I would recommend moving the forward bale back and doubling up the aft bale if only using a single attachment point.

Charlescarlis,
If you choose to do this, align the bottom hoops of the bales close enough together to get a shackle around them, but angle the straps on each side in a V formation to get as much metal as possible between the rivet holes in the two straps. Your mainsheet (and the wind force it counters) can generate enough power to crack the boom extrusion between two side-by-side rivets and form a common channel. This is as undesirable as cracking a boom bale, if not more so, because it will be hidden under the bales.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

If you are mounting bales to the P19 boom, be aware of the outhaul traveler car. If you are in range of the car, you have to mount the bale about as low as possible to not interfere with it.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

mattson

If you are mounting bales to the P19 boom, be aware of the outhaul traveler car. If you are in range of the car, you have to mount the bale about as low as possible to not interfere with it.

Really good point Bill.
Take the rest of the day off and sail the Channel.
You deserve it.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Alright! That's the plan-double offset at an angle. Will set up Friday for a Saturday sail with my kids out to Redfish Island...

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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