So, I've just upgraded my H21SE boat to the Miracle 20/Hobie Tiller Connectors. Problem is, at full rudder deflection, the crossbar lines up parallel with the tiller arms and now can rotate and the crossbar can flip upside down. I've put teflon tape on the threads on the one end to keep the adjuster from moving but only helps so much.

I'm guessing I'm missing something. Like, I'm thinking the bungee cords do need replacing, perhaps that's it?? I would not have thought so, but also haven't tried it. Just know I have to fix it... ANy sage words of wisdom?

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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as always - pics make it much easier for visualize what you are talking about

Add a bungie to the tiller yoke and then to the eyestrap for the traveler line. Tension enough to keep it from going past the problem point. Works well on an A cat so should be perfect for your Hobie.

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Master UniRig Sailor
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Another option would be to install a bumper in the transom to stop the rudder from turning too far.

https://www.mcmaster.com/bumper-feet

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Apr 28, 2020 - 07:53 AM.

It may not help your issue, but those shock cords definitely need to be tight. I've had the clip that holds the connection together pop off a couple of times. Once it happened on the leeward side while beam reaching on the last leg of a distance race. I had the windward rudder up to reduce drag, too, so we were screaming along with no steerage! I eased the main a little so the jib would keep the bow off the wind while the crew put things back together.

If you use some good marine grade shock cord, you can tighten it several times as it ages before having to replace it.

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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Cool - thanks.
Cords are not real tight, and got a roll of the good stuff I'll replace it with. I'll get some pics as soon as possible; sailing season is now.
I don't think the bumper business SHOULD be needed as these things are running on a ton of boats, and appear to be a GREAT update; I'm thinking I'm just not doing something right.
You know, I actually like working on this thing about as much as sailing it. Of course, it's also in my back yard next to my shop... Can walk away/take a break/machine what I need and when frustrated grab a barley-pop.

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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Quote

You know, I actually like working on this thing about as much as sailing it.

it's fun for the first couple thousand minutes :)

I still enjoy fiddling with things and ways to improve my boat - when i can't sail

charlescarlis

I don't think the bumper business SHOULD be needed as these things are running on a ton of boats, and appear to be a GREAT update; I'm thinking I'm just not doing something right.

Maybe, maybe not.....EDIT

Check this post from Matt Miller. The Hobie 20 actually had a bumper on the rudder system for exactly the reason you describe. On other Hobies, the deck flange acts as a stop, but on the 20 (and apparently the 21) the rudders will over rotate without a bumper.

http://www.hobie.com/foru…ewtopic.php?f=34&t=63121

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Apr 28, 2020 - 07:36 PM.

So, I came up with an interim solution, as I do not want to add a bumper; it won't allow the rudders to go far enough hard over if I add it. So, Teflon tape wrapped around the threads of the toe in/out adjuster prevents the over-rotation. and appears to allow everything to rotate really freely. I believe a jam nut against the threads or otherwise some way to lock that adjustment would do. I also put brand new bungees on the clips, but this had little effect on the problem. But, they needed replacement anyway, so I did.
Still thinking there's a more elegant solution.

"Flopped"/ over-rotated (i.e. REAL bad in a tack or gybe)

Regular:




Edited by charlescarlis on May 08, 2020 - 09:36 AM.

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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Thanks for the link to the H20 thing; interesting solution and it would retro-fit to these castings, only I'd have to either cast or machine them out of a hunk of rubber. There must be something about not allowing the cross bar to rotate on one side I may be missing... Guess it's time to test it.

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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I'm wondering if the curved bar induces the rotation. I've got this set up, but my cross bar is straight and it does not rotate like yours.

Like tradisrad pointed out, the curved tiller tie bar is the culprit. The system was designed for a straight tie bar.



Edited by wxguy on May 08, 2020 - 05:38 PM.

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Master UniRig Sailor
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charlescarlis

Still thinking there's a more elegant solution.

Put the original (non-Miracle 20) connectors back on? No issue with those.

sm

A straight bar would fix it. It's also way too nice to have to dump the mod. Makes setup and transport way easier. The other option offered was to rivet the fixed/rotating side, which I'll check out this weekend.

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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Dogboy

charlescarlis

Still thinking there's a more elegant solution.

Put the original (non-Miracle 20) connectors back on? No issue with those.

sm

+1
simple and trusted systems wins the race

If i am seeing this system correctly, a small clip is held in place with bungee that holds the crossbar to the tiller extension.

Looks like something that can fail in a capsize or if kicked, or some kid on the beach playing with.

also adding / drilling holes in my tiller or crossbar is something i would avoid at all costs - i have had several of each fail in my hands (usually do to using too much force lifting or locking down rudders, or stupidly leaning on the crossbar) so i avoid adding rust/ failure points when possible

One last comment - that ratchet strap farm looks like an opportunity to upgrade your system and probably save some time rigging and teardown :

If you use knots (truckers hitch, rolling hitch, etc) you could stop using ratchet straps.

I grew to dislike ratchet straps:
they can crush your hulls if over tightened by excited crew (or anyone), they rust, they vibrate when on the road and they can scratch the crap out of your boat. -

I quit using ratchets decades ago. Trust my knots and softer lines. Great advice!

To the OP; don't rivet the connectors! Replace back to stock or go with the straight bar.

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Master UniRig Sailor
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A straight bar will not 100% solve the problem. The bar will still be able to flip over, it will just be less inclined to do so because less mass up high trying to flip over. I also see no way you can rivet the connector. The part that fits in the tiller arm pivots on a bolt (with a bushing). As far as I can tell, there’s nothing there to rivet that would stop the rotation. You could tighten up the bolt to the point that the connector end stops rotating. That is one possible solution as long as the bolt doesn’t loosen up (use loctite). Or use a bumper on the hull or a line between the tiller yoke and the traveler becket (on the rear crossbar) to limit rudder rotation.

sm

All good. I actually have a couple cross bars. This one is my spare, so going back is easy. I'll keep playing this one out because it seems to be really a neat system and does make setup easier.

No ratchet straps there- they're the simple pinch straps and are temporary side supports for the rear mast support, which folds down and is a part of the trailer. A hack to keep it from rattling around, so yup I agree.

Thx

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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My 21SE has the same issue with the H20 connector. I always assumed it was the curved tiller that caused the problem. Wish I had an answer, but wanted to let you know I had the same issue.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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My 21SE has the same issue with the H20 connector. I always assumed it was the curved tiller that caused the problem. Wish I had an answer, but wanted to let you know I had the same issue.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Didn't get out to it this weekend (Mother's day priorities), but Matt Miller indicated that Hobie Europe used to "freeze" the swivel/non-adjusting end of the cross-bar comnnector by extending the rivets through them - or something like that. I can attest that a simple addition of teflon tape to the threads of the toe-in adjuster and leaving the swivel end free worked magic so far. I think the least intrusive option is to find or machine a nylon jam nut for the threaded side. Guess I'll need to make another large tap out of a bolt..

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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The non-adjusting end of the tiller crossbar should already be fixed. It is solid piece of plastic.

You would need to stop the rotation of the fitting in the end of the tiller arm (the part with the stainless stud that the tiller crossbar drops onto). To stop that fitting from rotating, all you should need to do is remove it from the tiller arm (will need to drill out rivets) and then tighten the bolt that holds it together so it binds up the fitting and stops rotating. A little loctite should keep it tight.

sm

It's not the tiller arm that's rotating; that's fine. It's the crossbar that's rotating. The non-adjustable side of the cross bar on the one I have is a swivel, designed to rotate. Looks like what's in the factory manual and I THOUGHT it was anodized aluminum. Maybe not stock?

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Chuck C.
H21SE 408
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