Wondering how long it takes to go from trailer to sailing for you guys? Some of the local Fleet 448 guys nearby are pretty quick. I have to contend with diamond wires on the Nacra. I am trying to optimize my systems preseason and want a realistic target. My first year was slow, esp solo.



Edited by ctcataman on Apr 07, 2020 - 03:57 PM.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

i rig solo (usually have help stepping but that is all)
am 45-50 min from stepping out my car and pushing into the water sans spin (if not distracted by people)
that is:
unsecure shrouds and mast tiedowns
step mast
push off trailer, raise jib
add rudders, crossbar
raise main
get wet

add 20-30 min to rig a spin


jib and main blocks live on boat and have a hook to attach to boom
spin (when on the boat) often lives in the snuffer bag to speed rigging

Sidenote: my friend who has a g-cat 5.7 is about 30 min rig or tear down



Edited by MN3 on Apr 07, 2020 - 03:04 PM.

For me, there are 2 types of setups (Note: H17 setup with jib/super jib, spin/code 0 and either boomless or boom)

1. 1st time of year requires everything to be put on (shrouds, rudders, jib, spin, main, sheets, etc.) and of course, step the mast. I pick a real nice day and take my time and I would guess ~ 1 1/2 hours but that also includes time for snacks, a swim, tennis ball water toss with dog, etc.

2. With mid-season setup, everything is left attached (shrouds are left attached, looped and tied in place for trailering, rudders and tiller remain on boat secured for trailering, jib is left furled around forestay and I go with a furled code 0 rather than spin as the separate code 0 pole is put on and tied down in ~3 minutes in contrast to rigging the spin). With this setup, it is simply:
a. raise the mast and attach forestay with jib already up
b. run jib sheets
c. raise the code 0 and run code 0 sheets
d. raise the main and attach blocks
I never timed myself but this can be done in under 20 minutes solo

James H17+/F25C+

Interesting question.
45 minutes to 1 hrs, working alone and starting from the trailer with the mast down. (N5.5, no spi)
I'd like to say 30 mins but it takes more.
A couple improvements I added recently, because I have to step the mast more often:
- I replaced the rear cradles with rollers, it slides much easier in and out the trailer.
- To manage the standing rigging I have a couple tubes (a piece of hose, 10mm diam or so with a cut along) to wrap the wires at each side and I tie these tubes at the mast support. That helps a lot, without it it takes several minutes to arrange the wires before stepping the mast.

Before that I added fast shackles at several places, I think the only split rings I have are at the shrounds, stay and rudder pins (had something else there that eventually failed so went back to split rings).



Edited by Andinista on Apr 07, 2020 - 06:57 PM.

I rig my Tiger, jib left of the furler, main and spinnaker, solo in just under an hour.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Hobie 21, I'm at hour and 15-1.5... Intolerable. I found using old Cordura satchels with 2 zippers pockets and the typical buckles (from conventions) work fantastic to manage cabling and buckle around mast.

Next is getting the mast manipulation finished. A V-block for the front beam and one for a ladder should reduce set-up time to under ab hour. I'm too timid to trailer with rudders on. If I did do it, I think I could bring it down to 30 minutes with expert crew on a good day. I'm really at accepting 1 hour from now on, making it as easy as possible and not missing anything before saving any more time. I'm new, though...

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

Quote

found using old Cordura satchels with 2 zippers pockets and the typical buckles (from conventions) work fantastic to manage cabling and buckle around mast.

9

That is a great idea.

I use ball bungee cords to hold stays to mast during trailering.

A tall ladder is used too. I have a two foot wide board on top with some corrugate drain pipe cut lengthwise attached. It allows mast to slide and not tip the ladder.

The Nacra hinge pins are such a PITA i leave them on. I want to add something super high visibilty to them at tips to avoid getting them tapped by tail gaters at lights.

I under slung my axle to keep boat low.

At one lake, Bantam in CT, i can launch but vetting to boat to the staging dock jn a head wind, to park the car is another mystery.

I am probably at one hour. The DIY Mast stepper 3 i use is a kludge, but it works.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

Quote

To manage the standing rigging I have a couple tubes

This is genius!!!!

The wire management is my biggest nemesis. Is this rubber tube? Is it split? Where along mast do you put it?

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

My Hobie 21SE is still resting in its' winterized state. It would take me most of a day to have it ready to trailer to our sailing club (Lake Monroe Sailing Association, Bloomington Indiana). And another day to built it as it is completely disassembled.

Once I put it together , raise the mast , setup my roll furling Genoa and cover it with a snorkel ....I need about 45 minutes to hoist the top down furling spinnaker , remove the Genoa snorkel , pull the trailer down to the launch area , pack the cooler ,slide it off the trailer and it on to some cradles, park my tow vehicle and raise the main sail. All of this is done without help so not to be distracted or hurried and in the early hours of the day... This is when I take a solo shake down cruise and wait for crew to arrive...........Patience is my preferred attitude.....and being retired allows me the time to enjoy life without the interruption of waiting on help or crew. This big heavy cat is always a trailer launch and retrieve boat.

I purchasing this boat new in '89 at a boat show. My buddies would flock down to the Paynetown State Park to help build , set up and sail with me. It was a group effort back than. I never thought I could set it up without help...than one New Years Eve I revisited that assumption and figured out with patience and a place to leaving the boat mostly set up at a club, I could solo sail this big and stable boat. Never look back.....move forward.

--
Bill 404 21SE
--

So, this is what I "discovered" as a start to a custom solution to the wires. Keep in mind I absolutely HATE bungee cords with hooks, but use them if I have to. https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=132794

It's messy looking in the picture because I had to rinse and dry off the shrouds, etc. However, I found that I can get my entire forestay, with roller furler etc. into the big zippered pocket of a bag and the jib halyard into the other zippered pocket, then just clip it around the mast. I don't like that these are closed, not breathable fabrics, so I made one meshed, zippered pocket that you can rinse through and then let dry without removing the shrouds. The difference is about 15-20 minutes versus stringing the cables through the wings and bungee cording them. Also much neater (though you wouldn't know it from the picture).

WIre management seems to be one of the biggest time-eaters for me now...

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

If I am trailering with rudders, which is a no no, I can do my Hobie 16 and my Gcat 5.7 both in under 30. Mast up, sails up and go. I have spent 6 hours rigging\assembling a Supercat 20 and I wish to never do it again. I have mast up storage for my 16 and if I have the roller furling setup I am probably out of the car and on the water in 10, it is awesome

I just coil my shrouds, forestay & trap wires and then bungee tie them to the hiking straps. I keep the trap wires in a different coil than the shrouds so it is easier to separate everything.

On the Blade, I pull the rudders off while trailering. I don't know maybe because they are so light, it is two pins and two clips. They may add another 5 mins at the most.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

ctcataman

Quote

To manage the standing rigging I have a couple tubes

This is genius!!!!

The wire management is my biggest nemesis. Is this rubber tube? Is it split? Where along mast do you put it?

This kind, just because I had some. I don't remember the diameter, I said 10mm but maybe it's less. I made a straight cut along to put the wires inside. It is rigid enough so that the wires stay there and it produces a good curve. I install it before lowering the mast just above the shroud adjuster, then when the mast is in position on the trailer I slide it towards the mast support where I tie it. It doesn't touch the support but gets very close. For a long trip I would secure a bit more to make sure that the wires don't come out of the tube. The forestay is easy to roll and put on the tramp pocket, no need to put it with the rest.
For short distance each tube is tied with a clove hitch knot, with the same line going through an eyebolt at the mast support.



Edited by Andinista on Apr 08, 2020 - 07:47 PM.

How long are the tubes?

Quote

I install it before lowering the mast just above the shroud adjuster

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

ctcataman

How long are the tubes?

Quote

I install it before lowering the mast just above the shroud adjuster

About 30 cm

Thanks, can't wait to try fhis out.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

[quote=Andinista]

ctcataman

Quote

To manage the standing rigging I have a couple tubes

This is genius!!!!

The wire management is my biggest nemesis. Is this rubber tube? Is it split? Where along mast do you put it?

I do see the value if you have a new / shinny mast that you want to protect from dings and scratches by isolating the wire ropes


but I don't understand how adding more hardware is a time saver -


after i lower the mast and push/roll it into it's final spot, and i am still on the tramp i simply make large loops with my side stay's (and trap wires) and use my jibcar outhaul line to tie them up. next time i sail i simply untie this line on each side and set my mast for pinning.

please explain how this is a time saver?

Update, I was not accounting for taking the boat off the trailer in my previous estimate of ~20 minutes and accounting for this probably makes it ~30 min for entire midseason setup.

On a related note, I am getting slower as I used to quickly put the wings on to prevent shroud catches and pop the H17 mast up with muscle in a matter of minutes. I know I'm getting slower because in this lockdown I have now set the boat up and torn it down 3 times the past 2 weeks (I've been trying to optimize everything and set the boat up to accommodate different rapid configurations).

As a followup to a question I posed a few weeks ago about solo mast raising and gin poles and the fact the H17 is rotated 90 degrees for raising:

Yesterday I added an eye strap to the mast 6' up the mast to accommodate dyneema lines strung to forward crossbar (outboard) roughly at mast pivot point ala the Farrier system. (Note dyneema lines don't need to be real tight as the H17 mast is quite different from my 37' carbon F25C mast). I then used my main block (6:1) and after lifting the mast and walking it up to back of boat (still real light at this point) and then used the sheet/blocks to raise the mast the rest of the way. I was very surprised the dyneema lines by themselves prevented mast rotation (if raised with forestay, mast tries to rotate back to 0 degrees since forestay is rotated 90 degrees).

After seeing how well this worked I believe I can rig an extension to the forward mast support so that I can winch the mast up entirely. I have a spare section of windsurf mast but I may go with a galvanized trailer section pipe and I figured trailer U-bolts and through bolts to hold it to mast support and a pulley at the top.

I know I'm probably recreating one of the Hobie Mast Stepper configurations but right now its been done with 1 eye strap, 2 rivets + watertight housing and some extra dyneema I had lying around.

James H17+/F25C+

It has nothing to do with protecting the mast, it is just about saving time in rolling, unrolling and untangling the wires, finding wich side is which, etc. In my experience this takes quite some time and is sort of messy, works against the perception of having everything under control :)
I forgot so say that I leave the shrouds attached to the hulls, that's the most influencial thing. Then I don't have to roll anything (except the forestay but just one wire doesn't hurt), the wire package at each side (shroud and trap wires) is folded in two and tensioned by this tube near mast support. Perhaps not for a 500 miles trip, but its the best I've found for the 5 blocks I have to drive the beach.

I should probably add about trailering with rudders attached.

When I was younger I chased technology for the fastest boat (Bimare F18HT in my recent past) but I now pursue robust ease of use. With this, that Hobie rudder system designed ~50+ years ago while heavy, is a thing of beauty. Midseason trailering, I tie the crossbeam down with line led down through and underneath tramp to forward beam. This locks the crossbar down and forward and I did this for my previous H16, H18 & H18SX without a single problem the past ~40 years. Can this fail... absolutely but I have 3 sets of rudders (and even a fully complete backup H17) so I can take the risk.

James H17+/F25C+

jlooby

I should probably add about trailering with rudders attached.

When I was younger I chased technology for the fastest boat (Bimare F18HT in my recent past) but I now pursue robust ease of use. With this, that Hobie rudder system designed ~50+ years ago while heavy, is a thing of beauty. Midseason trailering, I tie the crossbeam down with line led down through and underneath tramp to forward beam. This locks the crossbar down and forward and I did this for my previous H16, H18 & H18SX without a single problem the past ~40 years. Can this fail... absolutely but I have 3 sets of rudders (and even a fully complete backup H17) so I can take the risk.

James H17+/F25C+

A fail situation to have in mind is branches from bushes, not on the road but when leaving the place or arriving home. I've seen tiller crossbars broken like that.

Quote

it is just about saving time in rolling, unrolling and untangling the wires,

I don't disconnect any wires. I just wrap them into a circle and tie it off to a line that is on my deck already (jib car adjuster line)

there is nothing to untangle .... untie the small knot that holds the loop of wires, slide the mast into stepping position and the wires have fallen inline and are ready for stepping





Edited by MN3 on Apr 09, 2020 - 11:16 AM.

jalex

If I am trailering with rudders, which is a no no, I can do my Hobie 16 and my Gcat 5.7 both in under 30. Mast up, sails up and go. I have spent 6 hours rigging\assembling a Supercat 20 and I wish to never do it again. I have mast up storage for my 16 and if I have the roller furling setup I am probably out of the car and on the water in 10, it is awesome

showoff! :)

I take about 30 minutes solo

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

Thirty minutes? Forty five minutes? There are more techniques to doing this than there are kinds of beach cats. Once you've got your method down you stick with it and make gradual improvements as you learn. One writer stated he gotten to the point where the ease of rigging was getting more important than speed. I understand that because I'm seventy years old and have been sailing beach cats for more than forty years. When rigging a boat I have made a similar dumb mistake twice and those mistakes came partially as a result of getting distracted from the task at hand. I'm sure all of you at one time while rigging your boat have someone come up and start bending your ear with a lot of questions and like me are glad to talk about your boat. Well I forgot to put the line through the mast step/ball on a G-cat 5.7 and when I walked the mast down, it slipped (the boat was on the trailer backwards) and the mast fell on the roof of my new truck putting a nice dent in it. Another time with a Nacra 500 I got distracted and forgot to tie the boat to the trailer and when I walked the mast down the boat (once again on the trailer backwards) shifted on the trailer and I dropped the mast and once again damaged the roof of another new truck. I'm considering a check list.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

https://youtu.be/lz3hbRmy-7w

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

20 or 30 minutes depending on what beverages are being consumed, lol.

I leave everything attached to the mast, shrouds, forestay..etc. it is all coiled up together, no kinks, no tangles. Attache the side stays and raise the mast, I have someone pin the forestay, done. I trailer with rudders in place so, not having to deal with that. I have dragged the boat 4 hours away or 5 minutes away, never had a problem with rudders. Longest part of the whole deal is raising the main which has a tendency to stick a little but that's all.

--
Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
--

I've got the P19 in mast up storage across the street from the ramp. And lately, during the season, I've been leaving the boom on the boat, using the halyard as a topping lift. So that saves a little time. I think I'm around 30 minutes with that setup. Including suiting up with the drysuit and gear, launching at the ramp, and parking the truck, then going back to hoist the main... I think I'm around 45 minutes to an hour.

Here's the thing though... I used to rush through things to "get it over with". But, somehow, I forced myself to enjoy rigging and de-rigging the boat, and take my time. Before the lockdown, I would sometimes try and get a sail in after work in the summer evenings. I would spend an hour getting on the water, sail for 90 minutes to two hours, and spend another hour putting the boat to bed. So a good half my time sailing is rigging and de-rigging. If I considered that a chore, it would make it practically not worth it. I don't have any specific advice on how to make rigging your boat enjoyable. I just managed to do it and make it part of the sailing experience.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Quote

make rigging your boat enjoyable

Great approach. Rushing means mistakes happen.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

Depends on the boat and the distance traveled. 15 minutes to 1.5 hours. If I am sailing local, I leave everything attached and even leave rudders on. I only have to travel 1/2 mile to the ramp. For anything over an hour drive, I pull the rigging and rudders off. I use a 4' ladder to place the mast tip on behind the boat. If it is windy, I will hook a trapeze to an eye on either side of the front beam. This will keep the mast from going side to side. I can still dead lift the mast, so I don't crank it up. I have a line through a block at the base of the mast support with a clip on the forestay and led to a cleat on the front beam. I will lift the mast and as I hold it with one hand (and a shoulder), I pull the slack out of the line to hold the mast forward. Once cleated, I can then relax and attach the forestay to the bow foil. I use dyneema line to adjust the shroud tension. On my Prindle 19, I replaced the shroud tangs with turnbuckles so I can easily tension the rig solo. I will say, if you use turnbuckles; make sure you tighten the lock nuts every time or have some other way to lock the turnbuckle. One regatta, we were sailing upwind and my crew asks about the leeward shroud flopping behind the boat. He was able to grab the shroud, rethread it on the turnbuckle and then get back on the wire. Lesson learned.

For the Tornado, I break it apart. I can have it from trailer to sailing in 1.5 hours rigging it my self.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Quote

For the Tornado, I break it apart. I can have it from trailer to sailing in 1.5 hours rigging it my self.

guessing that since it isn't a sport, that saves a lot of time.... b/c I always estimated that it was an extra hour for setup just because of being broken down.

ctcataman

Wondering how long it takes to go from trailer to sailing for you guys?

Two beers if I'm solo.
One and a half beer if my daughter is helping.
Three beers if anyone else is "helping".

*Subtract one beer if at my club with mast-up storage.
**Add one beer for very high wind...extra time need to 1) keep moving bows back and forth to stay pointed into shifty wind, 2) double-check all the stuff that'll screw you if it fails/fouls once on the water, and 3) build courage.

(Time means nothing unless I'm racing....I leave the watch at home and bring plenty of beer.)

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
--

wlrottge

Quote

For the Tornado, I break it apart. I can have it from trailer to sailing in 1.5 hours rigging it my self.

guessing that since it isn't a sport, that saves a lot of time.... b/c I always estimated that it was an extra hour for setup just because of being broken down.

It's a classic T. Luckily I can store it indoors, otherwise I would have it on a tilt trailer with a full boat cover.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

83 H18. it was 45min from parking to floating loaded ready to go. new/used wings will add a new learning curve.
45 min to tear down and trailer up.

--
1978 H18
1983 H18 (some of it)
--

Today did some active water social distancing. 70 minutes parking lot to water, fussing with jib for 20 of that. 45 minutes to break down, but sloppy. Lightning and in a hurry. GREAT sail, but really, really busy on the water. Scared the kids with the speed today-they loved it. Awesome. Everyone was all proper and protective at ramp. I think my most appropriate time will be around 45. I'm good with that.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

Quote

I think my most appropriate time will be around 45

45 seems like a good target.

How do you raise the mast on your 21?

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

charlescarlis

Today did some active water social distancing. 70 minutes parking lot to water, fussing with jib for 20 of that. 45 minutes to break down, but sloppy. Lightning and in a hurry. GREAT sail, but really, really busy on the water. Scared the kids with the speed today-they loved it. Awesome. Everyone was all proper and protective at ramp. I think my most appropriate time will be around 45. I'm good with that.

I saw your pictures, you planning on making it out for wednesday night races? Ill be out with me as well at texastuma and possibly a nacra 5.8. where did you launch from?

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

I want to make it out Wednesdays...got several friends out there often enough. This Wednesday, however I have a 50th "drive-by-birthday party" to do for a close friend.

This time I launched at Clear Lake Shores at the invitation of a co-worker who sails also.

I use a gin pole permanently attached to my trailer, which makes set-up a breeze and I CAN do it by myself, however 2 people are more comfortable. The trick was making it so that all hinge points are in-line so no loosening/tightening of lines is needed and is largely a one person affair. I also use a winch with an auto-brake ($75) - which makes it a LOT safer/more comfortable. If I slip or need to stop and adjust something, it is rated to hold the load in-place. I don't trust that it will, but it does.

Here's a pic at the dock; you can see most of it and how I made it so that the trap wires hinge in line with the mast/dolphin striker ball and joint.





Edited by charlescarlis on Apr 28, 2020 - 09:50 AM.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

I'll get more pics this evening. That one doesn't show much...

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

charlescarlis

I want to make it out Wednesdays...got several friends out there often enough. This Wednesday, however I have a 50th "drive-by-birthday party" to do for a close friend.

This time I launched at Clear Lake Shores at the invitation of a co-worker who sails also.

I use a gin pole permanently attached to my trailer, which makes set-up a breeze and I CAN do it by myself, however 2 people are more comfortable. The trick was making it so that all hinge points are in-line so no loosening/tightening of lines is needed and is largely a one person affair. I also use a winch with an auto-brake ($75) - which makes it a LOT safer/more comfortable. If I slip or need to stop and adjust something, it is rated to hold the load in-place. I don't trust that it will, but it does.

Here's a pic at the dock; you can see most of it and how I made it so that the trap wires hinge in line with the mast/dolphin striker ball and joint.

Edited by charlescarlis on Apr 28, 2020 - 09:50 AM.

I'll be using cls with texastuma on Wednesday nights so more to help set up

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

Very cool. Yes, I'll be there. Funny, I grew up here, worked at Kemah Hardware delivering marine lumber and pilings, etc. and only now as I'm older learning to really love this sport. That was back when there was a draw bridge there. Now they're tearing down the bridge I delivered supplies to when it was being built....

Looking forward to meeting, learning and getting involved. Understand races should start back up next week or the week after.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

charlescarlis

Today did some active water social distancing. 70 minutes parking lot to water, fussing with jib for 20 of that. 45 minutes to break down, but sloppy. Lightning and in a hurry. GREAT sail, but really, really busy on the water. Scared the kids with the speed today-they loved it. Awesome. Everyone was all proper and protective at ramp. I think my most appropriate time will be around 45. I'm good with that.

I heard y'all had quite the experience.. especially watching the powerboats scurry...

I'm looking to set up a sail day/tuning session at TCD (if it's open) June 6th. Hopefully you can make it.

I'll be racing WNR on Clear Lake from the ramp - FYI.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Quote

I use a gin pole permanently attached to my traile

Now that is cool! Do you have pictures of the full set up on the site?

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

I'll do pics as soon as the weather breaks here. Probably take off Friday and sail off the Dike. That'll give me the opportunity to document it as I'll have more time. Doing it all over, I would not have made my gin pole supports out of cable - I would have just built a triangle and used 2 hinges. The bumper-stops (2 keel stops) place the cat perfectly every time for the gin pole - no thinking.

I'll be there on the 6th - no doubt. And, yup - WNR - looking forward to it.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

WNR was nicely attended, but only saw a couple of cats - couldn't tell who/what they were. Will get some experience and then play...



Edited by charlescarlis on May 07, 2020 - 01:37 PM.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--