Hello I am 16 years old and I race lasers and c-420’s competitively. I was thinking of getting into sailing cats (not for racing just for fun) I was looking on Craigslist and found a good looking super cat 19 for $1500. I would be sailing with some friends. Is this boat to powerful for a cat learner (combined weight in the boat would typically be around 300 lbs) here’s the link, https://madison.craigslist.org/boa/d/edgerton-19-supercat-catamaran-sailboat/7024992556.html



Edited by the420sailor on Dec 09, 2019 - 11:11 PM.

the biggest issue you will have with this boat is stepping and lowering the mast
they are very very heavy. there is little or no way you can do this solo

300 lbs is fine for light air but this boat is a beast in med-heavy air

I would not put this on the top of the list for a new cat sailor
esp not for younger sailors

don't get me wrong. it is duable but this is a big/ heavy cat

i would probably recommend a 16' cat for a young / new sailor -ymmv

I don't understand the stock response of 'stepping and lowering' the mast. If the boat is on a trailer with a sturdy mast stand, add a winch and gin pole (or removable rear mast stand) and this should not be an issue. I raise my Tiger mast solo and my buddy does his 6.0. Although much lighter, my F16 is a bit trickier as it has to go up "backwards" due to the wing mast. Still do it solo and I am OLD.

As for the boat, getting it in and out of the water would be a consideration due to weight. If you don't have to cattrax it in up or down a hill by yourself, not an issue. Powerful sure but that means it would be fun! Last part of that is you need to be able to right it after you go over. 16, experienced sailor, friends .... you will go over.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Quote

I don't understand the stock response of 'stepping and lowering' the mast. If the boat is on a trailer with a sturdy mast stand, add a winch and gin pole (or removable rear mast stand) and this should not be an issue.

Adding a gin pole doubles your rigging and break down time. most don't use one for that reason alone. plus they add a $200 to the cost of the boat, and they are a pita to get dialed in. they are actually very frustrating to use until dialed in. They also prohibit you from trailering your boat sterns facing the car - which is the biggest aid to reducing rigging time and solo stepping

"(or removable rear mast stand) " - good luck stepping this beast of a mast with just a stand

ever step a supercat mast? they are extremely heavy compared to most others beach cats and 2 of the 3 versions are 33'

The first thing I want to say is "Dude, you're killing me". I just bought a 19 for $2200 and passed through Madison to get it from New York! Also, mine only came with the original sails and no tube on the trailer, so this looks like a great deal. If yours had been for sale a couple of months ago I would have snagged it in a heartbeat.

I'm just about as far into the weeds with this one as are you, but I have the advantage of almost 40 years of cat sailing behind me. Everybody talks a lot about how heavy the mast is; I'll have to wait until spring to step it for the first time and find out if it's harder than the H18's to raise. If so, it's gin pole and winch time, no big deal. As far as holding it down (I'm 200lb.), I expect a challenge solo, but with 300lb. a couple of experienced sailors (even if that experience isn't on cats) should be alright. But I expect we're both going to be in for some wild rides, from all accounts.

You also have the advantage of being dead close to the Supercats' home - Aquarius Sail in Wyoming MN. I made a point of dropping in en route home for a visit with Tom, and he's really a great guy.

Should you get it? If you're like me and like getting in a little over your head, hell yes.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

I have also recently got interested in beach cats. But I have a much different background than you. So here are some random thoughts on what I have learned since I got my Prindle 18-2,

I was able to raise my mast with one friend; but it was a lot bigger job than I expected. After some research using google I am working on a system to allow solo mast raising. While it is definitely possible to do it alone it requires a well designed system to do it along with a capable person doing it.

Which raised the question 'how/where will you be storing the boat and how often will you have to raise the mast; and will you have any help doing it'. The guy I bought the Prindle from kept it stored mast up near a ramp at a sailing club and it was a no brainer to launch it; as long as the person doing it could back up a trailer. On the other hand if you have to drive to an unfriendly launch site every time you sail and do everything alone that can be a problem.

Another thing to consider is the trailer. I basically had to scrap the trailer than came with mine and build a new one with some of the parts from it. Once I did that it was trivial to get the Prindle on and off the trailer; something that was quite hard with the original trailer; not to mention I am not convinced the original trailer was that roadworthy.

As mentioned earlier there are lots of cats/trailers that a single person can easily raise the mast and launch; not to mention sail solo or another person with ease. Don't take this to mean I am trying to talk you out of this boat. Even with little cat experience I suspect once in the water your previous sailing experience would allow you to sail the Super Cat. The thing is if you are going to get in trouble with beach cats all of them will flip if you push them too hard. Sure the Super Cat will flip easier than some of the more docile ones but don't expect any of the not to flip.

While I don't know all the details I suspect your parents will be somewhat involved with using their vehicles to tow any cat you buy; not to mention at 16 there may be legal issues with you buying a boat in your name. Again not insurmountable problems but they are things you will need to deal with.

While my experience has been with bigger boats conventional wisdom is that if someone asks a question 'should I buy this boat?' the answer is no; because the person needs to have enough knowledge to answer the question themselves. The thing is while this may, or may not, be a great deal there are always lots of boats for sale and good deals keep coming up. I suggest you look around the local beach cat scene, get to know folks there, and get up to speed that way. Not to mention that winter is upon us and I am not sure how much sailing you will be doing in your neck of the woods for the next few months.

ok...from experience... 1st-you NEED a catamaran. Just awesome fun. That is, if its truly affordable for you.

My first is a beast-21SE. However, I knew I'd be in for figuring out how to engineer the handling of the extra weight, mast etc. Its Doable, however is more of a pain and more dangerous when it comes to rigging the gin pole and raising the 33 foot mast. I mean, its kind of hairy the thought of it dropping. Its heavy and hard to maneuver by hand to the point of impossible.

Do fun and kicking around, an 18 footer would do nicely and be way more manageable. Prindles would be on my short list as well: Like a 16. Not as much a fan of the hobie 14/16s, due to their potential to pitch pole and not carry much weight. But you and a friend or 2 would work and their super easy to handle on shore. Go a little lighter and you'll use it more and have more fun.

I absolutely LOVE my 21, but its a whole different world of weight and size management. Takes more time you would rather be sailing also.

Good luck and let us know what you do.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

Oh, I think the "if you're asking the question the answer is no" is a bit dismissive. I ask lots of questions that could go either way because I'm honestly looking for informed opinions in order to make the best choice.

First, I think we're all in agreement that the SC19 will be a real handful as a first cat. Like, no joke. As I said above, I've been doing this for a while, and I'm not at all certain I'll be able to handle it. But I've thought that before and found my way.

All this talk of masts and trailers and legality, though, is putting the cart before the horse. Do you want to get out there and kick ass? Because this is, from what I can tell, a boat to do it with (and that's why I bought one). You aren't going to know whether you have the chops, the weight, the desire, and the determination to do it until you try - while, of course, taking all reasonable safety precautions. Assuming you're not being unduly reckless, you're going to find out pretty quickly whether it's too much boat for you, and if it is you'll have a data point from which to trade down to something more manageable, assuming you still think cats are what you want to sail. If, after giving it a fair shot, you sell it in favour of something a little more modest, I'm certain you're not going to lose any money.

But please don't base a decision on or be deterred by incidental matters like bureaucracy, trailers, and mast stepping. They may be necessary, but they're not the sailing. If you love (and can handle) the ride, you'll figure out how to deal with that stuff.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 09, 2019 - 11:36 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Go for it! Don't listen to those who are afraid of a challenge. I have been sailing beach cats since 1975 and I am now 75 years old and still sail. Some sailors get stuck on smaller cats and are missing out on some great sailing. A good sailor will know how to use all that power and how to depower when necessary. I have always found that the larger cats are truly more forgiving. When you are flying by all those other boats with that big smile you will know you made the right decision.

My friend and I rig a Supercat 20 tall rig without a gin pole or mast support, I probably won't want to do it every weekend for the next decade but at the moment it is not horrible.

Not sure how many cats are in your area. If there is not a lot and the boat is in good shape, its a no brainer.

I do worry about parts, there is not a big used market and new is expensive. Certain things are not boat specific but the things that are are either hard to find or pricey. Not alot of used sails either and new will be expensive

I wouldn't worry about it being to much boat, you have some sailing experience and it is a boat you will not out grow. I know people that started with no sailing experience on a Prindle 19 and they didn't even blink and that is not a beginner boat by any means

Let us know how it goes

Get the boat.

Hell ya, buy it & sail it. Get a couple of strong friends to help the first times, til you figure things out. Sail in light to moderate winds to get the feel. Get a big righting bag, flip the boat near shore,(with some help handy), & find out what it takes to right.
If you sail Lasers competitively, you must be in decent shape, & know a bit about sailing.
My first cat was a Nacra 5.7, a hair under 19’. Great fun, & could be solo righted with a bag.
I also singled handed my Mystere 6.0XL, (20’), with a tramp launched spin. That thing was huge fun/fast, but, I couldn’t right it solo. That took the fun out, as I solo most of the time, there is often no other boats around & couldn’t get full power with only my 175lb.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

the420sailor

Hello I am 16 years old and I race lasers and c-420’s competitively. I was thinking of getting into sailing cats (not for racing just for fun) I was looking on Craigslist and found a good looking super cat 19 for $1500. I would be sailing with some friends. Is this boat to powerful for a cat learner (combined weight in the boat would typically be around 300 lbs) here’s the link, https://madison.craigslist.org/boa/d/edgerton-19-supercat-catamaran-sailboat/7024992556.htmlEdited by the420sailor on Dec 09, 2019 - 11:11 PM.

I applaud you in wanting to step up.. I have two friends that have/had a Supercat 19. I had raced with my dad for 15 years before I got my first catamaran. At 16, I got a Nacra 5.8. I never had an issue with raising the mast. I was 195# so I didn't have an issue with strength. But, I hand raise and lower a Prindle 18-2 mast and a classic Tornado mast. There are ways to assist in raising and lowering easily. I use a 6' ladder for the mast tip. I take the trap lines and connect them to the front beam outside end to keep the mast from swaying side to side. You can make a pivot strut for the base of the mast to make the load easier (similar to F-Boats set up). I have designed many mast raising set-up for keel boats and catamarans. I don't believe lack of strength is any excuse.. get more clever in systems to work around that. I think after a few times on the water, you will find a way to keep the boat rigged where you can go out any time.. Once you go cat, you don't go back... PM me if you have further questions.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

If you haven't yet, look at the "photo albums" section here. There is a Supercat section which includes rigging manuals. These boats were all designed with Highfield levers for extending the shrouds to enable solo righting without the need for extra tricks like bags. I may also have some stuff that hasn't yet been uploaded. As with the other guys, feel free to PM me.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

These boats were all designed with Highfield levers for extending the shrouds to enable solo righting without the need for extra tricks like bags

I have sailed supercat 19's several times and a few times we capsized
even with extenders - 2 of us were not able to right it - we needed a 3rd person


i have sailed next to a very good skipper who capsized sc17's with extenders that the owner was not able to solo right and i had to anchor up and help

it is much more about experience and technique - the bigger and heavier the boat the more of both you need to safely sail

it's not as much about beach handling as it is about when things go bad on the water
I have seen this boat pummel the owner in pop up storms



Edited by MN3 on Dec 10, 2019 - 10:42 AM.

Seems like a lot of boat to get started on, but definitely doable, especially with some initial help from someone experienced with the boat. Is mast up storage an option? I find my Prindle 19 mast to be too heavy for solo stepping, given my Don Knotts physique. And I've playing around with gin poles, but the loads scare me. I'm always afraid something is going to explode at any moment. I pay $84 a month for mast up storage, and only deal with the mast for annual inspection, or on the rare occasion I tow the boat to a different venue. And using a Soloright righting pole, I can right the boat solo. I'd never take a boat out solo without knowing I could right it
solo, or with crew knowing I could right it with crew.

Also, is this really that exceptional of a deal? I'm seeing what I first thought were exceptional deals out here in Kali. Sub $2000 prices for P19s, Nacra 5.8s, etc. So many that I don't think they are exceptional any more. Our boats are just getting cheap. I've got a Nacra 5.2 I picked up for $400, but I would have to put about $2000+ into it before it is sailable, and I don't think I'd get that for the boat.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

I would suggest that you wait until spring when 'boats for sale' are plenty. To get that good deal, you need cash in hand and be ready to buy. Don't be afraid to look outside your immediate area. An easy weekend trip could net you the difference between a good deal and a great one. Buy one that can get on the water immediately. Fixer uppers can be frustrating and more costly than originally estimated.

Last suggestion ... buy yourself a spinnaker boat. Young sailor with friends and a spinnaker boat is a recipe for fun!! Find your self an older F18 that may be a little tired but everything functional. It is something you can grow into and won't need to sell it after the first summer because you are bored.

As for the rest of it, a clever system can get you on the water solo without issue. I rig my Tiger solo all three sails (jib stays on the furler and rudders stay on the boat) in just under 1 hr. Two coordinated sailors could cut that time almost in half. Enjoy the cat sailing.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

dssaak

I would suggest that you wait until spring when 'boats for sale' are plenty. To get that good deal, you need cash in hand and be ready to buy. Don't be afraid to look outside your immediate area. An easy weekend trip could net you the difference between a good deal and a great one. Buy one that can get on the water immediately. Fixer uppers can be frustrating and more costly than originally estimated.

Last suggestion ... buy yourself a spinnaker boat. Young sailor with friends and a spinnaker boat is a recipe for fun!! Find your self an older F18 that may be a little tired but everything functional. It is something you can grow into and won't need to sell it after the first summer because you are bored.

As for the rest of it, a clever system can get you on the water solo without issue. I rig my Tiger solo all three sails (jib stays on the furler and rudders stay on the boat) in just under 1 hr. Two coordinated sailors could cut that time almost in half. Enjoy the cat sailing.

The Supercat 19 would be a great spin boat. It is very simple to add a chute. I had chutes on my Nacra 5.8s, Prindle 19, Tornado (original classic), Nacra 5.0.

Don't buy into the thought that you have to have a F18 to have a spin boat. Go with your budget. A stock boat will keep you going for years. I have been running spins on cats since '90 and my current modified 18-2 is main and jib and in breeze I can pace with F18s.

More importantly, Keep It Simple.... I know several guys getting out of F18s and going to H-16s and H-18s because they can get on the water faster and have more sail time.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Quote

And I've playing around with gin poles, but the loads scare me. I'm always afraid something is going to explode at any moment.

+1
the loads are very high - i never enjoy being around gin poles in use

Quote

More importantly, Keep It Simple

+1
many sailors (esp cat sailors) get in over their head and lose interest in the sport entirely

IMHO - start out with an easy to sail boat, then upgrade to one with more controls and complexity as your skills and desire to sail faster grows



Edited by MN3 on Dec 11, 2019 - 10:30 AM.

Skip the gin pole and use a 6' step ladder if you are worried. It will raise the mast to an angle that you can crank up the mast straight from the mast stand winch; simple.

I didn't say a spinnaker boat had to be an F18. However, the class has been around long enough that you can find 'tired' but functional boats for a decent price. Most of them will come with and are engineered to fly main, jib and spinnaker. You worry about gin pole loads. I worry about loads on boats that weren't designed to carry "add on" equipment.

Skip the starter boat! I often sail my Tiger solo and not rig the spinnaker. Since the jib is on a furler, that makes it even easier or I just leave it rolled up. I have yet to rig the jib on my F16 and main/spinnaker configuration is why I bought the boat. My F16 main alone has the same number of lines as my Hobie 14. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

All that said, if you have the funds, a multiple boat program works the best.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Go for it. Big cats are fun cats!!! Be smart and bring hefty buddies.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

Growing up around the water, I have NO idea why I didn't get a catamaran earlier. The big ones are more "serious" because of the weights, power and potential energy...for something to go wrong. Or go fast. You have to have that disciplined mind set, where with a 16 to even 18 footer you can jack around and not get into too much trouble...in theory. But, if you develop good play-by-play set up and execution, you can handle the 19. Just WAY less room for error. Harder to find parts, repair etc. When you need to.

Gonna use racing discipline? You're good and will have a blast.
Gonna get stoned and screw around on the lake? You're screwed.

You sound like you're in that first class of person, however. We all want to know how this comes out because we want others to know the blast it is to sail beach cats...especially the younger gen.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

dssaak

Skip the gin pole and use a 6' step ladder if you are worried. It will raise the mast to an angle that you can crank up the mast straight from the mast stand winch; simple.

You worry about gin pole loads. I worry about loads on boats that weren't designed to carry "add on" equipment.

A stepladder? We don't all have a house and workshop on the shore. I don't have "home" water, and instead trailer from lake to lake behind a Subaru Outback. Where the hell am I going to carry a stepladder? The roof is already occupied with a box for sailing/camping gear and a kayak rack. Be realistic.

You haven't elaborated on your concern about "gin pole loads". I don't know yet how it's going to be to raise my SC19's mast, but in the unlikely event I find it to be too much, a gin pole will be the next thing I try. If for some reason you think that's an unsafe practice, don't toss around canards. Tell us what makes you nervous.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 12, 2019 - 01:13 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

A stepladder? We don't all have a house and workshop on the shore. I don't have "home" water, and instead trailer from lake to lake behind a Subaru Outback. Where the hell am I going to carry a stepladder? The roof is already occupied with a box for sailing/camping gear and a kayak rack. Be realistic.

Seems a little dramatic. A ladder easily fits below a cat on the trailer, even with a sail tube, or on top of the tramp where it is in a perfect position to be used for its intended purpose when needed. It weighs almost nothing and holds up to the elements. I know several of us do it. I double deckered 2 cats, with 2 sets of sails, spare parts, beach wheels and 4 guys weeks worth of camping gear in a Honda CRV and the ladder was not an inconvenience.

If you have another system that’s great but I assure you hauling a ladder is not the monstrosity you make it.

I will say using the existing mast support on the trailer can work just as well, especially if you haul your boat bows facing backwards

It wasn't me who had the concern about gin pole use. My friend uses one to raise the mast on his H21 and it is a beast (can pretty much do it by himself with the pole). I use one on my F-24 and the system has been around for nearly two decades. No issues at all.

As for the step ladder, jalex is correct. It is light enough to go anywhere. That said, for my F16, I am going to install a removable rear support in lieu of the ladder. I have had the mast up and down enough now to know the minimum angle needed to use the mast stand/winch to raise it solo with no sweat.

Question, with the boat facing backwards, what is used to crank up the mast?

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

I don’t crank it, I just use the ladder or support to get it at enough of an angle I’m not dead lifting it off the tramp. A little different from what the rest of you are discussing, but still applies getting the mast started at an angle

jalex

I don’t crank it, I just use the ladder or support to get it at enough of an angle I’m not dead lifting it off the tramp. A little different from what the rest of you are discussing, but still applies getting the mast started at an angle

exactly why i trailer "backwards"
i can use the mast yoke to hold the pinned mast at a favorable angle so i can get under it and lift
works on a moderately heavy mast

still would not be enough for me to attempt a solo mast raising of ANY supercat mast. they are build like a tree

jalex

Seems a little dramatic. A ladder easily fits below a cat on the trailer, even with a sail tube, or on top of the tramp where it is in a perfect position to be used for its intended purpose when needed. It weighs almost nothing and holds up to the elements. I know several of us do it. I double deckered 2 cats, with 2 sets of sails, spare parts, beach wheels and 4 guys weeks worth of camping gear in a Honda CRV and the ladder was not an inconvenience.

If you have another system that’s great but I assure you hauling a ladder is not the monstrosity you make it.

For us it's a family of four (three women!) plus kit, so we're pretty jammed for space. The 19 came without any on-trailer storage, and a tube (which I've used in the past) isn't going to cut it because this thing's boards are HUGE (and that's before I decide whether I'm going to trailer rudders-on or -off) so I'm going to have to come up with a 10' long box. The ladder's weight is immaterial - it's the overall volume it displaces, which is disproportionately large... and awkward... and clattery. So that's a nonstarter.

Quote

I will say using the existing mast support on the trailer can work just as well, especially if you haul your boat bows facing backwards

Geometrically speaking, I don't follow you.

[edit]

Oh, I get it. By trailering backwards the (tongue-mounted) mast stand already has it up at 20 degrees or something so it's not a dead lift.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 12, 2019 - 04:23 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

The big hairy problem is dropping a mast. Was next to a new guy when he dropped his H16 mast and THAT was dramatic. I couldn't imagine what bad would happen if I lost a trap wire or other stabilizing cable during a lift...it would be the ruin of the mast and some kind of a dangerous impact. It's why I steadfastly refuse to lift with anyone (or anything like another car) in a radius at LEAST the height of the mast. I've politely asked people to move at the beach and/or warn parents with kids. They've always been very appreciative, interested and comply for those 2 minutes during which the operation proceeds. I also inform my crew to back out fast and "let it drop" if anything goes wrong.

I do a lot with crane rigging safety and asked a ton of questions at the outset about making a gin pole. Didn't get a ton of answers, but guys here were/are helpful enough. The big hairy deal here is, if you don't get the pulling angles right, you can have a catastrophic incident and easily pull apart a cable, etc., which might drop the mast. Again, BAD. That's what makes light masts/smaller boats so inviting-ease/have more fun sooner, with less trouble. BUT if you want to carry a family, then you need buoyancy = bigger boat.

HOWEVER, there are ways to skin this cat (see how I worked that in?). I ended up doing a modification between the A-frame permanently mounted on the trailer and the standard gin pole. I built a square bracket, that the boat slides up against, with a gin pole mounter to a hinge on the bracket. This bracket is in line with the ball, at the same level. I have ropes on either side to stabilize the gin pole. They stay on and double as hold downs for the mast. Now, the boat is always perfectly aligned, the gin pole is always on the trailer and I can step the mast in the same time or maybe even slightly faster than my buddy can his H16. It's just pull backwards, rotate into position, pin the mast base and crank it up. The forestay stays attached to the mast from the last time I sailed as letting it down is the reverse operation. I can do it solo, but don't. I also use a ladder (no offense), it's for ease. I got a bow roller, mounted it in a 6 inch PVC pipe and strap that to the ladder to make propping the mast a little easier, can control it and move it a bit. Doesn't work as well as I'd hoped. I'll get pics this weekend of the setup and upload them.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

Ah, got the backward thing. Do you hook up stays to stabilize side to side?

My F16 mast is so light, I will give that a try in the spring. As for my Tiger to do it solo, I think I would still go forward, hook up trapeze wires to stabilize side to side and crank it up using the mast stand winch.

I do understand all the extra precautions for an H21 mast. It is a beast. My friend does an A frame, gin pole stabilized thingy set up on his and it is all worth the peace of mind.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

I do it very similar to how Matt Miller shows in this video:
https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19910

I use the trap wires to stabilize, HOWEVER you must watch the tension or else this happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfoaiiBA0M

At around 15:00 to 16:00 in video, they bust a trap wire. The mast on A H21SE is on a curved cross bar, like a 17 or 18, therefore when you raise it, it pulls on the trap lines way more than on a straight crossbar. You have to get all the rotation points on the same plane or have a way to adjust lines looser when you raise and tighter when you lower. Those guys looked like they had a tough time of it in the middle of a crowd, but saved it. There are a lot of learning points in that second video. Very valuable lessons.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

First, get the SC19! It's a great boat! Inspect the standing rigging closely. Consider replacing all of it.
I've sailed with 3 SC19 owners. They all liked the reverse cowgirl trailering position. One guy used a gin pole with the block and tackle hitched to whatever fixed point he could find at the ramp. The other two went with the Iwo Jima walk up with a person out front on belay with a line on the forstay. All three used the trap wires secured to the ends of the front crossbar to arrest the sway. In all cases it was on the trailer in the ramp parking lot.
I sail an SC15. Also a great boat. I trail bows forward. I have a rear mast support that holds the mast about 3 feet off the stern crossbar when stored. Pinned to the step the masthead is about 8 feet off the ground. The front mast support telescopes up to about 10 feet off the ground. I run the winch strap over a bow roller at the top and rig a line to the masthead. I also use the trap wires to stop the sway. I hook them to the tie down straps on the front trailer crossbar.
I rig up and down single handed. An extra hand doesn't hurt though.
I got tired of having boat gear in the van and tied on the tramp so I built a box that holds it all and mounted it on the trailer tongue between the bows. I can open the lid with the boat on the trailer. It did up the tongue weight a bit. I had to move the axle forward.
Good luck with the SC19
GH
ps: I failed to mention, TIE DOWN THE STERN!
also I found it easier to attach/dis attach the two points of the forstay bridle at waist level as opposed to trying to connect the forstay to the bridle over head.
Oh yeah, mast rotation! Don't let the mast rotate when you are letting it down. I wrap the halyard around the mast in both directions to hold it dead for and aft when lowering.



Edited by gahamby on Dec 13, 2019 - 12:13 PM.

--
'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
--

charlescarlis

I use the trap wires to stabilize, HOWEVER you must watch the tension or else this happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfoaiiBA0M

At around 15:00 to 16:00 in video, they bust a trap wire. The mast on A H21SE is on a curved cross bar, like a 17 or 18, therefore when you raise it, it pulls on the trap lines way more than on a straight crossbar. You have to get all the rotation points on the same plane or have a way to adjust lines looser when you raise and tighter when you lower. Those guys looked like they had a tough time of it in the middle of a crowd, but saved it. There are a lot of learning points in that second video. Very valuable lessons.

I think it's pretty obvious that if you're paying attention to what you're doing instead of trying to be BeachScorcese, you can catch a problem like this before it happens.

We're getting off on a bit of a mast-stepping tangent here, but I'll add .25 . The situation with my H18 at the family cottage on Lake Muskoka is somewhat unique in that the only way into the water is through the woods and with a rather nasty drop, so I was forced to figure out how to raise the mast with the boat on the water. This sounds easy - until you try it and find that the boat bounces a lot while you're lifting (from the tramp), and that the first victim is the hinge casting. The solution was to point the boat at the boathouse dock, brace the bows against a couple of those big rubber trailer bow bumpers, and raise the mast with a winch on the boathouse. The winch was mounted up high enough that I didn't need a gin pole - just standing in the water and lifting the mast that first couple of feet was adequate. And I did the trap-lines-to-crossbeam thing - loosening them as it went up so as not to do the above-described stupid. That was easy enough, but followed by a very fiddly operation to bring together the forestay and furler with a small, high-ratio block and tackle. But it worked every time.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

gahamby

I've sailed with 3 SC19 owners. They all liked the reverse cowgirl trailering position.

That statement is both weird and funny.

Quote

I sail an SC15. Also a great boat. I trail bows forward. I have a rear mast support that holds the mast about 3 feet off the stern crossbar when stored. Pinned to the step the masthead is about 8 feet off the ground. The front mast support telescopes up to about 10 feet off the ground. I run the winch strap over a bow roller at the top and rig a line to the masthead.

I think I follow, if by "front mast support" you mean "gin pole". The only part I don't get is how you get the winch line off the mast head after it's up.

Quote

also I found it easier to attach/dis attach the two points of the forstay bridle at waist level as opposed to trying to connect the forstay to the bridle over head.

Oh - that's cool. Funny I never considered it. Not just easier wrt height, but potentially less complicated than the common bridle-apex/furler/chainplate combination (e.g. H18).



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 13, 2019 - 10:35 AM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

Geometrically speaking, I don't follow you.

[edit]

Oh, I get it. By trailering backwards the (tongue-mounted) mast stand already has it up at 20 degrees or something so it's not a dead lift.

Bingo

Quote

I use the trap wires to stabilize, HOWEVER you must watch the tension or else this happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfoaiiBA0M

Yup, that is me coming over to help (be a 3rd person)

this issue is the loads get very high, any stay that is close to failure will be tested
gin poles are reliable and have been used for years but they are a pain to dial in, if you have curved beams they require on the fly adjustments of the guy lines and don't really solve all the issues (still need to be able to pin the forestay to the bridal - my ez mast gin pole didn't solve that last issue

in the end - for me the amount of time getting the jin pole rigged, the extra time it took to adjust the guy lines and the high loads are a bit freaky - in the end i just asked someone to pull on a safetly line from the front while i was on tramp

I have a 6'-0" front mast support that I rigged a telescoping extension into. This makes the angle of the lift line deep enough to lift the mast. It's like a static gin pole. The line from the masthead to the winch strap is a mast length bridle that I hook to the Aussie ring and haul up the mast with the main halyard. I use a sail track slug to keep it tight to the mast. I have to rig a trip line to the ring to pop it off the hook and haul it back down. The long bridle goes around and over all the standing rigging and hooks to the winch strap.

--
'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
--

charlescarlis

Gonna use racing discipline? You're good and will have a blast.
Gonna get stoned and screw around on the lake? You're screwed.

I'm sorry, but I just can't let this false dichotomy slide. I understand what you're getting at, but there's a wide spectrum between. "Racing discipline" includes obsessive, anal-retentive tuning in order to win a race when the wind has dropped to 0.1 kt and arguing in protest committees when the wind is up. Not my idea of "good", only part of why I lost my taste for racing at an early age, and the hell with it. At the other end, "get[ting] stoned and screw[ing] around" is the kind of abject stupidity that often results in its practitioners ultimately assuming water temperature.

Personally, I'm one of those guys somewhere in the middle who just wants to get out there and hammer nails in challenging places and conditions and come back under my own steam in the right number of pieces.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 13, 2019 - 06:59 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

jonathan162

dssaak

Skip the gin pole and use a 6' step ladder if you are worried. It will raise the mast to an angle that you can crank up the mast straight from the mast stand winch; simple.

You worry about gin pole loads. I worry about loads on boats that weren't designed to carry "add on" equipment.

A stepladder? We don't all have a house and workshop on the shore. I don't have "home" water, and instead trailer from lake to lake behind a Subaru Outback. Where the hell am I going to carry a stepladder? The roof is already occupied with a box for sailing/camping gear and a kayak rack. Be realistic.

You haven't elaborated on your concern about "gin pole loads". I don't know yet how it's going to be to raise my SC19's mast, but in the unlikely event I find it to be too much, a gin pole will be the next thing I try. If for some reason you think that's an unsafe practice, don't toss around canards. Tell us what makes you nervous.Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 12, 2019 - 01:13 PM.

ladders are easy to carry and work well exactly as described. lots more people use this for beach cats vs gin poles (in my 20 years of beach cat sailing experience at least)

Gin pole loads - gin poles slowly move the mast from horizontal to vertical and about 70% of that time there are enormous loads on the mast hinge, the gin pole lines, and the trap lines that are used as a stabilizer. at any time ... any weakness in these locations will be tested. if you are solo and cranking on your winch you have no chance of "saving" your mast from crashing down.

MN3

Gin pole loads - gin poles slowly move the mast from horizontal to vertical and about 70% of that time there are enormous loads on the mast hinge, the gin pole lines, and the trap lines that are used as a stabilizer. at any time ... any weakness in these locations will be tested. if you are solo and cranking on your winch you have no chance of "saving" your mast from crashing down.

I'm not looking to beat this to death, but there's no magic in it - this is the stuff of first-year statics.

The mast base is subjected to exactly the loads it was designed for. The trap lines are (unless something has been screwed up) subjected to almost no load at all, since the tension on them only increases if and when the mast goes off lateral center - exactly what they're there to prevent. The gin pole is a member in compression, so any reasonable extrusion will do. About all that leaves is the gin pole lines, so don't undersize them. That's all. Hardly something to be regarded with fear and apprehension.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

Question, with the boat facing backwards, what is used to crank up the mast?

no crank possible in this configuration unless you create a gin pole setup that has a turning block on it so it can redirect under the tramp to the trailer winch (my 6.0 came like this)


boat backwards allows solo person to step but it's still very advantageous to have someone upfront for the connecting the forestay to the bridal/furler or even better to help with the mast stepping via a safety line on the forestay

without that second set of hands you either need a spin halyard tied to the bridal so when the mast is stepped you can secure the mast via the spin halyard until you get down from the tramp and walk to the front to secure the halyard to the bridal

OR
you need to carefully walk off the tramp forward while holding the halyard forestay - this can be sketchy so it's best to make sure you have gravity workin in your favor (bows tilted down a bit)



Edited by MN3 on Dec 13, 2019 - 08:05 PM.

Quote

The mast base is subjected to exactly the loads it was designed for. The trap lines are (unless something has been screwed up) subjected to almost no load at all, since the tension on them only increases if and when the mast goes off lateral center - exactly what they're there to prevent

for sailors, or riggers whom have personally set up and dialed in a gin pole, it's not that crazy of a system if you know what you are doing. and all the gear is sound... and nothing goes wrong ( i help a pro rigger step (and sail) his f31r mast and it is always heart pounding for me)

for me: after sailing a hobie 16 for a few years and upping to an h18 with spreaders .. i got a ez-step system (dreaming of solo stepping/sailing). it took hours to set up and at several times the mast swung out and would have taken out a person or car window with just 2 clicks of the winch. i am surprised the bast base didn't fail. The guy i bought my 5.5 from took out his picture window setting up his supercat 17 gin pole when it swung wildly during set up.

in the video there were 2 adults and several things went wrong, mostly operator error. this is to be expected when people lack experience setting these up. no mast fell, people where around to help (now 3 adults), no big deal

around here LOTS of people get discouraged during and after a series of frustrating issues due to the complexity and overwhelming amount of systems to manage. ... and lack of experience/ knowledge

(these 2 people could have just both jumped on the tramp and both stepped the mast, or one on a line tied to the forestay ... a gin pole was not even needed)

this is a "big boy" boat.
i have been on a few supercats in 20 knots (17's and 19's, both with very experienced skippers). this is a wet Monster in 20 knots. if you don't have it trimmed correctly, you are gonna be in trouble and so will anybody / thing in your way.

------

this is in a thread where a 16 year old lazer/420 sailor (whom i am happy to hear) is asking about moving up into a much higher performance (aka fun) class of boat

i will stand by my initial suggestion
go simple and light .. increase performance as skills, desire and funds allow / push you - ymmv

--



Edited by MN3 on Dec 14, 2019 - 09:36 AM.

MN3

in the video there were 2 adults and several things went wrong, mostly operator error. this is to be expected when people lack experience setting these up. no mast fell, people where around to help (now 3 adults), no big deal

around here LOTS of people get discouraged during and after a series of frustrating issues due to the complexity and overwhelming amount of systems to manage. ... and lack of experience/ knowledge

(these 2 people could have just both jumped on the tramp and both stepped the mast, or one on a line tied to the forestay ... a gin pole was not even needed)

Right on all fronts, but...

What I saw in that video was 100% bozo factor, the evidence being buddy on the ground wearing sailing gloves (when there was no rope to be pulled) and a GoPro (when he should have been concentrating on a critical and potentially hazardous task). His mind was on looking like a sailor for video. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but you should save it for when you actually know what you're doing. Until then it's a dangerous distraction, as we saw here.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

The short answer to all of this is sail with friends! You may sail solo but going with friends and other boats you always have help to rig your boat.

Personally, I would never free lift a mast with no assistance. To me, it is too easy to get things off line and into trouble and not worth the chance.

Light, fast, fun (and simple if you want it) .... F16. 240#s all up! I know it is not the boat for everyone but that is why I own four others.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

dssaak

The short answer to all of this is sail with friends! You may sail solo but going with friends and other boats you always have help to rig your boat.

Personally, I would never free lift a mast with no assistance. To me, it is too easy to get things off line and into trouble and not worth the chance.

I'm not going to call this bad advice, but it doesn't work for me. I've spent much of my life as a solo sailor prowling the prairies and mountains for places where there usually aren't any people to help. So I came up free lifting the Mystere's mast and expect, even though I now have a family that's often with me, to figure out how to be self-sufficient with the SC19 as well. If that involves a gin pole or other special assistance, so be it. Do what I gotta do.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 14, 2019 - 02:46 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

I said I would never FREE LIFT a mast without someone helping. I have raised all my masts solo and hook up stays to pull them up and keep them in line while doing so.

I hope the "bad" reference didn't refer to sailing with friends. No offense but not sure how you could compare one to the other. Maybe I just have great friends.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Understood. I free lift the Mystere's because I learned to do it reliably alone and have never had a mishap over decades of sailing it. That's all.

And what I said was that sailing with friends is not bad advice. Shouldn't be any confusion there. I love sailing with other people, but have learned to be self-reliant when I'm alone.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

What I saw in that video was 100% bozo factor, the evidence being buddy on the ground wearing sailing gloves (when there was no rope to be pulled) and a GoPro (when he should have been concentrating on a critical and potentially hazardous task). His mind was on looking like a sailor for video.

Quote

His mind was on looking like a sailor for video.

How do you know what his mind is on? Were you there? did you see him playing with his hair? was he fiddling with the camera?

BTW - the guy filming was the crew - not the skipper, not the boat owner. Crew who had sailed a few other times in his life.

I know this person, and I was there when this was filmed and I can tell you there was zero “hamming it up” to look like a sailor and the gloves were there to assist him rigging.

He put on a helmet cam (via a suggestion) so he can record the successful actions and failed actions of using a new gin pole on his new (to him) boat - as a new sailor it's a good thing to be able to review rigging and sailing - and you call him a bozo for it (and "a bit of a tosser")

And wearing gloves while rigging? maybe a wire rope on this 30 year old boat had a few burrs on it that he didn’t want to stick into his hand? Maybe there was a chance that something could go wrong and he may need to grab a rope or wire real quick? Maybe the black mast was very hot in the florida sun
I’ve been sailing since the 70’s. I put on gloves at times while stepping a mast too.
OH WAIT - I just realized I put my gloves on too in the video. hmmmmm boy those black masts get hot in the midday sun in florida

I saw your comment on his video on youtube (that he posted so others can learn from his mistakes) as well
“Hard not to think the star of our show is a bit of a tosser, with his gloves (and GoPro) on for stepping the mast.”
Jonathan Levine

Must be nice to be so perfect



Edited by MN3 on Dec 16, 2019 - 09:57 AM.

You don't have to like my take on it, but that's how I see it. I too have been sailing since the 70s (1970, actually, and cats since 1980 or so), and from all the years on all the boats in all the places with all the people and under all the conditions (including blizzards), I can say with a high degree of certainty that with boats of this scale, sailing gloves help sailing and hinder rigging (other than raising sails). And I noted the crew on the tramp was not wearing gloves.

So if they weren't there for function, another possibility is that they were there for show (for the benefit of himself and/or others).

And a headmounted camera is an objectively terrible way to record an operation like this, for all of the reasons familiar to anyone who's ever watched the resulting video. If he were serious about creating such documentation, the camera would have been on a tripod or held by a third party at a distance.

My perceptions and comments in this case are the simple product of experience, not of the perfection you kindly attribute to me, so I'm not going to apologize for them, nor get into a snarkfest with you, anonymous.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 12:08 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

My perceptions and comments in this case are the simple product of experience,

You calling him a bozo and a bit of a tosser is a product of you being an ass

again - gloves were for a very hot mast, and other hand hazards
video was to record the event for the skipper and others to learn from, not make a professional documentary

get over yourself - your input ridiculing a new sailor is uncalled for, not helpful in anyway and makes 1 person look like a jerk, and it's not the guy in the video

what value does calling him a tosser on his youtube page bring? you are mocking and ridiculing a new sailor for the sole purpose of degrading him and mocking him.

Poor form



Edited by MN3 on Dec 16, 2019 - 12:47 PM.

As I said, you may not like it, but I'm not calling you names either.

We're done here.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 02:06 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

As I said, you may not like it, but I'm not calling you names either.

Yup, your calling rookie cat sailors (whom happen to be my friends) names both here and on youtube - and I am calling you out on it.


It's uncalled for, it's not helpful, it's disrespectful and i wont sit here and let you do it without telling you it's not appreciated.



Edited by MN3 on Dec 16, 2019 - 02:39 PM.

Since you insist (and with apologies, particularly to the original poster asking about the SC19)...

In the case in question, my commenting on him gives him, and not you, the right to call me out. It's quite improper for you to presume you have his proxy in this matter.

What I'm really making a statement on here is something that you (given your presumed age) should well understand: That just because you can make a video and put it on the internet doesn't mean you should. Our society is under assault from uncounted millions of people who don't know what they're doing yet are compelled to share every minute of it with the world. In buddy's own words:

"We're new to it...so, I have a feeling we're going to makes plenty of mistakes...in fact...I'm quite sure of it!... this was something I felt...needed to be recorded and shared with the world."

Well, my friend, you're wrong. It doesn't. Record it if you wish, study it, learn from it. But unless and until you do a much better job at documenting and explaining, don't bother sharing it, because the only benefit will be to your ego, and you'll just be inviting judgment from heartless monsters like me. Should you become an actual catamaran instructional filmmaker, I eagerly look forward to seeing your work and learning from it. But in the meantime, until you kind of have a clue what you're doing, please just keep it to yourself.

If you don't really get what I'm talking about, I suggest Andrew Keen's "The Cult of the Amateur". I believe that his argument for manning the parapets against enthusiastically broadcast mediocrity is a sound one. ("You mean a billion Chinese aren't staying awake right now waiting for my picture of the most awesome avocado toast ever?")

And I don't have a lick of trouble being seen as argumentative (Q: Why is arguing with an engineer like wrestling with a pig? A: You're going to get dirty, you're going to lose, and the pig likes it.), but do us the favour of not quoting me out of context, as that's a transparent trick that fails to serve your argument.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 04:33 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

And we're off topic.

--
'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
--

Hence my apology above.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

[quote]

Quote

In the case in question, my commenting on him gives him, and not you, the right to call me out. It's quite improper for you to presume you have his proxy in this matter.

Comments in public forums are invitations for all to respond. I don't need your permission, nor accept what you suggest are my rights.

Talk poorly (out of line) about a friend of mine who isn't around to defend himself and i can promise you i will chime in. Even if he wasn't a friend of mine, you have gone out of the way to ridicule a new sailor for wearing gloves while rigging and a hat camera, on multiple websites. this is a poor way to encourage new sailors and frankly - immature (given your presumed age)

Quote

What I'm really making a statement on here is something that you (given your presumed age) should well understand: That just because you can make a video and put it on the internet doesn't mean you should.

so multiple comments in multiple public websites, and now 4 paragraphs to express what your real issue is ... that he shouldn't be posting videos of his sailing experiences because he is a rookie with little experience.

I will stick with my original thought again
It's uncalled for, it's not helpful, it's disrespectful - and i will call you out every time

Thanks - ymmv

Quote

... that he shouldn't be posting videos of his sailing experiences because he is a rookie with little experience.

It's a little more subtle than that. "Rookie[s] with little experience" may well have something to say that we may benefit from hearing. It's about judging on a case-by-case basis whether or not they do, and my point is that - I think - in this case he doesn't, and instead is stroking his ego by looking sailory. A poster can avoid this potentially grossly-unfair judgment by being more discriminating in what (s)he posts for public consumption.

If he's on youtube, he's capable of being here. I invite him to come speak for himself.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 04:31 PM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

It's a little more subtle than that.

I lack the subtle gene and skillset

i may even be wrong, and have been wrong and apologized a million times for it. and that was a slow day. but i will stand up for publicly berating newbies for being green every time

but ... any further discussion should be taken off line
please PM me if you wish to continue

To push it back on topic-while "incomplete" videos may not be professionally produced, they are VERY much welcomed in this digital age that is so very sparse on Hobie 21SE information. As a recent convert to sailing cats (1 year in) and having little other sources of information, just like the original poster, I study whatever I can find on-line. I'm just really, really lucky to have good friends first that also sail. The video is helpful. I'm a newish sailor, but have tons of experience in aerospace composites; I'll share what I know because that's what we do and what these forums and video posts are for. It's free speech-you have to discern for yourself no matter your age, (unfortunately ???). Most advice is good, I've seen.

The 19 is a big boat, big fun but equally bigger (well, different) methods of handling it. The OP needs to figure out personally if it fits his personality. Big means more work, but also higher rewards if not quite as many.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

For what it is worth....

20 some years ago, I entered the Milt Ingram Race with a Hobie 16, with winds forecasted at over 30 knots, and ended up doing my return leg on a CG boat.

That was unquestionably a bozo move.

Since then, I've got countless channel crossings under my belt on boats including a Hobie 18, Prindle 19 (including two solo crossings), Mystere 6.0, and Catalina Monohulls from 30 to 50 ft.

I've written ezine stories and blogs on many of the trips. I still think one of the most valuable write ups for rookies was the detailed article on my "bozo move". There are lessons in there, particularly how the rules can change in righting a cat in high winds and heavy seas.

A story or video showing where something goes wrong can be just as valuable as one where everything goes right, sometimes even more so. I encourage the new folks to look for the lessons in these videos and leave the critiques of "ego" and "sailory" appearances to those who have the misguided opinion that someone posting their own screw ups are somehow stroking their own ego. And that is a bit ironic, now that I think about it.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

What I like about the video is it is very real. This is cat sailing. A lot of videos are about fine tuning every little adjustment on a boat that is already rigged sitting pretty on the beach, then going out flying in ideal conditions. Showing all the little steps, and mis steps in real time can really help somebody decide if this for them. It was informative for me as I am not a gin pole user, and after this, I don't think its for me, really adds to set up time. I guess I may change my mind as I get older. Those guys stuck with it with a decent attitude and got on the water, all you can hope for.

for you all that can appreciate the videos for what they are: there are more on his page.

that day continued to prove very challenging for this new sailor.
he learned the valuable lesson that the jib halyard attachment point needs to be on the bottom of the mast prior to mast stepping or you will need to a. flip the boat over on it's side to retrieve it, or b. take the mast down

his next vid shows us flipping the boat in the water

the rest of the day continued to test his patience with the main sail not hooking and needing to flip the boat again and then his hulls flooding and needing to pump them dry while parked on an island
he had a great attitude all day long and was laughing about it all.

i would have been so frustrated i would have probably scuttled the boat

I missed all that. How awesome he shared it! Its good to commiserate, dang! And I thought I was the only one to fly that jib halyard! That's a giant Doh! moment you have to laugh at. A couple weeks ago, my friend and I went sailing- 75 degrees, 68 degree water, decent winds, why not? Well, after sewing the jib in the field because the zipper broke, we felt pretty good on the water.... "Want to try sailing to Redfish (from Texas City dike)?". Why not... Well, when the wind shifts, it's straight upwind to now get back and the sun is setting is why not... Even with a shorty wet suit I got a light case of hypothermia and a rather ticked wife...got on sand about 8:30 pm and de-rigged in essentially pitch black. That was an exercise in lessons...

Point is the same-failures have a ton of lessons in them.

--
Chuck C.
H21SE 408
--

As a long time sailor with not a lot of beach cat experience I find the this thread very interesting. While the OP was about selecting a first beach cat it seems there has been somewhat of a shift to how to raise the mast on a beach cat. Truth be told my biggest shock was figuring out how to raise the mast on my Prindle 18-2. While I have raised and lowered the mast I am still not sure I have come up with the final solution. I do use a ladder, but not a six foot one; my ladder is ten feet tall. That extra four feet really makes a difference. I also have not raised the mast solo. I have a friend position the ladder somewhat close to the end of the mast and while I am on the tramp lifting the mast he puts the ladder under the mast to support it. Then I lift the mast a little more and he moves the ladder closer to the boat as the mast gets higher. At some point he leaves the ladder, climbs up on the tramp and the two of us complete getting the mast up. Then one of us attaches the stays while the other one stabilizes the mast. I also leave the straps that secure the boat to the trailer in place till the mast is raised. To lower the mast I make sure the straps attaching the boat to the trailer are in place. Then I move the ladder in front of the trailer and use a winch (actually a come along) attached to the forestay and run over the top of the ladder to lower the mast while one of us stays on the boat to stabilize the mast as it is lowered.

I would point out there is an online vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3hbRmy-7w I sorta based this method on. The difference in my method and the one in the vid is the guy in the vid is a 6'4" 250lb off shore oil worker with the strength to do things my old tired body can't; which is why I need the help of a friend. But it shows how helpful a ladder can be in raising a mast. It also shows how a well designed system of stays and trap lines makes things a lot easier and safer.

The point is that for me at least sailing was the easy part, getting the boat rigged and off the trailer and into the water was the hard part.

mattson

I've written ezine stories and blogs on many of the trips. I still think one of the most valuable write ups for rookies was the detailed article on my "bozo move". There are lessons in there, particularly how the rules can change in righting a cat in high winds and heavy seas.

A story or video showing where something goes wrong can be just as valuable as one where everything goes right, sometimes even more so. I encourage the new folks to look for the lessons in these videos

I concur 100%. In fact, in case anyone's uncertain, I'm the king of dumb shit. Do it all the time. Never taken out persons or property with a falling mast, but just about everything else. Buy me a beer sometime and ask me about standing next to my truck out on the highway with the front end on the ground and both front wheels splayed out like in a cartoon after an "experiment" with the bearings - that one's a total knee-slapper. The difference is in my approach to dealing with it after the smoke has cleared. I'm not a pathological videographer, so I don't have anything to squirt up on youtube before the minute hand has ticked with a "my new fail, d00dz!" caption. Instead, I think about it for a good long time, then write it up (e.g. on my blog) so as to maximize both the value of the lesson and the humour - which is invariably self-deprecating - because unless you make it funny as well as educational, it's more likely to come off as preachy and not an entertaining read. Call me "old school".

Quote

and leave the critiques of "ego" and "sailory" appearances to those who have the misguided opinion that someone posting their own screw ups are somehow stroking their own ego.

No. Please. Bill, you're out of line with that little summary, because it's a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I was commenting on a single, specific case. I did not draw any such broad generalization, and it's absolutely not how I feel.



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 17, 2019 - 11:31 AM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

MN3

for you all that can appreciate the videos for what they are: there are more on his page.

I made a point of watching them.

Quote

that day continued to prove very challenging for this new sailor.
he learned the valuable lesson that the jib halyard attachment point needs to be on the bottom of the mast prior to mast stepping or you will need to a. flip the boat over on it's side to retrieve it, or b. take the mast down

his next vid shows us flipping the boat in the water

And I note that this operation was recorded from a distance so one can see what went on rather than more of that head-mounted stuff. Buddy's a quick study.

Quote

the rest of the day continued to test his patience with the main sail not hooking and needing to flip the boat again and then his hulls flooding and needing to pump them dry while parked on an island
he had a great attitude all day long and was laughing about it all.

i would have been so frustrated i would have probably scuttled the boat

I can't say that looked or sounds bad enough to set fire to and walk away from - been through worse. But you certainly can't fault him for digging in and working through it.

After watching his others vids, I added a comment to the "discussion" section. It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine whether I'm being positive and supportive or still just being a dick.

And was that you passing him for a handoff on the Mystere 5.5?



Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 17, 2019 - 11:11 AM.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Could someone please post a link to these videos, I can't seem to find them.
And what happened to the OP? Did he buy the boat?

--
Dart 20
--

Just got a PM from the OP.
After reading this thread he decided to take up golf.

--
Dart 20
--

boatbore

Could someone please post a link to these videos, I can't seem to find them.
And what happened to the OP? Did he buy the boat?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvEjyppLinBxngSKHwd4NAQ
the video we were talking about was the snapped trap wire

original poster hasn't returned and no news on his purchase

MN3

boatbore

Could someone please post a link to these videos, I can't seem to find them.
And what happened to the OP? Did he buy the boat?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvEjyppLinBxngSKHwd4NAQ
the video we were talking about was the snapped trap wire

original poster hasn't returned and no news on his purchase

https://www.youtube.com/c…UCvEjyppLinBxngSKHwd4NAQ
You’re welcome

boatbore

Just got a PM from the OP.
After reading this thread he decided to take up golf.

I hope he doesn't plan to use a heavy wood
i would suggest he gets one that is safe and the correct size for a 16 year old race sailor

MN3

for you all that can appreciate the videos for what they are: there are more on his page.

that day continued to prove very challenging for this new sailor.
he learned the valuable lesson that the jib halyard attachment point needs to be on the bottom of the mast prior to mast stepping or you will need to a. flip the boat over on it's side to retrieve it, or b. take the mast down

his next vid shows us flipping the boat in the water

the rest of the day continued to test his patience with the main sail not hooking and needing to flip the boat again and then his hulls flooding and needing to pump them dry while parked on an island
he had a great attitude all day long and was laughing about it all.

i would have been so frustrated i would have probably scuttled the boat

How in the world did you get a video of me?

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

boatbore

And what happened to the OP? Did he buy the boat?

I was curious as well - PMed him on Sunday to ask and never heard back.

Kids these days and their short attention spans...

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

Quote

How in the world did you get a video of me?

haha! I think most of us who have sailed a few dozen 100 times have learned all these lessons the hard way

makes me feel so stupid silly when i repeat them now :)

mattson

For what it is worth....

It's worth a lot!

Quote

I've written ezine stories and blogs on many of the trips. I still think one of the most valuable write ups for rookies was the detailed article on my "bozo move". There are lessons in there, particularly how the ...

Thank you for documenting and sharing your knowledge and experiences
I've learned tons from experienced sailors passing on knowledge

Quote

That was unquestionably a bozo move.

ya but gained a ton of sailing experience (quickly) and that "i survived" endorphin rush is pretty fun !

ragebot

As a long time sailor with not a lot of beach cat experience I find the this thread very interesting. While the OP was about selecting a first beach cat it seems there has been somewhat of a shift to how to raise the mast on a beach cat. Truth be told my biggest shock was figuring out how to raise the mast on my Prindle 18-2. While I have raised and lowered the mast I am still not sure I have come up with the final solution. I do use a ladder, but not a six foot one; my ladder is ten feet tall. That extra four feet really makes a difference. I also have not raised the mast solo. I have a friend position the ladder somewhat close to the end of the mast and while I am on the tramp lifting the mast he puts the ladder under the mast to support it. Then I lift the mast a little more and he moves the ladder closer to the boat as the mast gets higher. At some point he leaves the ladder, climbs up on the tramp and the two of us complete getting the mast up. Then one of us attaches the stays while the other one stabilizes the mast. I also leave the straps that secure the boat to the trailer in place till the mast is raised. To lower the mast I make sure the straps attaching the boat to the trailer are in place. Then I move the ladder in front of the trailer and use a winch (actually a come along) attached to the forestay and run over the top of the ladder to lower the mast while one of us stays on the boat to stabilize the mast as it is lowered.

I would point out there is an online vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3hbRmy-7w I sorta based this method on. The difference in my method and the one in the vid is the guy in the vid is a 6'4" 250lb off shore oil worker with the strength to do things my old tired body can't; which is why I need the help of a friend. But it shows how helpful a ladder can be in raising a mast. It also shows how a well designed system of stays and trap lines makes things a lot easier and safer.

The point is that for me at least sailing was the easy part, getting the boat rigged and off the trailer and into the water was the hard part.

I resent the oil worker comment. Im a towboat captain and only weight 235 lbs at 6-5. LOL Its all good. you got any questions on the system that im using give me a call. shoot me a PM for info

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

Quote

I resent the oil worker comment. Im a towboat captain and only weight 235 lbs

lol

MN3

Quote

I resent the oil worker comment. Im a towboat captain and only weight 235 lbs

lol

and dont you forget it

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

cholley12

ragebot

SNIP

I would point out there is an online vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3hbRmy-7w I sorta based this method on. The difference in my method and the one in the vid is the guy in the vid is a 6'4" 250lb off shore oil worker with the strength to do things my old tired body can't; which is why I need the help of a friend. But it shows how helpful a ladder can be in raising a mast. It also shows how a well designed system of stays and trap lines makes things a lot easier and safer.

The point is that for me at least sailing was the easy part, getting the boat rigged and off the trailer and into the water was the hard part.

I resent the oil worker comment. Im a towboat captain and only weight 235 lbs at 6-5. LOL Its all good. you got any questions on the system that im using give me a call. shoot me a PM for info

Well I am 73 years old so I blame my old tired eyes and Alzheimer’s disease; not to mention my poor keyboard skills for the error.

I really like the system you have and the Colligo Marine stuff. That is definitely a great idea. Truth be told I may be putting that rigging on my big boat. Still trying to get it ready to sail it to the Bahamas after the first of the year and my Prindle is on the second burner now.

PM sent

ragebot

cholley12

ragebot

SNIP

I would point out there is an online vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3hbRmy-7w I sorta based this method on. The difference in my method and the one in the vid is the guy in the vid is a 6'4" 250lb off shore oil worker with the strength to do things my old tired body can't; which is why I need the help of a friend. But it shows how helpful a ladder can be in raising a mast. It also shows how a well designed system of stays and trap lines makes things a lot easier and safer.

The point is that for me at least sailing was the easy part, getting the boat rigged and off the trailer and into the water was the hard part.

I resent the oil worker comment. Im a towboat captain and only weight 235 lbs at 6-5. LOL Its all good. you got any questions on the system that im using give me a call. shoot me a PM for info

Well I am 73 years old so I blame my old tired eyes and Alzheimer’s disease; not to mention my poor keyboard skills for the error.

I really like the system you have and the Colligo Marine stuff. That is definitely a great idea. Truth be told I may be putting that rigging on my big boat. Still trying to get it ready to sail it to the Bahamas after the first of the year and my Prindle is on the second burner now.

PM sent

Tom,
Returned

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--