Hi,
I have the Nacra F20C since 8 years now and already replaced twice the main and jib "performance sails" carbon sails which are actually hugely expensive and fragile like other parts in this boat. It's high performance amazing boat but the maintenance cost is extremely high.

I am looking to find more budgetary sails to buy. Is anyone has an experience for any reasonable alternatives that will be cheaper and last long? Is there a way to repair the sails (as far as I presume once it starts to crumble there is no way whatsoever to repair it).
Thank you for your help.
Moshe



Edited by mosherudko on Jan 03, 2019 - 08:38 AM.

Contact whirlwindsails@gmail.com and let them quote you some Dacron Sails...this fabric will hold up for a long time and at a reasonable cost.

--
Bill 404 21SE
--

4 years on a main and jib is doing just as well as F18 boats with polyester sails. If your racing often, a jib only lasts closer to one season. What country are you in?

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Hi Mosher... do you have the black scrim sails? This is the most recent cloth (about 3 years old) has a black scrim with an actual headboard, the material in this is actually technora.
The original cloth was carbon and it didn't hold up well because carbon is pretty brittle and corrodes with a lot of hardware.
The boat really demands a technora sailcloth. You could get away with pentex but it would not be much less expensive and would not be as durable as the technora. I would strongly suggest you stay away from a polyester laminate or dacron sail, the material will stretch and not work very well in no time.
I had a Carbon 20 FCS for 2 years and I was very impressed how the sails held up, the technora and laminate handles abuse much better than pentex, we converted it to a 20C and won the Florida 300 with 2 year old sails.
I'd be happy to help you depending what country you're in?

with discount sails you will shorten the sail's life expectancy and notice worse and quicker performance loss than with high-end sails. so pay now or pay then ... if you keep sailing and want performance .. it comes at a cost

i have purchased 4 technora sails for both my cats (5.5 and 6.0) and they do keep shape pretty well

edit :if you take real good care of them (rinse after use and dry thoroughly, flake if appropriate ), it will also significantly extend their life:

IF you don't race, don't care about top speed - that's a different story and dacron jibs may make sense (extended shelf life - but with blown out shape

i wouldn't recommend technora for a furling jib - it's life-span will be greatly diminished with furling but if you have the money ... then the 30%+ cost increase is worth it



Edited by MN3 on Jan 05, 2019 - 10:42 AM.

Sail costs are one major reason I don’t have an F20FCS sitting in the driveway at the moment. The prices I have been quoted make F18 sails look like absolute bargains.

The first question you have to ask is, are you racing in class legal configuration? In which case you are stuck with factory sails.

If not, Glaser has sails for the boat that are a bit cheaper and still built in Technora. Landenberger has also done sails for the boat.

It also sounds like you may have a storage issue, no sail even 8 years old should just crumble. It’s pretty important to try and store sails in a dry, cool environment as best is practical.

Hi Moshie,

Not to en intended as an insult, but reading your post is like hearing " I own a Ferrari 308, and where can I get some cheap tires for it.... Walmart or Discount Tire Store... ?

I know it is in our cat sailing DNA to not spend money, but I don't believe this can be done with the boat you have.

Or, another point of view, as my father use to say, "spend you money right the first time, so you don't have to spend it a second time.."

Good luck,

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

Thanks everybody for your advice.
I located in Israel and often race. The thing is that more of our colleagues changing from the F20C to the F18 formula due to the high maintenance cost of the boat. Usually it locked you out for several weeks till Nacra Holland sends a replacement. We use the SCHRS handy cap while racing with other multi haul classes. This is sometime frustrated because the HC takes in consideration the boat dimensions and not compensate the varied weather conditions. And so if you get to the finish line much ahead and the wind keeps developing at that time, the smaller boats have the chance to shorten the gap while the F20C already finished

It's normally take about 30 minutes to setup the boat and another hour for clearance. Means that you are quite tired after 3 hours sailing and have no energy to wash and try the sails time and again.

I have the black carbon sails and I wasn't aware of the Technora sails. Will further check this. Do you have an idea about the cost of Technora main and jib sailcloth for the F20C? I will also check the brands you have mentioned.
Thanks
Moshe

Moshe,

Technora is essentially black kevlar fibers. Many call it carbon just because its black.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Hello John, you absolutely right and that's the reason that we invested enormous amount of money in it and much enjoy its outstanding performance. Indeed beautiful as Ferrari, fastest as the Ferrari and ... costly as a Ferrari. But we crazy about taking the boat on the edge.

The reason why we seeks for a cheaper sailcloth is that we bought a brand new GOODALL C2/F18 for racing and we wish to keep the F20C for long distance regattas or when we have a shallow wind day. In this sense we thoughts it will be nice to save some money. BUT I clear that you can't drive a Ferrari with Fiat 600 (looks like a beetle) wheels!

I really appreciate this conversation and your willingness to help. I will check for some alternatives based on your advice.

BTW: as we speaks, the ship enters the port and by evening the C2 container will be unloaded and a rough guessing is that the C2 will launched by weekend.


Hi "Becho", thanks for your comment. I we double check how the sailcloth composed of.
Moshe

Quote

Technora is essentially black kevlar fibers. Many call it carbon just because its black.

"Technora is an aramid of the same family as Kevlar, Twaron or Vectran. Like them it shares similar properties. It was developed by a Dutch company, Teijin.

It has improved fatigue resistance. Reported strength is higher than Kevlar."
https://www.christinedemerchant.com/aramid_kevlar_technora_rope_strength.html


Technora:
Technora, like Kevlar, is an aramid, but with vastly improved fatigue properties. It shares Kevlar's high tensile strength and high melting point.
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/cthsc/cthsc.html

thanks for the usable information. Will further invest.

Glaser sail prices for the F20c: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a6766a4268b9644460aa8d8/t/5a78c5708165f55ba26d061d/1517864304260/NACRA20C_SailPrices.pdf

If you are racing handicap and your local fleet approves I don't see a need to stick with Performance Sails, though they have a new DS design that should be fast and I don't think the price is that much different from Glaser.

Racing on handicap is subject to getting beaten by slower boats when the breeze comes up later in the afternoon; I have been beaten by H16's in distance races on corrected time as a result of this, so that is just a fact of life no matter what system is used. Locally often the opposite happens, where the slower boats find wind holes and dying breeze on the course while the faster ones can extend. If you want to race fairly, race one design. The F18 is good for that.

Thanks for your encouragement ......... Indeed, have to live with it.

There is a problem accessing your url. can you recopy? Actually can find Glaser myself.

Managed with the url. thanks

samc99us

Glaser sail prices for the F20c

This would/is my first choice for a new sail....

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

samc99us

If you are racing handicap and your local fleet approves I don't see a need to stick with Performance Sails / Racing on handicap is subject to getting beaten by slower boats when the breeze comes up later in the afternoon / If you want to race fairly, race one design. The F18 is good for that.

You don't need to stick with performance sails as long as your local handicapper is willing to adjust your personal rating accordingly. I was looking at the SCHRS calculator and I don't see an adjustment for sail material.

No getting around the different wind for different boats on different parts of the course. As long as the fleet isn't too different speed wise boat to boat, try ToD rather than ToT.

One can race fairly across a diverse fleet of boats. It is hard work for the rating committee but can be done ... we do it. If you say that you want to race with as little complexity as possible, then, yes, racing one design does it. First across the line wins. It is an interesting concept for us handicap racers.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Hello DK,
Interesting. May you elaborate more about how this adjustment of the SCHRS can be done to support the extra variables as boat configuration and/or weather changes at race time? So far we considers the SCHRS as a bible that can't be modified.
Varied or strong wind mostly gives advantage to the F18 over on the F20, moderate wind is an advantage for the F20, type and condition of the rigging impacts the performance of either the F18 and the F20 but isn't factorized. Sound like we open a Pandora box, however every time after the race we have a parliament on the beach discussing who earns the handicap this time (means, something is incomplete there)
Moshe

Moshe,

DK I believe has built his own handicap system. I find SCHRS totally reliable for beachcat racing between straight board boats and probably c-board boats. Not sure how well it handles foiling at this point but regardless it uses the largest database of results to compute the ratings and is the current standard.

It sounds like your fleet doesn't have a long history of handicap racing...ours has 25+ years and switching to SCHRS has reduced confusion and concerns over fairness at the bar....bottom line, sail the F20c harder...add some t foils to the rudders and sliders to the trunk, or if you really think the F18 has an advantage in strong breeze race that.

You can use the SCHRS calculator here: https://www.schrs.com/downloads.php

The F18 specs in the SCHRS table are most definitely correct; I would cross check the F20c specs with your actual fleet, as I have found errors in the table for other boats before (Nacra 20 One Design). Specifically, boat weight and sail size has a direct impact on the rating and I have a suspicion that your boats may be a little bit heavier than the table.

In terms of sails, yes SCHRS doesn't limit sails but you have a one design fleet of F20c's that you are racing against as well and deviating from that can open Pandoras box for sure. Also, if your new sails are larger or smaller than the stock ones your rating would change...that will add to the drama on the beach rather than subtract.

JohnES

samc99us

Glaser sail prices for the F20c

This would/is my first choice for a new sail....

Glaser build a quality product and have excellent support, however they don't have a decksweeper sail and this has proven faster in the F18 and the difference on the F20 should be larger as they are semi foiling most of the time anyway and could really benefit from the earlier depowering a DS main provides while maintaining light air performance due to the increased efficiency of the DS main.

Moshe,

You can go to our website, https://sites.google.com/view/communityfleet, to see what we do as far as rating. I wouldn't say that we "invented our own" as the system is essentially 90% PHRF, 8% PYS and 2% for what seems to be our unique adjustment of the B Factor in a ToT calculation. We give different boats different ratings and different B Factor adjustments depending on wind conditions. That does eliminate the issues where F18s are better in some winds and the opposite in others. We do this because we have a very diverse fleet where we are racing trimarans, monohulls and catamarans (older and newer designs) all in one fleet.

If we were exclusively catamaran populated, SCHRS would likely be the ticket. That said, some of the SCHRS ratings that define a speed differential between some boat models are not consistent with the many years of racing history we have. I am not saying wrong or right, just that our experience is different. In the end, any system is only as good as the buy in you get from the racers. If they don't race because they don't think it is fair, it won't take long before your fleet just goes away.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Thank you all for sharing your experience with me. It will surly help us on both issues.
See you on the water.
Moshe



Edited by mosherudko on Jan 10, 2019 - 08:17 AM.

This has sort of become two different conversations...

Regarding the N20C/FCS sails. I just got my boat last month and can't report on sail longevity yet. I bought it used and not know how many miles the sails actually have on them, but... they seem to have a bit more wear that we expected. If I had my choice, I'd buy sails from Landenberts, 1D, NexGen or Glasser, but class rules currently limit that.

For SCHRS, you are correct, sail material has no impact on rating. However, SCHRS makes the assumption that you are class legal. If your boat doesn't meet all of the class requirements, you can't claim the class rating and need to be measured.