I have a copy of Rick White's Catamaran Racing for the 90's. Anyone not familiar with it should take a look at it. Great book. Anyway, on the subject of righting lines, he states "Simple is often best, all you really need is a line that is easily held and tied to the center of the main beam. It must be long enough to be thrown over the hull and reach to the water."

So my first question is, on a Hobie 16, what is the main beam?

My other question is, when single handed righting a Hobie 16, what is the best position to be standing on the hull for the best leverage? I have read that you should be at the "deepest" part of the hull which would be somewhat close to the center of the tramp area, and I have also read you should be in line with the mast. Which is correct?

Would appreciate any thoughts on this subject. Thanks.

On a Hobie 16, the mast step sits in the mast base which is riveted to the center of the main beam, the front crossbar of the trampoline frame.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

Hobie 16 - tie the righting line to the dolphin striker post. Throw it over the hull and down to the water. You will be standing more or less directly across from the front crossbar. You need to be close enough to the crossbar that you can grab onto the dolphin striker when she comes up so the boat doesn't do an "up and over" and also so she doesn't sail away from you.

The easiest way to hold the line is to throw two wraps around your trap harness and hold the line with your hand. This takes most of the strain off of your arms. Otherwise you will probably fatigue quickly.

sm

I have always been able to right my H16 by standing on the lower hull right at the main(front) beam which is inline with the mast. I never have used anything special like a mast float, righting bag etc. Just make sure your mast is properly sealed, your sails are uncleated and rotate the boat some so that the wind will help you right it by pushing on the top side of the tramp. I do have a Hawaiian righting system. That is just to store the righting line when it's not in use. It makes getting the boat back on its feet pretty easy.

--
Dave Wilson
Hobie 16, Hobie 14
Tampa, FL
--

Dogboy, please explain a little how you are wrapping your righting line around your trap harness.

DaveW70, what is a Hawaiian righting system and how does it work.

Hobie sells one they refer to as the Easy Up (part 30101). https://static.hobiecat.c…attachments/30101z52.pdf It's little more than some line, bungee and some blocks. It's really quite simple. I highly recommend them. You can make your own even. When you need to use it, you pull it out at the front cross bar and lean back to begin righting the boat. As the boat comes up you just let it go and it returns to where it's stored. Done. I always climb back on board using the dolphin striker as mentioned above. Often when I have a crew with me we don't even bother to orient the boat properly and usually I don't even get wet above the waist. It's easy and fast. And, it doesn't hurt to get on board quickly because even though the sheets are loose the boat will begin to sail.

Rick White, by the way, was a great sailor and a great teacher. He will be sorely missed.



Edited by DaveW70 on Jul 22, 2017 - 05:44 PM.

--
Dave Wilson
Hobie 16, Hobie 14
Tampa, FL
--

catman42

Dogboy, please explain a little how you are wrapping your righting line around your trap harness.

The line comes down from the upper hull. You wrap it two or three times around your harness hook. You grab the free end and the end coming down from the upper hull right above the hook so it doesn't slip and you lean back. The couple of wraps around the hook add friction so it's easier to hold. The harness takes the load off your arms. Sometimes it takes a little trial and error with adjusting the length of the line so your body is at the correct angle off the water.

sm

Quote

Hobie 16 - tie the righting line to the dolphin striker post.

I don't ever tie or secure anything to my dolphin striker
they are designed to take force from 1 direction (top down)
if your line slips down a few inches and is pulling from anywhere near the middle of the DS - you are risking one of the most important parts of your boat that keep the mast from exploding through your beam

I tie off to the mast ball

Quote

The easiest way to hold the line is to throw two wraps around your trap harness

You can tie a loop in your line ahead of time and simply hook into it when you need to (of course you need to establish the correct location)

My other tip would be: carry and deploy an anchor if you capsize. It will point your bows into the wind (where they should be), it will prevent your boat from sliding on it's side during righting , will prevent your boat from drifting (with zero steering), and will prevent your cat from any chance of powering up after righting

The only time you don't really don't need an anchor is during racing when there are chase boats, and others around to help if things get bad - (but i would probably still have one on board)



Edited by MN3 on Jul 24, 2017 - 08:07 AM.

Keep in mind that if you attach your harness to a loop in the righting line and the boat decides to start sailing or does something else "unexpected", you may not be able to detach yourself from the righting line if needed.

If you just wrap the righting line around your harness hook a couple times and hold the line with your hand, all you need to do is let go and you will immediately separate from the boat. This is the reason why I don't use a loop or knots in my righting line.

sm

Dogboy

Keep in mind that if you attach your harness to a loop in the righting line and the boat decides to start sailing or does something else "unexpected", you may not be able to detach yourself from the righting line if needed.

If you just wrap the righting line around your harness hook a couple times and hold the line with your hand, all you need to do is let go and you will immediately separate from the boat. This is the reason why I don't use a loop or knots in my righting line.

sm

I understand if you are racing, you prob don't have an anchor w you...
and Your method does sound a bit safer (for quick release) but you have lost use of 1 hand and it is another thing to keep track of while balancing a boat and water bag

if i have successfully deployed and set my anchor (step 1 for me)- there is little chance of the boat doing anything

that being said- I don't even have trap wires on either of my cats currently - i broke and haven't replaced my harness crossbar (hook) in like 2 years - and almost never trap anymore... unless crewing on someone else's ride

I have recently taken my wings off so i will defiantly put wires back on my 6.0



Edited by MN3 on Jul 24, 2017 - 07:52 PM.

Quote

Hobie 16 - tie the righting line to the dolphin striker post. Throw it over the hull and down to the water. You will be standing more or less directly across from the front crossbar. You need to be close enough to the crossbar that you can grab onto the dolphin striker when she comes up so the boat doesn't do an "up and over" and also so she doesn't sail away from you.

This picture shows exactly why i never tie off my righting line to a DS -
sure it might slide to the top when the line is pulled, but what if that clip catches something and it doesn't slide to the top

MN3

Quote

Hobie 16 - tie the righting line to the dolphin striker post. Throw it over the hull and down to the water. You will be standing more or less directly across from the front crossbar. You need to be close enough to the crossbar that you can grab onto the dolphin striker when she comes up so the boat doesn't do an "up and over" and also so she doesn't sail away from you.

This picture shows exactly why i never tie off my righting line to a DS -
sure it might slide to the top when the line is pulled, but what if that clip catches something and it doesn't slide to the top

I wish the water I sailed on looked like that.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

tominpa

I wish the water I sailed on looked like that. [/quote]

Just change your name to TominAcapulco!



Edited by MN3 on Aug 04, 2017 - 10:06 AM.

MN3

[This picture shows exactly why i never tie off my righting line to a DS -
sure it might slide to the top when the line is pulled, but what if that clip catches something and it doesn't slide to the top

That picture shows the dolphin striker post pulled forward - most likely caused by someone connecting their trailer winch to the bottom of the dolphin striker assembly and using it to pull the boat up onto the trailer.

Since the righting line is thrown over the hull, any load on the post would be lateral, not fore/aft. The dolphin striker rod (or strap in the case of your picture) acts to stabilize the bottom of the post laterally, so bending the post sideways would be very unlikely. It's definitely a good practice to make sure the righting line is slid up against the bottom of the crossbar (or pass it through the center tramp lacings so it is held up against the crossbar), but Hobie sailors have been tying righting lines to the dolphin striker for decades.

sm

sm - Let me start this with this disclaimer: i have seen your posts for years, i know you are a skilled sailor, i agree with just about everything you post:

Quote

That picture shows the dolphin striker post pulled forward - most likely caused by someone connecting their trailer winch to the bottom of the dolphin striker assembly and using it to pull the boat up onto the trailer.

I thought it looked slanted too - This is Philip's Nacra, I don't know what the story is with it

Quote

Since the righting line is thrown over the hull, any load on the post would be lateral, not fore/aft. The dolphin striker rod (or strap in the case of your picture) acts to stabilize the bottom of the post laterally, so bending the post sideways would be very unlikely

I have seen people slide off their hulls during righting, i have seen people try to right the boat in the wrong direction and have their boat take off as soon as it rights - trying to hold on by the righting line
I have seen people sail away with the righting bag still attached, i have personally had a righting bag fall overboard after righting - several of these scenarios could lead to forces being applied directly to the bottom of the DS, pulling it in a front/aft motion - too risky for me

Quote

but Hobie sailors have been tying righting lines to the dolphin striker for decades.

I am aware - I was instructed to do this when i started beachcats 20 years ago
it is still too sensitive of a location for me to risk damage - esp when there is a tie off spot 3" above it (on the mast ball)

Your points are valid and if the righting line is tied to the dolphin striker, it's certainly a good idea to be aware of the potential risks. But on the other hand, it's hard to argue with something that's been done for 40 some odd years. Mine will be staying tied to the dolphin striker for the time being....

sm

Twice the reason for the forward leaning dolphin striker (as shown in the picture) has been demonstrated to me. Both times it was a direct result of pulling forward on the bars that support the rod, either to pull the cat up the beach, or onto the trailer. I asked both times why they did this, and was told that "We always use the rods to pull up the cat. It's a perfect handle." When I pointed out the bend in the DS rod, all I got was shrugged shoulders. Stories of people using the DS rod to winch their cat onto the trailer abound as well, unfortunately.

For the record, my righting line is tied to/through a well placed grommet in my trampoline, located dead center and on the forward edge of my tramp (just behind the mast base). Both my Prindles had this, and I have helped a Hobie or two do the same with their righting line using the center lacing grommets.

The only thing tied to the DS is the shock cord that leads back to a grommet near the very center of my tramp that you put the mainsheet/traveler line through to keep it from siding off the tramp into the water during heeling.



Edited by klozhald on Aug 04, 2017 - 04:54 PM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

We tie all our righting lines to the DS, the loose loop slides to the top. I've never seen it sit at the bottom while righting, & I have some experience with righting, in all kinds of conditions!
With friction over the hull, if my DS bends from righting, I wouldn't trust it to support the beam.

Phillips boat looks like the beam has rotated within the straps vs bending the rod.(Or maybe he was raking the mast, & so purposefully rotated the beam a bit so that the mast was in line with the DS). You can see the end of the V brace strap is not at the bottom of the curve where the beam sits. I have done this on the 5.7 after some really hard bashing. The beam is prevented from rotating by the 1/2 moon chocks inside the front beam, like so;

If the beam slips, it will travel until the bolt hits the edge of the hole,(possibly enlarged due corrosion), or until it hits the tramp track.
Who knows, he may have just set the boat up, I see the mast is still pinned to the ball. He would remove that pin before sailing.



Edited by Edchris177 on Aug 04, 2017 - 10:04 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

That pic was before the main beam was replaced.

The reason for the replacement? Corrosion. See the pics below. They are in his album.

The post and compression tube were wobbling around in the whole.
Sheet the main and the post tilted back, loosen the main and it went back forward.

It has nothing to do with the righting line and the post was not bent.

This was years ago and the boat is still sailed, raced and is competitive today.





--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

I like the righting system on my Dart. It is wholly contained within the front beam, retracted by bungee cord. When required, just pull the red ball. When you let it go it retracts out of the way.


--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

I had been debating this for awhile. Thanks everyone, for weighing in.

The Prindle manual sez the righting line is to be tied off thru a tramp grommet (with a figure 8 knot). No mention of the DS. Didn't seem right to me that a rusty old grommet and some thin webbing would be secure enough for multiple capsizes. (Picture ripping the tramp a new one and watching the boat float away with the rope still in your hands).

On the Prindles, the mast ball sits right at the casting, so any righting or anchor lines wrapped here could get under the mast and lead to a dismast. I'm not too fond of those events.

So I currently have 2 righting lines stuffed, both tied to the DS. Plus a Hawaiian system, plus a righting bag. (No room for an anchor yet, but I'm working on it).

Guess I'll tie the primary righting line through the grommet and to the DS, and give that a try.

And try REAL HARD not to flip it.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

Quote

I see the mast is still pinned to the ball. He would remove that pin before sailing.

Why? it's a captive ball - no need to remove it is there?

also - his boards are down - pretty sure this was already "sailing"

Wow, a lot posted here from a single picture, very entertaining. I was actually reading these posts from email notification (no pics) and never realized everyone was talking about my boat until I saw my name and went to the website. The theories and real experiences described by dogboy, Bob, Edchris, and Ron are all valid, real life experiences and certainly possible. Edchris and Ron both make excellent and accurate posts and their experience with Nacras should be respected. Butt, . . . most of these theories don't apply here.

There is no way I would not notice or I would cause a bent, rotated loose front beam assembly. I'm too detailed, so here we go.

Beam assembly and all parts were replaced and beam bedded January 2005, a month before picture was taken.



The dolphin striker aluminum V-bar was also replaced and newer SS welded bolt plates were added that attach the V-bar to the beam. New internal beam castings were included and installed (old ones had some corrosion, pitting). The beam was prepped and drilled at the factory to receive hardware. Additionally, we also added structural beam reinforcement sleeves which are about 2' long. The structural sleeves made for a very tight fit for the internal beam casting. There was no rotation play possible. The setup and prep also was designed for a newer sail plan which added some rake for proper compression load alignment. (Good job Ed who said "...Or maybe he was raking the mast, & so purposefully rotated the beam a bit so that the mast was in line with the DS..."). Prebend was set a 3/8".

So when I looked at the picture everyone was talking about it did seem to "look" rotated more forward than I can assure you it was. I think this was the result of a couple of things. The position of very aggressively forward raked mast in rotation and something called barrel distortion in wide lens photography, creating a sense of optical illusion for the viewer. Here is another picture of the exact same setup.



This picture was taken before we went out. We rigged the platform with an aggressive forward raked mast for a light air day. You can see that the beam assembly doesn't seem to look as forward as in the picture of discussion. It is in proper intended alignment.

Brad from Canada was my guest this particular weekend. We met because of Beachcats.com.

--
Philip
--

nohuhu

Didn't seem right to me that a rusty old grommet and some thin webbing would be secure enough for multiple capsizes. (Picture ripping the tramp a new one and watching the boat float away with the rope still in your hands).

If that grommet is present, the tramp maker made it strong= toothed grommet and strong fabric backup. It was a standard on Prindles for nearly four decades without a recall for failure. The rest of the tramp will fail before that grommet will.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Had my righting line on prior Prindle 18 through grommet with figure eight knot on original Prindle tramp and then on Slo tramp. Use for eight years this way and never had any problems. Righted boat numerous times with and without crew on righting line without any problems. No sign of stress or tear around grommet that righting line was through. I agree that I would not tie righting line to dolphin striker.

--
Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
--

spoulton

Had my righting line on prior Prindle 18 through grommet with figure eight knot on original Prindle tramp and then on Slo tramp. Use for eight years this way and never had any problems. Righted boat numerous times with and without crew on righting line without any problems. No sign of stress or tear around grommet that righting line was through. I agree that I would not tie righting line to dolphin striker.

Any righting advice for this boat Scott? Only flipped it once and it gave us a hard time, putting her into the 20mph wind. Haven't had issues with other big boats. Plus, my hulls are super slick.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

For those concerned about bending the ds rod, you may just tie the loop up with a lanyard, for peace of mind.

For my righting line, I took each end and tied it off to the front hull posts and ran the slack down the middle of my tramp lacing. If I go over I just pull it out of the lacing flip it over the hull and lean out makes a nice loop to hold onto also.

--
Tim geyer
1980 hobie 16 "last chance"
Fairview heights IL
--

Quote

nohhu Any righting advice for this boat Scott? Only flipped it once and it gave us a hard time, putting her into the 20mph wind. Haven't had issues with other big boats. Plus, my hulls are super slick.

First I would make sure that any rivets or screws on the mast area sealed (I used a clear silicone sealant on all of these). Any water in the mast will make it near impossible to right. I un-cleat main (travler and sheet) and jib and use righting line with figure eight knots tied at intervals for better grip (although agree that loop for trap harness placed at correct height on righting line would be better option). I am 240 lbs and in this situation that is a good thing. Once the boat is on its way over, I swim under and grab dolphin striker to prevent boat from flipping to opposite side.



Edited by spoulton on Aug 14, 2017 - 05:41 PM.

--
Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
--

Flyinghobiefun, your idea of a righting line appeals to me. If I'm understanding it correctly, you have two lines to hang onto (even though it is a single piece of rope). Since I use a righting pole, balance at times is challenging. Having my hands spread apart would help considerably. For me, I just have a hard time picturing things from written descriptions. It would really be helpful if you could post a diagram or photo. Thanks.

MN3, in your July 24th post you mention carrying an anchor to use when things haven't gone real well. I like you idea, but the only thing is where the dickens do you stow and secure an anchor on a H 16. Thanks.

A sea anchor would probably be equally effective at holding the boat head-to-wind and could be stored in a small pouch under the tramp with much reduced risk of causing damage or injury as compared to a steel anchor.

sm

catman42

MN3, in your July 24th post you mention carrying an anchor to use when things haven't gone real well. I like you idea, but the only thing is where the dickens do you stow and secure an anchor on a H 16. Thanks.

yes that can be a little bit of an issue but can easily be overcome
I currently carry a #7 alum fortress anchor - they are not cheap but work great (in my conditions) and very light weight

when i had hobie's i would attach a small (but hearty) bag to a tiedown spot (i think i used a hiking strap) stick the anchor and bunch of the line in there when stowed. the bag didn't need to be zipped up. this completely "hid" all the sharp corners and was very accessible

a lot of the guys around here stick the "prongs" into their tramp pocket and let the rest of the anchor hang out
i don't care for this because it eventually stretches/rips a little

Catman42 easiest way to think of it is as a Y the top is attached to the posts then I pull it forward to find the middle of the rope then feed it in between my laces on my tramp completing the Y. The laces on a hobie 16 are like a oval and go over and under with space between then that's where I feed it through. If I ever figure out how to upload photos from my phone to the website I could show you. Maybe pm me and I can send it to you in a text or email

--
Tim geyer
1980 hobie 16 "last chance"
Fairview heights IL
--