Help settle a discussion, should a 180lb sailor be able to reliably right an H18 solo using the Murray's Big Cat Righting Bag? Hard to find consensus on this one.

(Assume good technique, experienced sailor, no problem righting with crew, etc)

Thanks!



Edited by warhovs on Jun 15, 2017 - 07:29 AM.

yes - absolutely yes - hell yes
I have done it many times solo on my h18 and mystere 5.5

- it's all about technique

I watched my friend solo right his Mystere 6.0 fully rigged (spin) with just one bag

I have the Colorado Bag Co, big bag. I think it is 10gal, & I used it successfully on a Nacra 5.0, N5.7, & H18.
When testing it, I flipped the N5.7(19') on a nearly calm day. It took the entire bag full, I only weigh 170lb.
If there is any wind you need less water, & once the wind is appx 20mph, I can right it just by hiking, the wind on the tramp works in your favour.
I would suggest a 3:1 purchase, with cleat, to attach the bag to the righting line. It is very difficult to hoist a full bag up, then hold it as you hike.
With a purchase you can easily hoist the bag exactly where you need it, then simply step inside the line & hike out.
I use this-


--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Couple of righting bags on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Black-Righting-Bucket-for-hobie-nacra-prindle-cat-/391691115125?hash=item5b329c1a75:m:mmTT0kBLw8DtANcvCOvjEvw

Murrays look a bit nicer...anyone use one of the above?

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Steve
Nacra Inter 20
Okemos Michigan
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I haven't seen 180 pounds in long enough not to be able to comment on that... it should work, though.

I use the Murray's bag, which leaked a fair bit out the seams (not the fabric, just the seams). I used $5 Wall-mart water-based seam sealer (from the camping section) and that decreased the leaks to just a dribble.

I also used 1/2" flexible PVC to create a 'rim' to keep the bucket open and even float a little. It all pops apart and fits in a skinny mesh bag I keep clipped to the front of the tramp.

Randii



Edited by randii on Jun 16, 2017 - 12:22 PM.

All day man. I have, or had a home made water bag the same size. Friend lost it in a race last month, gotta make me a new one now. You won't need it but half full or so. First time is awkward, then it's easy. I didn't have any blocks to help lift it either. Just a loop in my righting rope above my head. Key is to have a loop at the bottom of your righting rope to hang off of with your harness hook. You'll figure out if it's too high or low.

Then just lean out and pull the bag up and balance the rope between your neck and shoulder. You'll have both hands free to make it easy if you are hanging from your harness. You have to keep lifting the bag a bit higher than you think because as the boat starts to come up it puts the water weight back in the lake. Make sure to keep the end of the bag tied off to something while ur filling it too. The current can pull it out of your hands pretty easy. I almost lost mine a few times. I'm 6'3 170 btw



Edited by tamumpower1 on Jun 15, 2017 - 11:37 PM.

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Edited by tamumpower1 on Jun 15, 2017 - 11:36 PM.

When solo sailing,I use a shroud extender along with the Colorado Bag Co. big bag to right my Hobie 21SE without any problem. I also use a block and tackle system to lift this heavy bag out of the water.

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Bill 404 21SE
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Bill - do you use any system to insure your mast doesn't worm out during righting with your shroud extenders open?

MN3

Bill - do you use any system to insure your mast doesn't worm out during righting with your shroud extenders open?

The H21 has a captive ball and socket mast step system. As long as he has the pin in, the mast will not pop out.

sm

cool

Quote

The H21 has a captive ball and socket mast step system. As long as he has the pin in, the mast will not pop out.

I have not had any problem with my shroud extenders since buying my boat new in '89....I always retract and tighten my shroud once the boat has been righted.

I have only capsized maybe twice in the last decade....so I sail very carefully these days...

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Bill 404 21SE
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So if you get thrown off the boat how to you reach the shroud extender with the hull way up in the air? I could see pulling it before I jump down if I don't fall but otherwise it seems like it would be a problem

Matt,
It is not easy to reach that Johnson Marine Quick Release Lever but necessary.I cling to the high wing seat during a capsize if I can or I quickly climb up there and pull the fast pin. Now the weight of that "high" hull stabilizes a bad situation preventing a turtle. Now chill up there for a moment and attach a short line to the shroud base and sent it over that high hull so I can attach my righting bag block system to it. Fill that big bag with water and use that blocks to right the boat. Once the boat is right , quickly retract that shroud and all is good.

I solo sail and need to be self sufficient.The 21SE is a big and very stable boat.

If I am sailing with crew, we simply use my big cat righting system.

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Bill 404 21SE
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This discussion got me busy because I think I will be doing more solo sailing on the 5.2 than I used to do. I also don't have the lightning fast reflexes that I once had, so sorting out answers for a solo righting are going to be very real now.

I looked at Ed's setup and was impressed. Then I saw the bag shown on Ebay and went for it. The bag is well sewn and has a pair of cross straps and a stiff enough rope around the top rim to help hold it open when you are filling it, but not so stiff as to be an issue when storing it and it was a whopping $55. When it arrived I used some seam sealer I had to help it hold water long enough for me to dick around setting it up. Then I dug into my box of misc. stuff and came up with a 3 part block, found some line and an old carabiner. My righting line already has some loops on prussiks that can be slid up and down, so I am thinking I can just clip this doodad into the loop and haul away. So in theory, so far so good.







And the whole thing set me back a total of $55 plus the stuff I already had laying around just waiting for this project.



Edited by dmgbear55 on Jul 08, 2017 - 06:11 PM.

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dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
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Quote

so I am thinking I can just clip this doodad into the loop and haul away. So in theory, so far so good.

but how are you going to stow that scaffold on your catamaran?

That is just my folding anchor. It fits neatly in the pocket on the tramp.

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dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
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dmgbear55

That is just my folding anchor. It fits neatly in the pocket on the tramp.

touche'

Quote

I also used 1/2" flexible PVC to create a 'rim' to keep the bucket open and even float a little.

Note about these bags - they don't float (unless you add a float to them)


there is little time to fuss with the bag as your catamaran is righting above your head (and occasionally capsizing to the other side)

i recommend a nice stopper knot at the end of your rope - to avoid the bag and rope sliding out and away

Stopper knot is already there, but maybe adding a little bit of closed cell foam would help to float the whole thing. So you can at least see it drifting rapidly away from you when you drop the thing.

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dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
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Quote

Stopper knot is already there, but maybe adding a little bit of closed cell foam would help to float the whole thing. So you can at least see it drifting rapidly away from you when you drop the thing.

Not a bad idea

I had stopper knots in my last 2 bags
did not help at all when they both fell off my boat and sank post a real rough capsize and mast stuck in the muck (i couldn't figure out for the life of me why i couldn't right the boat - then my friend pulled up on his cat, and walked over to my mast in the shallows)

I tie my Colorado Bag Company bag to the boat (from the bottom of the bag with a decent length of 1/4" line) so when the boat comes up and I unclip the bag (now full of water and acting like a sea anchor) from my righting line and then it will drag behind my boat (empty, rather than acting like a sea anchor) and I can pull it back in and stow it easily.

I can right my Nacra 5.8 solo and i'm 180lbs. (i just did it twice this last week for the first time ever, so even a complete noob can do it).

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1987 Nacra 5.8
1978 Isotope (sold)
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There are two similar strings going here tonight on these righting bags.

I added a chunk of closed cell foam to the tackle line next to the stopper knot. I don't think it will get in the way and not so big a chunk that it will interfere with the use of the line. Hopefully the chunk is big enough to float the metal bits in the rig high enough to give me a chance to retrieve everything as it floats away or starts to sink.

I don't see any "easy" way to do a line from the bottom of the bag. I for sure don't want to pierce the bag.

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dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
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I'm not sure why there is even a discussion on losing your righting bag, & attempting to solve a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. Your righting bag is secured to the righting line, no?
If it isn't, do it, & forget about foam/floats etc.
Go back to page 1 of this thread & look at my setup. In the photo, the left side of the purchase attaches to the righting line with a short piece of Spyderline.
Flip your boat on it's side,(in the water), toss the righting line over the hull & determine where the bag needs to be attached to the righting line. Tie a knot at that spot,(to prevent the bag slipping down), then attach the bag just above the knot. You only need 3:1, & I found it better to rig it as shown so that you pull upwards to raise the bag & cleat
Now stuff everything inside the bag, roll it up into a small package, & secure to the tramp. I tie it near the front beam onto a hiking strap.
Next time you find yourself lying on your side, undo the bag, shake the line out, & toss it over the hull. You might have to scrunch the bag up to effectively toss it.
GPS shows righting the 5.0, & being underway in 3 minutes, with no worry about dropping 8 losing the dammed bag.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Ed,
Maybe you sail solo exclusively, so permanent attachment of a bag to the righting line would make sense. But if you are sailing double handed the bag would only be in the way for righting and completely unneeded on the boat, so for those of us that do not want the bag in the way all the time a small degree of added protection that doesn't interfere with the operation seems to make sense. I did look at your setup it is quite substantial and expensive, not to mention heavier than needed. All that is required is the 3 to 1 block or similar, tieing the line off is simple enough without needing a rarely used cleat, if the bag is full at 10 gallons it is about 83 lbs., holding off 1/3 of that weight is about 28 lbs. and that is not that hard to do the once in a blue moon you need to use the bag and tie it off.

The floating away thing is actually a joke. I am quite certain that I can easily manage clipping the bag on the righting line without losing it, literally or figuratively.

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dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
--

Well, each to his own, but really, you have to stow the righting line anyway. The line takes up much more space than the bag. Stuffing the line into the bag solves stowing it. On the uncluttered tramp of the 5.7, I've never found it gets in the way, even with 3 or 4 people on the boat. Ditto with the H18. Tie it near the front beam, nobody sits there anyway.
The purchase & bag weigh about 2lb, so I don't worry about the extra weight.
I do find the purchase/cleat essential. We've messed around seeing how long we can keep it on one hull, loser supplies beer. That means you tend to keep it further over than ideal sailing dictates, & we do go swimming. At 170lb, if the wind is light, I need quite a bit of the bag filled, certainly more than 28lb,(my buddy is 28lb heavier than me, & he can't solo right the 5,0 unless the wind is about 20)
For the couple of ounces the cleat weighs, it just makes life simple to hoist the bag, then get yourself into position, & hike. Especially if it's near the end of a long day & I'm getting tired.
You are correct in probably not needing it when crewed, but my lake is 450 sq miles, & quite a lot of it is barren of any traffic, especially after Sept 1 long weekend. End of Sept, & Oct we can sail without seeing anything else on the lake.
I always sail with the assumption my crew will not be able to assist with righting, or I may be partially disabled. I did break an ankle a couple of years ago when we flipped the 20' Mystere.
In my mind the few ounces of a cleat is cheap insurance as rescue may not be imminent.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

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The floating away thing is actually a joke. I am quite certain that I can easily manage clipping the bag on the righting line without losing it, literally or figuratively.

not a joke at all: i lost 2 bags that sank in cold water - i wasn't going diving/digging for them after the fact (the fact was it was a bad capsize, that left my mast unknowingly stuck in shallows, i was exahsted from this and i had a local police boat on top of me, asking me all sorts of questions as my gear sank)

I also know first hand of very experienced sailors losing a bag during righting, as there are many things going on at the same time often

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But if you are sailing double handed the bag would only be in the way for righting and completely unneeded on the boat

Never know - you may have damage to something that is changing the dynamics - i have seen masts fill with water stopping a boat from being righted by 2 people -



Edited by MN3 on Jul 12, 2017 - 08:12 AM.