OK, the current line is a static line (non bungee) 22ft long 10mm line that is moldy and needs replaced. It's tied at both ends to the back xcrossbar, goes forward on both sides underneath of the hull through blocks at each front corner, then to center of the tramp and then the excess is twisted and woven between the center tramp heading aft. At the end of the "loop" there is another block which rests at about mid tramp. I presume this block is for another line which retrieves the righting line after use. Now imagine standing on waterside hull as boat is on its side. Simply pull down and the line escapes the tramp and the loop is extended to full length. Used in this fashion, it appears the fulcum would be the underneath of both front and back xbeams on the high hull.

Shouldn't a righting line be over the hull not drawn from corners of the crossbars from underneath the hull? Plus how would one know if this line is too long or too short to provide enough pulling power unless you were in the water with the boat on its side? Leaning back in the loop tugging at both ends etc...
Now I've looked at other righting systems...using bungee. How can a stretchy line gain enough leverage that this static system might have been used instead, the woven part, to take up slack, instead of using bungee.

(I realize there are many techniques for individual preferences, but if this owner figured out something that is just as effective, why not just replace the line as it was used previously?) I have a line that I could use. I don't have 22' of bungee! Cost savings...

I'm thinking just replace the line, then take a minimal righting line along too that is attached to the dolphin striker as backup in case the "loop" underneath isn't the right length or is not effective. Sorry about the long wind, but wanted to get you as much info as possible. I'm 6' 200lb and only go out when it's windy so I want to be ready for a swim on my first ride.

Any suggestions? (Yes, I'll have another crew member to help with any righting)

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Sounds like what you have on your boat is an attempt at the "Hawaiian" righting system, but no bungee to actually retract the righting line. The idea with all of these self-retracting systems is that you pull on the righting line until the line itself supports you, not the bungee cord. The problem is that when you're pulling on the line, you end up fighting the bungee cord and that makes things difficult.

Your question about whether the line should go under or over the hull is one that has been asked for decades. It's really a simple question, however. The boat doesn't "care" whether the line goes over or under the hull. All the boat cares about is where your center of gravity is located - the farther out the better. This is what determines whether or not you right the boat. The placement of the line affects how comfortable the line is for YOU to hold onto, with the objective being to get your body laid out as horizontal as possible while still being out of the water. So having the line thrown over the hull makes it easier to hold onto.

Most experienced sailors seem to gravitate back to the simplest righting system which is just a line tied to the dolphin striker and thrown over the upper hull. Unless you capsize a lot, this system seems to work the best and provide the most ease and versatility. It also allows you to take the line and wrap it around your harness hook so you take the load off your arms when righting the boat.

Another thing to keep in mind, if you're sailing the 18 solo at 200lbs, it is likely that you're not going to have enough weight to get the boat up after capsize without assistance.

sm

Dogboy

.....

Most experienced sailors seem to gravitate back to the simplest righting system which is just a line tied to the dolphin striker and thrown over the upper hull. .....

Another thing to keep in mind, if you're sailing the 18 solo at 200lbs, it is likely that you're not going to have enough weight to get the boat up after capsize without assistance.

sm

I agree with both these points. I've rigged about every variation of retractable righting systems known and have gone back to a thick cheap light rope tied to the dolphin striker and stuffed in a tramp pocket. Thick rope is a lot easier to hold on to, just don't get something that will absorb water since it will add weight and get moldy.

Keep in mind that the reason retracting righting line systems were invented was to get sailing again faster when racing but for recreational sailing you can take your time.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Also if 200lbs won't do it on a honking big rope tied to the dolphin, how big a canvass bag do I need carry when solo. 5 gals?
Besides, since I'm not racing, and have plenty of time to fool around, wouldn't tying a bowline up the mast and thrown across the hull provide more leverage than tied to the dolphin. I believe I saw an illustration demonstrating righting moment on the net somewhere showing more leverage with that rope positioning.

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5 Galon bag "should" be good but it all depends on wind, waves, the boat facing the right direction ect. I agree with above posts.... I now right my Hobie 20 and Hobie 16 using a plain fat rope ( about 20' long ) tucked into a tramp bag as well. After a capsize, whip that joker over the top hull ( easer to hang on if over top hull ) and pour on the weight. Even on the 20 if others are nearby and someone swims over to me all it takes is the swimmer to swim up behind me and give a few tugs on the slack rope and the boats pop right up, id imagine 40lb of water in the bag would do the same. All of this assuming your mast is sealed and doesn't take on water!

Prob best advice is if you have any reservation about taking out a big heavy boat solo and there's a chance the wind is going to pick up and overpower you, think twice so you don't get stuck in a bad situation :)

Tim



Edited by fxloop on Feb 06, 2015 - 08:27 PM.

--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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Quote

After spending a few years on your boat you'll know where that fine line is!

I wish I had my iphone to take that picture of my newly painted Laser, Interlux Ft. Lauderdale Blue that we carried to the top of the jetty after the boom broke off and I was blown into the rocks. Fortunately someone on the beach came to my aid and we carried the stuff to the top of the jetty, for tow on the other side where the inlet was. Would have made a nice pic with the Bay Bridge in the background. Yes knowing the fine lines is about getting out there and doing it.... I'll look for the canvass bucket. Perhaps I'll have more questions about depowering, should I get overpowered on the HC.

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18'+ Cats get powered up in a hurry with winds over 15MPH! I've been sailing on our lake locally with me and crew on my 20 and seen Damon's eyes open really wide 100 yards away ( sailing solo on his 18 ) when the wind hit the lake in front of an oncomming storm. My butt puckered for about 10 mins and I had about 400lb holding my boat down!! You DO have a furling jib right ;) Grab a righting bucket and 30' of fat rope and you're covered.

--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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With two persons righting is easy. Be carreful not to loop the line over your hand if your partner is grabbing it from below...i almost did it but realised a few milliseconds before it happened.....still scares me to think about it

A righting bag has a marginal effect, it didn't work for me the only time i tried it. If you don't want to rely on technique and a minimum wind, use a righting pole. This one or a variation of can be very reliable

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hCbihZsXESg

Quote

This one or a variation of can be very reliable

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hCbihZsXESg

Not that this thread was to discuss righting techniques... I've seen this vid before and after seeing how far out the guy stands on the board I can see where a bag of water would have to be further out, not dropped directly below your shoulder. Doesn't this righting pole put a lot of stress on the inside of the dagger board well walls?

Also, in talking about righting, how about not letting the boat go over in the first place? what is the technique for getting the boat down so that you won't go over. Rudder? Sheet? crawling out on the upper dagger board etc.. How far is too far, that letting it out will have no effect. Or never fly a hull etc...

--
Goodsailing

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H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
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I think the daggerboard well is strong enough. But in my case i found it easier to make a loop at the end of the pole, with a strap, and put it around the daggergoard. Just needed the strap and a couple rivets with washers. My pole is much longer (righting pole i mean...), so i dont need to stand on the end of it. I store it under the tramp but along the hulls, not across. Close to one hull so you dont hurt your feet if you walk over it.

Regarding technique to avoid capsizing, playing eith the mainsheet is the modt effective, dont cleat it when its rough. But you will capsize most likely, when you least exepect. When capsized the boat normally moved faster than you can swim, if you are two, one can be left behind and the other will have to right the boat by himself, if he can't and eind is blowing off shore, both will need a rescue. (Based on a true story!)
Righting system is a safety device, don't underestimate it

Sorry for the typos
Here is my system, i cut the pole not far from the rope attachment, after testing on the water on a calm morning. The righting line attached at the dolphin striker is still necessary, or makes it easier.
http://youtu.be/DKuSSZ7JxBA

Tieing the righting line high on the mast will make absolutely no difference. As I said before, the boat only "cares" about the location of your center of gravity. All that matters is how much you weigh and how far you can get your weight out away from the bottom hull. Where the righting line is tied makes no difference at all with respect to getting the boat to come up.

Regarding carryiing a 5 gallon water bag, i really doubt that is going to do the trick. A H18 needs close to 300lb of crew weight to be righted reliably in all conditions. 5 gallons of water works out to roughly 40lbs. Not gonna cut it for a 200lb solo sailor.

sm

Guess that leaves the righting pole, or 9' sculling oar... oh, OK so I use the sculling oar to get out the inlet to the where the wind is, put the sail up, then when I tip over I use the pole/oar to right the boat. I got it, thanks.

--
Goodsailing

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H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
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Whatever system you go with, I suggest you figure it out and make sure it works consistently well for you in a controlled setting before you find yourself in a situation where you actually NEED it. Trying to MacGyver a righting system out of a piece of line and an oar while your boat is on it's side or turtled out in open water has Coast Guard rescue written all over it.

sm

Quote

Whatever system you go with, I suggest you figure it out and make sure it works consistently well for you in a controlled setting before you find yourself in a situation where you actually NEED it. Trying to MacGyver a righting system out of a piece of line and an oar while your boat is on it's side or turtled out in open water has Coast Guard rescue written all over it.

There's a pond inside the inlet, where the coast guard keep their boats, as a place to practice/rig righting techniques. Or can be done on the grass to get the lines the right length. Makes little sense to experiment with a safety system in open water, unless of course you have a motor boat, dinghy along side to aid with any rescue. Thanks for you help.

--
Goodsailing

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Quote

Also, in talking about righting, how about not letting the boat go over in the first place

you can avoid ALL capsizes by sailing very slow and only in very light air

but i prefer to sail it like i stole it, know how to avoid capsize (while going upwind head up and sheet and travel the out) OR steer "down" when going downwind

and most importantly, practice capsizing a few times so you know how to right your boat

Power poles work but require extra fixed gear under the boat (i am not a big fan of all that)
bags work (most of the time) if you know how to use them

I have successfully solo righted my 5.5 with a single large murray's bag
I have also (in heavy air/wave conditions) been unable to right my 5.5 with a single large murray's bag and even a second bag and have had to wait for help... not fun

goodsailing

Besides, since I'm not racing, and have plenty of time to fool around, wouldn't tying a bowline up the mast and thrown across the hull provide more leverage than tied to the dolphin.

It wasn't crystal clear, but the post above did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat. It's tied up near the mast base and deployed up over the tramp and over the top of the skyward hull. Mine on my Hobie 16 is actually tied to the front beam around the mast base to avoid any chance of bending the striker.



Edited by rattlenhum on Feb 10, 2015 - 12:30 PM.

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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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+1

Quote

did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat.

i personally wrap my righting line knot around the mast base.. i would rather replace that 1 part (if it ever failed from righting) than all the parts in my DS system

Quote

you can avoid ALL capsizes by sailing very slow and only in very light air

I'll try that only once to ensure everything is set up right, and to get familiar with the boat. After that.. l only go out when it's windy.

--
Goodsailing

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haha!

I used to hate and avoid light air (and low tide) days... but here in the gulf of mehico, we can have all weather conditions possible (excluding snow/ice) all in the same day ...

summer time means light winds until (and if) the seabreaze kicks in around 1 pm

I have found that light air sailing is very challenging and very rewarding now that i can sail (pretty) well in light air

goodsailing

Quote

you can avoid ALL capsizes by sailing very slow and only in very light air

I'll try that only once to ensure everything is set up right, and to get familiar with the boat. After that.. l only go out when it's windy.

MN3

I have found that light air sailing is very challenging and very rewarding now that i can sail (pretty) well in light air

Please share one or two key tips

For me, when there are still waves but little wind, it's more about stabilizing the mast and traveler to have some peace.. That's one of the few cases where I use the mast rotator and now I have a traveler set up that allows me to fix it at a given position. Other than that, I care more about how to make a decent pillow and find some shadow under the sails..

MN3

+1

Quote

did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat.

i personally wrap my righting line knot around the mast base.. i would rather replace that 1 part (if it ever failed from righting) than all the parts in my DS system

My tramp has a groomet at the center of the front beam, almost touching it. So I wrap the line around the main beam, the DS acts as a stopper (and not the groomet). So the line may also be a towing line, if passed through the connection of both bridles and stay (in my case a hole at the center of the bow foil). Instead of storing the line in the tramp pocket, it goes around the bow foil and back to the mast base, tied with a quick knot.

This way I also avoid messing with the halyards inside the tramp pocket when I take the righting line

Andinista

Please share one or two key tips

sure
1. if you have very light air .... don't tack, stay on that line until you absolutely HAVE to change tacks
2. keep weight near the mast (move capt & crew) - have your crew on the low side if possible (and sit still)
3. in air less than 4 knots - on my boat i use LOTS of downhaul and sheet the main very tight

I do exactly the opposite in 3.. what would be the logic? You also use the traveler centered?

Andinista

I do exactly the opposite in 3.. what would be the logic? You also use the traveler centered?

it works

has something to do with the way the air flows off the sail in light air - i can't find the reference

MN3

3. in air less than 4 knots - on my boat i use LOTS of downhaul and sheet the main very tight

No disrespect, but that isn't going to work on a H18. I've been racing them for A LOT of years and no way I would crank down super hard on mainsheet and downhaul in very light wind. You want to be very "tender" with the mainsheet tension in light air. You are walking a very fine line between sheeting in far enough to get the most power out of the available breeze and over-sheeting and killing everything. If you hook the upper section of the sail, you will kill all your power. There is no set and forget mode in the light stuff - you have to make constant micro-adjustments.

The best light wind tuning accessory on a Hobie 18, IMO, is two pairs of telltails placed about 1/3 of the way back in the second and third panels down from the top. Trim your sheet to keep those telltails flowing, and if you lose flow on the leeward side, ease the sheet an inch or two. It all comes down to very fine tuning. In very light wind, you may even want to turn off the ratchet on your main block for a better feel. There's a saying - when in doubt, let it out. You never want to lose flow on the leeward side of the sail, and over sheeting will do just that.

sm

I agree that sailing fast in slack wind takes as much skill as handling a boat in strong wind. But going slower in a sailboat than what you can paddle is really the pits! That's why Windfinder.com is bookmarked and used to schedule sailboat outings.

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Goodsailing

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Quote

No disrespect, but that isn't going to work on a H18

I sail mystere's - I have a 5.5 and a 6.0

and i meant main outhaul, not mainsheet

I asked on the "other forum" - got this:
check the bottom two paragraphs of page 1 here.
http://www.interlakesaili…org/myfiles/lightair.pdf

Key points seem to be not have too much camber/draft allowing premature separation and don't let the leach hook



From link:

While one might think that a very full sail would be necessary to give the boat the power it needs, in most cases a flatter sail will perform better. The simple theory is that a full, baggy sail requires more "wind bending"; that is, the wind has to curve around the sail more, which gives the airflow more of a chance to break up and become turbulent. A flatter shape allows the airflow to remain attached - so leave the outhaul fairly tight to help keep the lower section of the main flatter and the leech more open.

Another way to do this is to ease the Cunningham, allowing the draft to move aft slightly. In most conditions the main is trimmed so the upper batten is parallel to the boom when sighted from underneath. In light winds this is virtually impossible, due to the weight of the boom hanging on the leech of the main. It is not unusual for the main leech to hook badly, sometimes as much as 10 to 20 degrees to weather of the foot. Although this looks bad, it is frequently beneficial to have the mainsail shape a bit rounder in the after sections. This will induce slight weather helm, and help get optimum
pointing capability.



Edited by MN3 on Feb 12, 2015 - 03:05 PM.

Quote

But going slower in a sailboat than what you can paddle is really the pits!

paddling is the worst, and just slightly better than sitting still or being pushed by the tide and baking in the fl sun in the summer.

that doesn't mean i will rig with the intent of sailing in 3 knots of wind (unless i expect that to change later in the day), but as i originally stated, i am starting to enjoy light air sailing a lot more now that i can do it somewhat well

having a big spinnaker makes it a lot more fun too

I understand suffering until the wind picks up. I was out in the bay. It was windy. The wind suddenly quit. I felt stranded--for 3 hours. Then low and behold black clouds came with wind and I was able to get back to the ramp.
Although this is technical thread, I'm not sure I understand why, but when it's windy there's hardly any sailboats out! Even on the dive boat in FL over Christmas, 4ft swells, 20 knot wind and not a sailboat in sight around Hillsboro Inlet. Why have a sailboat if your not going out when its windy?

--
Goodsailing

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Quote

Why have a sailboat if your not going out when its windy?

everyone has a different "perfect condition"

I don't care for sailing my cat in any swells at all, and above 20 isn't really fun for me. It's wet, and wild, slip-and-capsize.

I admit, it's a rush and good workout and I always feel "i survived" after sailing in 20, or 30 knot winds, but i don't care for it nor need it.


I am spoiled (sail a lot) and prefer 10 - 15 where everything isn't "do or die",

I did JUST buy a new cat with a 31' mast that has a reefing system (and matching sail)

....that might change everything... :)



Edited by MN3 on Feb 12, 2015 - 04:59 PM.

Quote

I did JUST buy a new cat with a 31' mast that has a reefing system (and matching sail)

....that might change everything... :)

If it's the 10' beam Mystere, they are some sweet boats, especially when the water gets rough. I found that boat to be a be-itch to right. Even with the large bag, I needed help. The wide beam means you can't use the traveler cleat casting as a foot brace, it's easy to go sliding down the tramp if the hull comes way up.
The hardest thing after sailing it was to jump back on a 17' boat, it seemed like you were stuck in a closet, the real estate, or lack of it, on the tramp is very noticeable.

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Quote

everyone has a different "perfect condition

There's a lot of sailboats in South Florida, not just cats, but, Hunters, Pearsons, Cals etc, that during the Holiday one would think there would have been at least 1 sailboat in the ocean when the wind was 15-20. I believe the sport is limited to racing mostly as even around here, there are not many sailboats in the water, other than specific classes during races. For those who don't race, my question remains, not to be answered per se, but why have a sailboat if you don't use it when the winds are favorable to enjoy sailing? (Excluding the use of a sailboat as a liveaboard, that hardly moves) I agree that 10-18 is probably ideal for most small craft. The Laser actually slows down beyond 20 as it becomes over powered. 15 is ideal.
What, burning incense as a way to chart wind direction?--- you've got to be kidding...

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Goodsailing

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Here in Chile I haven't seen that sailors prefer to sail in winds below 15-20, they'll be sailing under these conditions. What I've seen, though, is that 20 years ago dinghy and cat sailing was maybe 90% recreational and 10% racing and today it's the opposite. Sailing was more popular and there were more sails in the water on non-regatta days or on lakes or beaches where regattas are not common. There were more junky boats with dirty sails, too. Today you see lots of F18 and shiny lasers in the few specialized lakes or beaches and that's it.

Bottom line:
Sailing has become increasingly elitist. Today you can choose basically between three options:
- Tech racing boats, very expensive, not recreational (made for the pro and rich)
- Recreational and expensive boats like the getaway (made for the non pro and rich)
- Middle class decent enough boats rescued from the 80s or 90s, for the true recreational sailors that still survive...

Quote

If it's the 10' beam Mystere,

No, it's a xl 8'6"

Better start eating triple cheeseburger, with double fries & 8 beers...everyday!
Or find a beefy crew, or two, or a bunch of fun girls.
I know you have beaucoup experience, & went into this with eyes open, but I found it to be a sneaky beast.
It's not a fault of the boat, it was never envisioned to be solo sailed. In a good breeze, with all senses on high alert, it's hard to beat. I never tipped it on a windy day.
It was those lazy days, when I was just drifting along, & perhaps crossed the tramp to change something. A
sudden puff, of only a few extra mph & you & you were swimming.
My 10' beam, with wings is 13.5' wide.
The photo is trapped off the wing, in only 7mph, & I can just barely hold it down. I realize I'm not piked out efficiently, but my feet are nearly 7' from the centre. I think the 8' beam will require even more finesse.
It helmed beautifully, two fingers on the stik, the rudders are far nicer than my 5.7.
Enjoy, & post some photos of that beast double trapped, with GPS speed.
Damon kindly posted the official manual for the boat, somewhere here, it was sent to me by Kasper, I can email it to you if you want, though there is probably nothing you don't already know..




Edited by Edchris177 on Feb 14, 2015 - 06:33 PM.

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Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
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Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Edited by MN3 on Feb 16, 2015 - 07:50 AM.

Not sure how the Mystere's hull is constructed, but if it's anything like most other symmetrical hulled boats, I would lose those single trailer rollers in a heart beat - especially the front ones. You sure don't want to punch one up through the bottom of the boat.

sm

Quote

I would lose those single trailer rollers in a heart beat - especially the front ones.

+1
All it takes is someone to hop up on the hull while trailed, to retrieve a hat, Frisbee etc. Makes cradles out of a piece of 12" green sewer pipe, it cuts easy with a re-cip saw. Even lifting the hull & slipping a 12" piece of plywood between hull & roller will give piece of mind.
Having gone over to the dark side you are now spoiled for life, "WINGS".
Backrest for lazy days, never eating spray in the face, hammock for chicks & kids. The girls who want to go on YOUR boat just tripled!
I secure a paddle under each wing tramp, out of the way & out of the sun.
Those look like the factory wings, an expensive option, just respect the weight limit on them. I've read posts re dragging them while flying a hull. The geometry on mine were such that if you ever dragged a wing, you were already swimming.
The only downside I find is they sometimes hang up a sheet when gybing the spin, & if you flip, the extra 15lb on the upper hull is also over-centred, making righting more difficult. The tapered mast does not give much flotation at the top. With the added turtling moment of the wings, you may decide a small mast float is a good idea.
On the other hand, the wing in the water creates a lot of drag, helping to right, & also pretty much stopping drift once the mast is into the wind.
I would remove all beam bolts & Teff-Gel them in your climate. The only thing I had break was those delrin fittings that connect the tie bar to the tillers. My boat was 2001, not sure if they're the same as your 5.5. Yves in Montreal has them, or if you can make them from an old seized spreader arm from a Nacra, it's the perfect diametre. I took photos while making them, but haven't put up an album yet. They are not quite a simple as two holes drilled in a piece of plastic.
Make an album, & show that beast off.



Edited by Edchris177 on Feb 16, 2015 - 02:17 PM.

--
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Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Quote

I would lose those single trailer rollers in a heart beat - especially the front ones.

Quote

+1

been parking my mystere 5.5 like this for 8 years in this spot.
Othere mystere's for a decade or two.

Quote

Those look like the factory wings,

they are not - the entire boat was tore down and re-built. about 500 man hours at a local sailing shop by an experienced boat welder/mystere owner



Edited by MN3 on Feb 16, 2015 - 04:00 PM.

Looks like you got fantastic build, especially since you can sail it all year.
I endorsed Dogboys recommendation because I saw exactly that, at a sailing venue on Lake Ontario last summer.
In a rush to secure the boat from a fast approaching storm a chap hopped up onto the hull to grab a line...the soft "crunch" was not nearly as loud as the string of expletives that followed.
YMMV, but I would hate to see it happen to anyone's new toy.

PS I have not yet heard back from Yves re your parts...I'll resend the photo.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Edchris177

Looks like you got fantastic build

thanks, he did an amazing job.
I love all the custom welding he did

Quote

In a rush to secure the boat from a fast approaching storm a chap hopped up onto the hull to grab a line...the soft "crunch" was not nearly as loud as the string of expletives that followed.

what kinda boat?

Quote

I have not yet heard back from Yves re your parts...I'll resend the photo.

I am not holding my breath - but thanks

If the bottoms of the hulls are solid laminate, it may be OK for a while, but even the Hobie 17's and 18's will fail if they're overloaded on a single roller for a long period of time. More modern boats have cored hulls throughout and are therefore even less tolerant of high compressive point loads. If you look at the contact point between the single roller and the hull, you will see that it is an incredibly small area where the load is distributed across (likely on the order of 1 square inch or less). It's the nature of the beast when you have two curved surfaces in contact with each other. Factor in the weight of the boat, a couple hundred pounds from one or two people sitting on the boat in the wrong spot, or some heavy snow load, and it doesn't take much to punch the roller thru the hull. Single rollers on round hulls = not worth the risk IMO.

sm

Dogboy

If the bottoms of the hulls are solid laminate, it may be OK for a while, but even the Hobie 17's and 18's will fail if they're overloaded on a single roller for a long period of time.

I agree in general, just wanted to point out (for future newbies reading old threads) that the Hobie 17 is MUCH more lightly built than the H18 and should definitely have double rollers or cradles if possible. Never seen a problem on the "built like a tank" H18 but I do have double rollers rear and cradles out front on my trailer anyway. I had standard single rollers on my 1981 Hobie and even at my size never had the first problem with the hulls YMMV.

Here's what a little snow weight can do to a Hobie 17


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i will try not to be stubborn and hard headed (this isn't so easy for me) and i will look more into this - thanks



Edited by MN3 on Feb 17, 2015 - 01:32 PM.

fyi here is what the inside of that part of a mystere 6.0 looks like



think i'll look into double rollers :)



Edited by MN3 on Feb 17, 2015 - 01:31 PM.

What about Hobie 16s? I've got a 81' Hobie 16 on single rollers, front and back... Something to be concerned about or are they plenty tough enough?

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New thread title: "16-18' Beachcats, lines, sheets, trailering, welding and hull bottom preservation" hahaha.

I've had several old Hobie 16's that have sat for decades on trailers with single rollers with no obvious damage or I'll effects. On rounded bottom hull designs the weight needs to be distributed on the trailer. I've also noted that some people use ratchet straps over the tops of their hulls and crank them down super super tight for trailering and don't loosen them for storage. That will crush the rollers into the bottoms and create soft spots on decks on any fiberglass boat I'd imagine.

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$195 for 2 units
+ 40shipping

http://www.icarussportsus…essories/double-rollers/

MN3

i will try not to be stubborn and hard headed (this isn't so easy for me) and i will look more into this - thanksEdited by MN3 on Feb 17, 2015 - 01:32 PM.

MN3

$195 for 2 units
+ 40shipping

http://www.icarussportsus…essories/double-rollers/

Nice find, I didn't know those were commercially available. Looks like something that should be advertised on a website completely devoted to the boats these are designed for.

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My single roller on each side are slightly v-formed. Not sure if the double straight dia. rollers will offer much more weight distribution. I scoured construction site and found a section of water pipe but it was only 8". Not sure 8 will do it for cradle, probably need the 10" as suggested on the web. Or flip the hull and make a FB cradle using the hull as a form. More work, less play.

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Quote

New thread title: "16-18' Beachcats, lines, sheets, trailering, welding and hull bottom preservation" hahaha.

I tried to segment, but oh well, it's only a H18 with so few things to talk about.

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you should talk with your sales team

Quote

Looks like something that should be advertised on a website completely devoted to the boats these are designed for.

I am going to talk with my welder and see if we can fabricate for less

anyone interested in a set if we can?



Edited by MN3 on Feb 18, 2015 - 01:21 PM.

goodsailing

Quote

New thread title: "16-18' Beachcats, lines, sheets, trailering, welding and hull bottom preservation" hahaha.

I tried to segment, but oh well, it's only a H18 with so few things to talk about.

I (personally) like when threads meander around... that's how conversations are naturally

Does little though when the thread subject hits google and searchers for a particular topic have to pick through info to learn what they searched for. That said, and while we're on the subject of refurbing an H18 how about sailing one. Do you carry a large flat head screw driver with you to retract the rudders when on the boat. I can't see how to release the catch otherwise? Sure want to miss striking ground.

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goodsailing

Do you carry a large flat head screw driver with you to retract the rudders when on the boat. I can't see how to release the catch otherwise? Sure want to miss striking ground.

I'm assuming your 1978 H18 has the original metal-cam rudder casting? They changed in 1987 to a replaceable plastic cam system.

The rudders are supposed to be able to kick up, popping the rudder cam up, the resistance is supplied by a spring in the lower casting pressing upwards on the bottom of the cam. The spring tension is what determines how much pressure is required for the rudders to kick up.

If your trailer keeps the boat high enough that you can put the rudders locked down into sailing position, you can pull back on the end of the rudders to see if the cam will release. Don't break off a rudder by pulling with all of your might, pulling on the end of the blade should pop-up the rudders fairly easily. (in a fully working system)

Now the bad news is that the original rudder casting system was replaced because as it aged the metal cams (which can't be replaced) got deformed and at some point they just won't kick up at all. Even if you are coming back in through the surf towards the beach at high speed standing up on the tramp pulling on the rudder tiller arm as hard as you can. (yes, I know this for sure)

Your first step should be to take the lower casting off the boat, remove the plastic screw and spring, clean them and lube the spring and threads and reassemble. Then test operation. There is a good likelihood you won't be able to remove the plastic screw without destroying it. I had one once that was so stuck and boogered up I layed the casting in the driveway and used a torch to burn away the plastic. Then needed to buy a 3/4 10 tap to clean the threads out.

The replaceable parts in your casting look like this.


If your rudder system won't kick up after maintenance, then the only options are to sail it as a fixed rudder boat (don't hit anything) or spring for the upgrade kit.

http://www.murrays.com/50-60331010.html

http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures?g2_itemId=10836



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I can't see how to release the catch otherwise?

Rudder locking cams? I use my main sheet. Lift up the tiller crossbar throw a loop of slack over the cam and seat the line into it, pull forward and up hard and fast, sometimes I have to stand up a little to get the right angle.

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Quote

or spring for the upgrade kit

There's no cam, just aluminum latch and spring. I'll lube it to get it to work including the pull up method mention by fxloop. Otherwise at $700 upgrade kit, I'll carry the old flat head screw driver to release the latch. Cost: $0
The fixed down position is quite solid with no play.



Edited by goodsailing on Feb 18, 2015 - 03:20 PM.

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Do you carry a large flat head screw driver with you to retract the rudders when on the

I carry a small and light as possible tool kit, ever since my h18 stay pin broke on me out in the gulf of mexico (with an off shore wind). luckily another cat sailor saw me and a group helped me get onshore, and jerry-rigged with a g-cat stay pin

i always carry (unless reducing weight in a race):
water, sunscreen, anchor, paddle, righting bag
knife in pdf (and 20' thin vectran, & small multi-tool)
Toolkit - flat and philips, a few extra soft and hard shackles, few extra common screws, ringdings, drainplugs, cotter pins and 2part pool epoxy for underwater/on the fly repairs, also extra line
and a cell phone in a otter box, in a dry box

This time of year i also carry about 2-3 extra sets of clothing (top and bottom) incase i go swimming (or others)

Quote

They changed in 1987 to a replaceable plastic cam system.

I had this hobie multi tool that had a hook on it.
if you drilled a little hole in the center of the plastic cam (nearest the hook in the picture) you could use this tool to pop it back up - when i got good at it, i could do it on the fly if the cam ever got locked down by accident while launching or other


http://slhobie.com.au/hob…sailors-all-purpose-tool

When I go out I carry a vhf radio set to coast guard frequency in the event I can't self rescue. All measures are taken to self rescue as I really hate to encumber the CG. My dive knife with the blunt tip can serve as a tool I already have, in the event grease doesn't work. The goal: safely sail a Hobie Cat 18 as cheaply as possible.

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goodsailing

Do you carry a large flat head screw driver with you to retract the rudders when on the boat. I can't see how to release the catch otherwise? Sure want to miss striking ground.

You really should pop over to the Hobie 18 forum at the Hobie site for some of your questions. A lot of what you've asked has been discussed in great detail over there by some folks that are very familiar with the H18. Definitely dealing with the old style H18 rudder system is one of those topics. That said, here's what I have done to get the rudder system to work well. First thing you want to do is make sure the system is lubed properly. You want to carefully apply grease (I use automotive bearing grease) to the roller pin in the upper casting. On the lower casting, apply grease to the surface of the hook/latch that engages the roller pin. You want to use grease so it doesn't wash away, not too much though or i will become a dirty sandy mess.

Just adding grease will probably make a noticable improvement. If you want to take it a step further, loosen the large plastic screw on the lower casting. This is the screw which sets the preload on the hook/latch. You want to back it off almost all the way so the upper casting just barely "clicks" in. Then use 3/16" or 1/4" bungee wrapped around the rudder and rudder pin to hold the rudder down. With the system set up like this, the upper casting is really just keeping the rudder in position and the bungee cord does the majority of the holding down.

The original rudder system on the H18 can be a bit troublesome, but it can also be made to work. We've had our H18 since new in 1985 and I made the original rudder castings function well enough with these mods that the rudders will kick up reliably when hitting bottom, even when beaching in the surf. There are some other mods you can do too which involve filing the lower casting slightly.

sm

Quote

You really should pop over to the Hobie 18 forum at the Hobie site for some of your questions.

I've been there for answers and other places. Most all my questions have been answered thus far. I'll circle back here if needed. No one answered: sculling oar as righting pole. Nor is there anything on the web about sculling a cat out to the the wind area and using the pole for righting? I'll leave that to experimentation on the water. Perhaps then I can provide answers.

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I would stay away of aluminum tubes and get an old and cheap windsurf mast.
The first righting pole I made was like this one, made with an aluminum tube, it broke at the first trial on the water. I also found two additional problemas: in order to avoid back and forth swinging you need to have support from both sides, a righting line from the center of the front beam is not enough. Also when you walk above the tube, at the center of the tramp, it hurt your feet, specially when hoisting the mast.
For a hobie gary righting pole, you need a shorter pole and maybe an aluminum one might work.

I've seen your righting system. Yesterday I saw a frame contraption on Youtube that resembled a bed frame that swung out from stern. It was connected near front xbar or possibly on bar and rested under the tramp. The sailor swung it out perpendicular, jumped on it and righted the boat. It was interesting to note how far he climbed out along the horizontal beam before the boat started moving. I wish I could find the vid but it's buried in one of the cat sailing vids etc. It was a square with x beams going from corner to corner. This was perhaps the coolest righting system I've seen.

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where will you sail?
will you usually have crew?
will other catamarans be around>?


I just watched this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PredhB7nDI
i would NOT (edit) want to do that to my board/trunk area on my current boat, and can't really recall how hardy my h18 was enough to say - but it's hard to believe that doesn't risk crushing boat or board well


(Personally) before i added hardware under the boat (which i am not a fan of at all)
I would try solo righting with just a line (a 200lb guy should be able to right an h18 solo with good technique and in good conditions)
then I would try righting the boat with crew
then with a bag (solo and w crew)



Edited by MN3 on Feb 19, 2015 - 12:26 PM.

No need for a righting pole if you can't get to the place where the wind is. From Boston To Miami, unless you own beach front property you're limited to clubs with water access or boat ramps, which are typically limited to power boating not sailing. Try getting out of Hillsboro inlet in FL or via channel along side Chesapeake Bay Bridge at Sandy Point Park. Hence when you put in at the boat ramp, where space to sail is limited, and where it is typically sheltered from wind, you have to get from there out to the wind. Hence you need alternative power. A motor or an oar or get towed out. (I'm not carrying motor as then you have to register with the STATE plus you have the problem of holding battery etc and interference with tiller etc. ) Now I'm not sure if a sculling oar would work, but if you're talking righting pole. Why not use the sculling oar as a righting pole or vice versa. We know the pole works, but can you scull an 18' hobie cat with any amount of success? Just need oar lock on stern xbar I would imagine. Perhaps even rope would work.

Here's another example of righting pole, but in this case, you couldn't use this to scull. No blade and it's attached to the boat.

http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=14627

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Quote

Hillsboro inlet in FL

there is year round mast up storage in delray - i hear it's very cheap too

This video you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm5FIkmx8Ao
He forgot to uncleat the main, that's why he's way out and jumping....
The frame is a bit too much in my opinion. A simpler A frame would probably work, but again, I'm pretty sure these tubes below the tramp are a pain in the a$$. I store mine along the tramp but just a few inches away from one hull.

This guy solo rights his Hobie 18 pretty easily. Unrolling and attaching righting pole in rough choppy windy conditions looks like it would take quite some time to deploy tho.
http://youtu.be/NwZZX2ka820

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what he has on the ends of the pole look different, and what does he do with the board while he gets this system set up?

fxloop

This guy solo rights his Hobie 18 pretty easily. Unrolling and attaching righting pole in rough choppy windy conditions looks like it would take quite some time to deploy tho.
http://youtu.be/NwZZX2ka820

In my case all the lines are already in place and kept in place with bungees, deployment is very fast. It is a bit harder to recover the pole from under the boat. Not terrible but not as easy as deploying.

Andinista

This video you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm5FIkmx8Ao
He forgot to uncleat the main, that's why he's way out and jumping....
The frame is a bit too much in my opinion. A simpler A frame would probably work, but again, I'm pretty sure these tubes below the tramp are a pain in the a$$. I store mine along the tramp but just a few inches away from one hull.

Wow, I hadn't seen that rig before, seems a little much.

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MN3

I just watched this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PredhB7nDI
i would NOT (edit) want to do that to my board/trunk area on my current boat, and can't really recall how hardy my h18 was enough to say - but it's hard to believe that doesn't risk crushing boat or board well

In that video the guy had the "Gary's Solo Right" system, Gary Friesen of the On The Wire Catalina Island trips fame actually sold those as a complete system for a while.

He built them from a wooden oar that was sealed and even had grippy tape to walk on. There were different designs for different boats. The one for the Hobie 18 had kind of an L shaped plastic piece on the end, the only pressure on the hull was pressing on the bottom, the system wasn't levering the boat up by the daggerboard trunk like it might appear.

Hard to describe I'll try to find a picture.

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what he has on the ends of the pole look different, and what does he do with the board while he gets this system set up?

fxloop

This guy solo rights his Hobie 18 pretty easily. Unrolling and attaching righting pole in rough choppy windy conditions looks like it would take quite some time to deploy tho.
http://youtu.be/NwZZX2ka820

That's a guy that made his own version of the Solo Right, the angles and results are the same but it takes him longer to rig because it wasn't as carefully setup as the original Gary's model. That's why Gary stopped making them, everyone thought they could make one themselves cheaper. Beachcat sailors can really be cheap bastards sometimes.

The daggerboard stays in place, the righting system doesn't insert deeply into the daggerboard trunk.

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This video you mean?

That's the one. Look how far out he is. He's at least 180lbs if not 200lbs. Nice system. I think there would be some problems at 200lbs and a water bag. Better go with crew for testing. I'll be sailing the Chesapeake with not too many around, especially this spring. Wet suit weather etc.

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From another thread on here:

ramstadt
BTW, despite my being new to cats, I have had a situation where the paddle got me out of the harbor and into the open water. The winds were light and coming from directly ahead of me. The paddle was more than enough in that instance. Actually, I was amazed at how well the paddle does work with a cat.

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You shouldn't need a righting pole and a water bag (or crew), just make a long enough pole. The gary style can be shorter, because it starts further out an because you have all your weight out o the water. But if you don't uncleat the sheets you'll be righting a tank.. About a paddle, yes it's good to have one, i have a telescopic one inside my tramp bag. Using the righting pole doesnt seem practical.

Not suggesting rowing with just a pole?

Objectives:
1. Propel boat to wind area from ramp
a. Don't use a motor
b. Use oar, a sculling oar probably 9'-10' long oar.

2. Right boat with righting pole
a. Use the sculling oar as righting pole

Conclusion: One stick of wood might be used to propel the boat, and as a righting pole.
A short collapsible oar will not work for sculling or righting pole.
A long sculling oar could also be used for poling, in skinny water, or to push off, or prevent crashing into dirt or even used to guide boat between two piers getting away from the ramp. It could be use to tie two cats together for party boat etc.

We know a pole works for righting, if it is even needed for 200lb person. We don't know if sculling oar would work effectively enough on cat to get you where you wanted to go. I'm thinking rope as oar lock at stern dead eye location.


Here's an example of sculling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHNnA--Mmk

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I see.. I thought you just wanted to put a paddle in one end of the pole.
It doesn't look very effective, except for the real gondolieri... I guess it might deserve a trial if you think its worth it.
In my experience when you need to paddle it is normally for short time, either to reach a buoy or to move forward without wind, in which case it is usually intermittently, as wind picks up and disappears again. So in such situations you want a handy paddle, not something complicated to setup and store. You might face the need to paddle for hours but then you're screwed anyway.. no matter what you use.. But it shouldn't happen often.. if at all...

Quote

the photo is trapped off the wing, in only 7mph, & I can just barely hold it down. I realize I'm not piked out efficiently, but my feet are nearly 7' from the centre. I think the 8' beam will require even more finesse.

Not sure why your so overpowered in 7 mph. was it a beam reach?

I had my 6.0 out the past few weekends. I can handle it (solo) without problem (sans harness) under 15 knots
Sat it was gusting 20 - 25 and i was very overpowered and without the jib out was getting my ass kicked with tacking. i went back to the beach.

Reefed the main, and sailed without the jib. sailed like a dream. but no one else was sailing anymore so i went in.

MN3

+1

Quote

did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat.

i personally wrap my righting line knot around the mast base.. i would rather replace that 1 part (if it ever failed from righting) than all the parts in my DS system

I agree, I ended up pulling the DS post off centre when the line slipped to the bottom of the post. It looks like the mast step now needs replacing. I still tie it onto the DS post for storage but loop it around the mast before I take it over the hull so the stress on the DS post is reduced. Waiting to see what breaks as a result.