Have any of you bought new sails for your sailing machines? MY boat is like 30 years old, the sails are ok but i think they are stretched out! If you have bought sails what are some things you wished you did or asked about first?

What are some things you had done?

i am thinking to get a Square Top and since my Main sail is boom-less and the foot of the sail isn't straight i was going to have it cut Straight like a boom would make it. I have a quote for 1250 for Jib and Main from http://www.ullmansails.com/


Thanks for your thoughts!
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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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My '87 NACRA5.7 sails were getting the telltale signs of old age and sun exposure....bolt rope frayed.....pinholes in the batten stitching....rivets in the headplates loose and so on. I thought it would be cool to go the square top route and update the whole system. But the more I thought about it I realized that the new modern sails left me kind of cold. I called Elliott Pattison sails to see if I could get a reproduction of the originals. Imagine my surprise and pleasure in speaking with "Skip" Elliot himself....the designer/builder of many of the old time NACRA, Prindle and Hobie sails from the catamaran heyday. He visited with me at length like an old friend reminiscing about the "good old days". Skip said he would check the old loft to see if they had any bolts of dacron left from the period and I shot him a pic of the sail/color pattern (check my avatar). $1450 and three weeks later I had a brand new mainsail and jib and I couldn't be more satisfied. The match was perfect and the jib was cut on the new radial design with "slanted" battens that allow you to use a roller furler. Nothing beats hoisting a new set of sails and feeling the new stiffness and "crackle" as they are raised. Give 'em a call.

New sails will be a substantial upgrade for your 21. A square top adds quite a bit of light air power, but also puts greater loads on the mast. I used a mylar/kevlar main on my 21 for 3 or 4 seasons, sold the boat, and the mast failed the next owner after a couple more years. The original equipment mast was always a bit soft, and it's now over 30 years old. So consider retaining a pinhead design, but explore other sailcloths(I like pentex) and cuts. A furling jib with vertical battens as suggested by nacraman, would also serve you well. Skip built a great set of sails for a SC20 I had a few years back, I was very pleased. There are several respected lofts that have been building cat sails for many years(Calvert, Glaser, Elliot/Pattison, Smyth, Arends/RacerX, Ullman), any of them will produce a quality product and back it up if you have problems. Be a bit careful asking for cat sails from a local loft that primarily builds for monos.

My recommendation would be a mainsail out of a meduim tech mylar sailcloth, and a jib out of dacron. Dacron will stand up to the furling better, and is a little easier to read the luff breaking when pointing. I used a hobie 16 boom for the main, and it worked well, a big improvement over the original boomless design. Also, spring for high quality foam sandwich battens for the mainsail, they're a critical element in developing and maintaining proper shape over a broad wind range. Resist the temptation to go cheap on this improvement, quality will not only impress you initially, but will also translate into much appreciated longevity.

Dave

is there a problem with the sail maker i am thinking about going with? This guy says no Colors in sail would last longer here is what he is going to do?

The main will include; square top the head 18”-24”, a straighter foot, battens, Velcro end pockets for easy removal and inserting, logo, white Dacron, luff slugs and 1 reef, bag, leech and foot cords, telltales. I will have to charge you extra $98 for a second reef. You probably don’t even need a 2nd reef.

Jib will be white Dacron, foot and leech cords, telltales, bag and everything else your jib has

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Whie dacron does have greater life than colored. Mylar laminate sails hold their shape better than dacron, but the mylar will break down after 5 to 8 years. Laminate sails really want careful handling, rolling up, never folding. Dacron handles abuse better, and stays intact for decades, although it stretches after 3 to 5 seasons, and the original sail shape is gone forever. If you're gonna ignore my advice on the squaretop, make it smaller rather than larger. I prefer lace up batten ends for more control of batten tension, and velcro will die after a few seasons. I never remove the battens, so velcro isn't of great value to me. I reef is probably sufficient.

Dave

I really like dealing with Skip and Ian Elliot and would recommend that you call Elliot Pattison Sails. Their sails are very well made and will last a long time - you get what you pay for. Also, Skip will be glad to talk with you about your expectations and needs before recommending any particular sailplan or material. Skip will give you old school service.

Like Dave said, monohull sail designs don't necessarily convert well to multihulls.

Regarding the square head, I think that a square is easier to control on the wind and faster off the wind. Again, give Skip a call and have him fill you in. I suggest that you speak with the sailmaker about reefing on a square head - square head sails require a lot of leach tension which might be difficult with a reef tied on.

So, this may be a stupid question but how do you reef a boomless sail? What do you do with the unused portion of the sail and what do you do for downhaul?

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1983 Nacra 5.0 Sail #10
Dallas, Texas area
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I have Hanks on my Jib so i will just keep that, rolling furling is nice but i dont have the money for that! I would have to change my forestay and stuff, My main sail has 2 reef points i have to take the Battens out then i roll it up and Tie it up the down hull goes into eye holes

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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My understanding of fat head sails is that they need alot of downhaul to be able to allow the top of the sail to twist allowing gusts to bleed off at the top of the sail. Does your Reynolds have a significant downhaul system?
Also, for my H16, I had a sail set made by FX Sails and found out that the colored Dacron sail cloth is substantially thinner than the white Dacron cloth. 5 oz versus 3-4 oz for the colored cloth. I don't know about the material that the other sail lofts use, but that may be why the loft you are considering told you that white sails last longer.
Regards.

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My understanding of fat head sails is that they need alot of downhaul to be able to allow the top of the sail to twist allowing gusts to bleed off at the top of the sail.

Many, if not all, of the square-heads also use a modern type of sail cloth, such as Pentex. These are much stiffer than Dacron and require much more downhaul force to induce the same deformation.

BTW, if you decide to go with Dacron, for a big boat such as Reynolds 21, I would insist on 6 oz. Most of the heavy weight Dacrons are white.

I've got a Pentex square-head for my Hobie 17 and couldn't be more happy with the upgrade. You only need very firm downhaul in heavy air.

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Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
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I am going with all white sails . Yes I have a down hual cleat I'm just not sure how good it would do the boat perfomance with new sails. I'm still not convinced yet its worth the money.

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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By all means, buy sails that match your sailing interests and expectations. Be honest with the sailmaker - if you are not racing and just want nice sails for casual sailing, he/she should make recommendations based on that. If they don't/won't move on to another sailmaker.

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I really like dealing with Skip and Ian Elliot and would recommend that you call Elliot Pattison Sails. Their sails are very well made and will last a long time - you get what you pay for. Also, Skip will be glad to talk with you about your expectations and needs before recommending any particular sailplan or material. Skip will give you old school service.

I bought sails from Skip this year as well and am very happy. I have a Nacra Inter-18. It's pointless to invest in racing sails for the boat so I went with a crosscut dacron main. The jib is mylar and is just a stock F18 jib.





Edited by nhanson on Dec 09, 2012 - 09:29 PM.

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nacra inter-18
CNBP
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nhanson is that a boomles mainsail? it looks like it from the picture!

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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soulofasailor

nhanson is that a boomles mainsail? it looks like it from the picture!

you can see the (disconnected) boom attached to the mast and leaning on the back beam.

Oh yea ok so it was boomless! hahaha, we need a Chat window on this Forum so we can talk to each other in real time! Who is in-charge of this website?

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Who is in-charge of this website?

I am (please dont tell Damon)

But you could be the cool guy that creates the coolest forum with Live chatting to whoever is ONLINE at that time!

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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soulofasailor

But you could be the cool guy that creates the coolest forum with Live chatting to whoever is ONLINE at that time!

then it wouldn't be a forum.
imho - no need to change what is working

No i dont mean its broken just a little added feature! Ok Shhh no more on this.. :)lol

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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soulofasailor

No i dont mean its broken just a little added feature! Ok Shhh no more on this.. :)lol

It wouldn't be a bad feature, just hard to implement due to security problems and the chat clients require either constantly reloading the page or loading a third-party app from a chat server.

Also, pretty much the only revenue this site has is based on page views, in a chat window you don't get any.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
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Damon! is that your boat? If so it looks mean , FAST looks cool with those sails!

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Damon! is that your boat? If so it looks mean , FAST looks cool with those sails!

It has Chip Buck written all over...


I love this Pentex fiber shine

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Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
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Now with new sails this summer, im not sure what to expect! I saw the sailmaker over the weekend we went over both of these sails, the first thing he said was they are stretched out. He said these new ones will give me a chance to Flip her! I said No Way i cant flip her i do not want to...



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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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new sails may have better shape, speed and MAYBE more power than old and blown out ones but they will also flatten out much better in a heavy air, and should give you more control, and faster reaction to corrections if you feel overpowered. Also faster over-corrections too...

soulofasailor

nhanson is that a boomles mainsail? it looks like it from the picture!

No, the I-18 is (the grand-daddy of all) an F-18, full boom. I always unhook my boom from the clew when the boat is beached. This prevents broken battens and random boat flips from wind shifts on the beach.

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nacra inter-18
CNBP
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WInd shifts on a beach is something to be aware of I would take my sails down, until i go back out!

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Are the modern day sail materials as durable as the old ones? My sails are beat and certainly due for an upgrade however they haven't failed me yet.

Also, maybe someone can point me to a manufacturer who could fill this wishlist:


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Nacra 6.0 NA
Ogden Dunes, IN
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Here is a good review of modern sailcloth

http://www.doylesails.com/design/fiber.html

There are 2 popular fabrics used for cat sails, Pentex and Dacron. Dacron is more resistant to abuse, but Pentex tends to keep its shape longer. There are also different fabric weights, typically 4 to 6 oz. With thicker fabric, you get better durability, stiffness, and strength.

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Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
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I have gone with http://www.ullmansails.com/onedesign.aspxhttp://www.ullmansails.com/onedesign.aspx

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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what material ?

what material ?

Dacron what hw uaes for beach kats

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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You can order any material you want.
each has pro's and cons

It was a winter special I'm getting both sails @1200 $ so I figured it is gotta be better then the old ones plus they are all white..

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Congrats on new sails..
are they in stock or being cut for you?

No they are being Cut, i dropped off my originals they are copying them! Plus adding a Square TOP! :) I have no idea how good that is or the benefit of a square top.. But maybe i will fly a hull with ease in lighter winds maybe, then waiting for 25 mph winds.

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Soul:
How are the new sails working out? What has been the most impressive improvement? What was the best decision in the process? How is the reef point working?
Any regrets?

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Mooched Beachcats in the past
Time to try ownership with Nacra 5.7
Port Clinton, Lake Erie Islands, Ohio
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scotts1w

Soul:
How are the new sails working out? What has been the most impressive improvement? What was the best decision in the process? How is the reef point working?
Any regrets?

The Reynolds is now powered UP! It is a differen boat now very fast and so different I have to learn to sail the boat al I over again!
I havent really matched up with any hobie guys yet but next weekend could be the true test. Last year I use to wait for 15mph winds. This year I truly only need 8mph. I will post a video..

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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This is a dumb lake very shifty winds puffs of wind are very noticable now and the feeling of the hull coming out of the water will take some time in getting use to.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZnsSeb0bOE&feature=youtube_gdata_player[url]

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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New boat feel with new sails? That is enticing. Sounds like you are happy. Good to hear.

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Mooched Beachcats in the past
Time to try ownership with Nacra 5.7
Port Clinton, Lake Erie Islands, Ohio
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scotts1w

New boat feel with new sails? That is enticing. Sounds like you are happy. Good to hear.

so where do you sail at in OH?

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Well, I have not sailed her yet. The Erie Islands are an hour west of Cleveland. Hopefully I learn that she floats in the next two weeks.



Edited by scotts1w on May 28, 2013 - 12:20 PM.

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Mooched Beachcats in the past
Time to try ownership with Nacra 5.7
Port Clinton, Lake Erie Islands, Ohio
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Erie is in my area.

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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I still have Lee helm i raked my mast back to stern used all holes that i had in rigging i think i am going to put it back like it was. I thought the new sails would fix it , NOW i am thinking maybe the JIB is to big i am gonna sail with just the main sail the next time i go out! i want to see if there is a difference. i wish now i have a roller furling for jib! i will have to change it one day!

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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removing the jib should produce a lot more weather helm as the sail plan centre of pressure moves aft

some boats don't handle very well with the jib off

have you tried sailing in light air with the jib sheet fully loose, so the jib is spilling all it's air?

No i havent! I am just sad to think of this boat being the design of the boat being the problem! I just dont know what else to do. I wish i could try different rudders to test so i knew before spending more money on this boat, i mean it is ok to sail in 5 to 8 winds but as they increase it is a little tricky at times to not jerk the boat with the steering!

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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are there any other cat sailors locally who could lend you a smaller beachcat jibs that would fit for a test sail?

oh yes i am sure they could hmmm i didnt think of asking to do that. that might be a good idea

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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soulofasailor

Erie is in my area.

Let me know if you are near Port Clinton, Ohio splashing around.

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Mooched Beachcats in the past
Time to try ownership with Nacra 5.7
Port Clinton, Lake Erie Islands, Ohio
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i am always looking for a place to camp or stay and have a beach to beach at! What type of setup do you sail out of? I need a ramp to launch my boat from, i cant go off of a beach but i like to pull boat of trailer and put boat on beach! I would like to find a place on ERIE to keep my boat for cheap but i don't know of such a place?

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Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
Pennsylvania, PA.
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soulofasailor

i am always looking for a place to camp or stay and have a beach to beach at! What type of setup do you sail out of? I need a ramp to launch my boat from, i cant go off of a beach but i like to pull boat of trailer and put boat on beach! I would like to find a place on ERIE to keep my boat for cheap but i don't know of such a place?

I am at a private marina. I have just assembled a used "Air-Dock" to get it off the water during the week. Working on a Cruise 'n Carry with a Cheata bracket to get out of the marina. We have a small beach but no where to keep a cat over night.
I don't know of a place to keep a beach cat for the summer. I'll keep looking around though.
There is a small private camp ground next door with a beach. A week/weekend kind of place....Sunset Shore Camp Ground 1745 W. Lakeshore, Port Clinton, OH 41nine-7three4-5one86. They don't have a launch but there is a large marina the next door west with one. It would be a bit of a paddle to get out of the marina, I guess 600 yards to get around to the camp ground. It would have to be done under light winds. If you paid the marina to launch you, maybe they would tow you around to the beach. Do you have beach wheels? You would probably need them at Sunset Shore beach as it is pretty shallow well out. I see tents set up on the beach there regularly.

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Mooched Beachcats in the past
Time to try ownership with Nacra 5.7
Port Clinton, Lake Erie Islands, Ohio
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