http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_v7CJtcSj0

Holy crap that was crazy. When you first dumped and your crew was caught up in the ropes and the boat was slowly going over, I was biting my nails. Then he got separated and the tension went up. Nice soundtrack.

Good lesson on why you should always stay with the boat.

--
ALLEY CAT 1984 RED LINE HOBIE 18 MAGNUM
Sail # 10505 or 277
San Diego, Ca
--

wasn't my boat... It was durring the miami-key largo race and was posted on the other cat site.

That video is full of lessons.

I would put "Get the crew untangled from the lines before everything else" as #1.

No Radio. No whistle. Doing a distance race barefooted. Darwin award.



Edited by mummp on May 08, 2012 - 10:05 AM.

--
Philip
--

I'm just an inland wuss, but that looks remarkably dangerous. Ditto on what Philip said, and also no chicken line? And why isn't the crew holding on to the sheets he's tangled in.

I'd sure be pissed at that rudder system... hobies. sheesh

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Quote

and also no chicken line? And why isn't the crew holding on to the sheets he's tangled in.

i have not seem many cats with chicken lines.

I would have to guess the skipper and crew are not extremely experienced.

They failed to get (or attempt) the bows into the wind which exacerbated:
the separation of crew (she was rescued by sea-tow), increased wave troubles, additional capsizes, and inability to control the vessel both in the water and after righting.



Edited by MN3 on May 08, 2012 - 02:20 PM.

double post



Edited by MN3 on May 08, 2012 - 02:20 PM.

Quote

I would have to guess the skipper and crew are not extremely experienced.

They failed to get (or attempt) the bows into the wind which exacerbated:
the separation of crew (she was rescued by sea-tow), increased wave troubles, additional capsizes, and inability to control the vessel both in the water and after righting.

OMGosh, this is the most sobering beachcat video I have ever seen.

Rick White's Sailing Drills Book Needed Here
Pages 14 and 15 - How to:
Stop Fast
Park
Backup

All of which would have allowed his crew to catch up, or given him time to locate her and sail toward her.
She was in the water alone for an hour before she was rescued by someone else.
The line between this outcome and tragedy is very thin.
Thank goodness that he had the stamina to right his 16 single-handed multiple times.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Bob,
No disrespect here but I've been in those conditions more than I care to. Your not going to stop, park or backup in any controlled fashion. You are in survival mode. Highly unlikely he could turn the boat through a reach to retrieve her, gibes were instant pitch poles, and the speed of separation is incomprehensible. He couldn't even see her. His biggest mistake was leaving the beach. Some of the most experienced top notch sailors that day stayed in. They knew their limits.

I do agree that everyone should learn the skills mentioned, especially at the start sequence when racing.

--
Philip
--

It's days like that that make us better sailors.



Edited by flaco on May 08, 2012 - 07:06 PM.

Quote

I'd sure be pissed at that rudder system... hobies. sheesh

I agree makes me glad for my prindle rudders. Don't think I would have been able to even recover that tiller by myself in those conditions.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

Quote

the speed of separation is incomprehensible

I don't know what it was blowing that day, but even in what I'd call medium winds this is extremely true.

I had a boat pull up to me to help one day and an older gent, maybe 55-60, offered to help. I said sure; I was exhausted and needed to get in.

He started to jump in next to the boat (instead of in my path). I said stop. He jumped and started swimming. I said stop swimming, you're going to exhaust yourself and there is no way you'll ever catch me.

He had to be rescued. And he was amazed afterwards as he thought he was a good swimmer. I told him it had nothing to do with it.

You won't catch a capsized cat with the wind blowing on the tramp once it gets away from you.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

That was sobering. The crew was having constant trouble unhooking, and it looked like the boat was going to turtle on top of her while she dangled from the hook. I need to think about the righting line on my Prindle, which is stuffed in the tramp pocket and not easy or fast to get to. It sure would be nice if the Prindle had a way to rig a righting line along the hull that you could easily reach, or maybe I need to think about a righting pole.

Also thinking about an externally strapped knife for quick access, a SCUBA inflatable tube for visability in high seas, bright colored hat (instead of camo!)....

--
John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
--

video blocked in my country

due to music violation

youtube sucks

just screen it without audio!

crazy kids!...let's hope they learned something.

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

mummp

His biggest mistake was leaving the beach.

Agreed.

And Phillip, I have never though of you as disrespectful.
From our armchair view of videos and second-hand events here, it's easy to miss the big picture sometimes.
Thanks for pointing that out for me.
Bob

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

I think I woul have tried to turtle that boat as soon as the crew was free. I don't have as much experience as others but I knew trying to sail solo back to the crew was gonna be easy.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

That whole thing scared the pants off me. But kudos to the guy for posting it as a warning to others. I could have done without the music, though.

I wonder how many of the more experienced sailors told them to stay out of the water that day. Judging by the overwhelming gusto, I can't tell if they would've noticed wiser heads sitting out the race. A couple of races I went to years ago, the experts were ready to tell people they did something wrong, but were pretty close-lipped when it came to telling people how to do it right (like knowing when it's more prudent not to put your boat in the water!) There's a world of difference.

Lots of food for thought on that video. I like my rudder system more now. I'm getting more whistles, which I'm attaching to our PFDs with lanyards. I want to change my righting line setup. And a new word of warning for anyone who gets on the boat: Don't get your leg wrapped by a sheet! CRAP I thought she was gonna drown.

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

Here's a link to the results, not many cats finished.

http://miamiyachtclub.com…MKL%20RESULTS%202012.pdf

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

Granted Doug seems to have a lot to learn about sailing in those conditions and he would have been far better off learning them with help closer by, but he *did* finish the race and I'm sure he did learn quite a bit.

While we are criticizing him for what he did wrong, let's give him some credit for what he did right. I think Doug did the right thing when his crew was tangled, he made sure the boat didn't turtle on top of her while she figured out how to get free, for example.

--
Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
--

If you are the last one on the boat and its blowing away from the other crew faster than they can swim turtle the boat. Let the crew recover then fix the inverted capsize together.

He was very lucky the girl didn't come home in a body bag if it hadn't been for Seatow.

Quote

I think Doug did the right thing when his crew was tangled, he made sure the boat didn't turtle on top of her while she figured out how to get free, for example.

Daniel, thanks for pointing that out. When I was watching the video I thought, "Why's he getting in position to right the boat when his crew is tied up by one leg, head under water?!" Duh. He was buying her time.

So here's a question for everyone: Specifically, what would you do differently? (Aside from staying on the beach, that is.) In terms of gear on the boat, sailing techniques on the water, MOB techniques, etc., what would you do?

I'm not trying to belabor a point. I really do want to know. Here's why: The Alenuihaha Channel is about fifteen miles north of where I'll be putting in. Winds in the channel regularly get above 35 knots. No, I have absolutely no desire to sail there. But I've been kiting all over this island for years. Some days the wind behaves itself. Other days the wind shifts, and the channel winds can take as much as a 45 degree dip southward. It's entirely possible to go from gentle 5kt onshores to screaming 35kt offshores. I hate facing a known risk without a plan. As several people have pointed out, had the crew not been rescued, that could've turned out much much worse. Rescues here are no more of a guarantee than they are in Florida. If I can do a little planning now (whistles for all, brightly colored caps, inflatable tubes, knife belt, regular MOB drills, etc.) I'm all for it.

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

Bethwaite trapeze hooks (ball & socket) Pete

Quote

Specifically, what would you do differently?

I'll bite...

What would I do differently?
1) I would make sure I had a chance to practice in that sort of breeze with a "safety net" at hand. Benedict, I suggest you find somebody who has a motor boat to go out with you in some of those screaming winds so you can learn the particulars of your boat with help close by just in case. That way when you do get caught in it, you won't be surprised by how different sailing is in a blow. And don't let your motor boat friend help you when you have the slightest problem, he's there in case of a genuine emergency, not just to help you right the boat because you're rather tired. One of the things you have to learn to do is rest.

2) MOB techniques: Again, practice is the key. Every time I go out, I find some flotsam in the water to pick up. Rescuing an inanimate object is harder than rescuing a person who can swim toward the boat, and as a bonus I now have several hats. Can't find any flotsam? Lucky you! Try using some of your own jetsam instead. I used to take my daughter out when she was 5. We had an orange foam ball. She would throw the ball in the water, and it was her job to keep an eye on it while I sailed away, then came back to pick it up.

3) I noticed in the video when the crew was in the water, her life vest was riding up, practically covering her face. I see this kind of problem a lot. The vest isn't comfortable so people will loosen up the straps, then when they hit the water, the vest causes more problems than it cures. Tighten up that vest! Make sure it won't ride up on you.

4) Equipment failures are serious. While watching the video, long before the first capsize, I saw that the crew was having trouble with her trap line (1:35 or so,) and the leeward rudder was kicking up (3:30.) These problems came to haunt the boat later. If I notice something isn't right about the boat or my crew, even if I'm in a race, I will heave to or go to shore right away and fix it. This isn't always an easy thing to do, there is a powerful urge to just muddle on. Just don't.

--
Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
--

Quote

Specifically, what would you do differently?

Some feel that a part of racing is pushing yourself into sailing in conditions you normally wouldn't... and that is a small part of why i don't race very often. When i used to snow ski... rule #1 was never ski out of control or in conditions you can't handle.... i feel the same rules apply here.

I would have made sure my crew was free the second i saw they needed assistance. I would have been yelling at my crew too... (DONT LET GO OF THE LINES once you are free)

after the crew was free.. i would have made sure the sheets were uncleated, and the tiller cross bar was in the correct place

I would have faced my cat into the wind... that would have made the situation so much more manageable and prevented the boat from taking off like a rocket once righted

after the 2nd or 4th capsize, i would have fixed my jib so i could sail to weather (it was wrapped up)


i can't really tell, but it doesn't look all that downhauled either.. i would have surely down and outhauled the snot out of that sail

not 100% sure about how H16's should be sailed in these conditions, but i would probably not double trap and let the crew sit behind me (they were both getting T-bagged a few times). the skipper was so far back, that he was holding the tiller above the rudders and I could easily believe he actually unlocked his rudders from that angle.





Edited by MN3 on May 09, 2012 - 08:26 AM.

Don't most 16s have reef points as well?

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Quote

Don't most 16s have reef points as well?

no, those were ended with the comp tip

i know they were moving very fast, but those conditions didn't look like they warrented double trapping and reefing.. but hard to really tell from my desk

Anyone else notice the number of the sail? 5105:
CA Police code for crazy one on the loose. Danger to property, danger to others, and danger to themselves...

yurdle

Don't most 16s have reef points as well?

His sail doesn't have reef points, and his jib is fully battened. Once the jib got wrapped around the forestay, the only way to unwrap it would have been to go downwind, and jibe around. However, that would have put him even further from his sister (who was still within sight at the time,) and every time he tried to turn down wind, he pitch polled.

After righting the first time, when his crew was in the water, heaving to might have helped depending on how much leeway he would have made, maybe his sister could have caught up to the boat, or maybe getting back in the water and holding the bow into the wind while using himself as a sea anchor. I'm not so sure about these ideas though.

--
Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
--

a hobie 16 is a wild ride on days like that, you have to know your stuff to stay upright. now a p-16 is way better suited for that kind of blow, especialy if your fat!

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

Daniel, thanks for the idea about the motorboat. I do have some friends with putt-putts on their rides, and one at least may be interested in giving this a try.

As for MOB drills, when I had my P-16, we used to do something similar with our throwable flotation. If the weather was good (meaning not too challenging sailing) and the sun was hot, we'd do it with live flotation, too. We got to where everyone who skippered the boat could spot a person in the water, sail to them, and spin the boat around them while the crew hauled them aboard. I'm not planning to try this on the open ocean until I can get some tiller time picking up a throwable float or a foam ball, like you and your daughter did.

As far as pushing yourself as a sailor, I'd far rather do that NOT as part of a race. But I know the temptation to just go for it is there under pressure, especially when racing. Still, that's not my cup of tea. I'm in it to have fun. Part of having fun means getting to go home at the end of the day and get back out on the water the next morning. (But I'll make sure to pass the message along to my kids in case they decide they do want to get into racing!)

Ok, MN3, the other thing you mentioned is how you would've handled seeing your crew upside down, head in the water, and tangled in the sheets. Daniel pointed out that the skipper kept the boat from turtling, which would've made the situation worse. But my gut instinct would've been to help free them, or get their head above water to buy them more time to get loose. Which one is the more prudent course of action?

I'm also glad you mentioned not uncleating the sheets before righting the boat. I thought that's what I saw, that there was tons of mainsheet that could've been let out prior to righting. But I don't know the Hobie so I wasn't sure I read it right. When I had my P-16, we capsized at least once every time we went out. At first it was because we were dumb, inexperienced and didn't know any better. Toward the end it was to give the sails a good rinse at the end of the day. But I'd say we righted that boat over a hundred times. It only took two times leaving the sheets cleated before we learned that lesson. (Why two times? Told you we were dumb!)

The P-Cat main has reef points. Reefing and furling the jib is a good one to add to the regular practice routine, along with MOB drills. Noted.

Daniel, one other thing you mentioned: having the skipper jump back in the water to use himself as a storm anchor to keep the boat in irons. Not sure I'd want to do that, especially in cold water, but do you think there would be any benefit to packing a storm anchor on a boat, tied to the bows via a bridle? Again, this wouldn't be for racing. And I'd want to make quite sure it wouldn't slip overboard accidentally. But in a situation like that it's something that could be tossed in the water to keep the boat in irons. (I'm on the fence on this one... I'd rather sail around and pick up my crew, if possible. Better still, I'd rather convince my crew not to let go of the boat!)

Thanks for the ideas, guys. I really really appreciate this.

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

~~ I lost my best friend in rough weather...... I've learned to RESPECT it and won't go out in a BLOW or "high gusts"

--
~ Vietnam Vet 69-71~ 17 Hobie w/big jib, ~18 Hobie mag,~DN Ice sailor,
and other toys.......
~~ I live in NY state on the north shore of Oneida lake in
Bernhards Bay. ~~~~~~
--

Tom,

I feel the need to point out that the reason the boat started sailing while on its side (did you notice how the main lifted out of the water?) was precisely because the skipper moved to the back of the boat to try to help his crew. If he had stayed at the bow, the boat wouldn't have gone flying off like it did. If the crew had a trapeze cutting knife (and she should have,) she would have been fine, the skipper should have stayed at the bow. None of this applies if the skipper has reason to believe that the crew is unconscious of course. (Yes, MN3 and I are giving conflicting advice on this point.)

People have a bad habit of grabbing a boat at the shrouds or stern (especially if it is starting to move away from them,) and they think they can just hold it that way. Well, depending on the wind and sail area, even when the mainsheet is running free the boat can exert considerable force. If you want to hold a boat, whether or not you can touch the bottom, you really need to be holding the bow.

As for the sea anchor... I need a righting bag for my boat anyway so I have one onboard.

--
Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
--

This is a scarey video. I have have lost a crew member once but was able to get back to him. It is very important to let anyone on the boat know that if you capsize you must immediately get to the boat and HOLD ON TIGHT. I feel the skipper was almost left without a boat a few times. Whenever I capsize I uncleat the main to lessen the chance of the boat capsizing again when righted and to try to prevent the boat from running away when upright. By standing on the bow or stern you can rotate the tramp out of the wind to slow the boat's speed but in these condtions I doubt that his sister would have been able to get back to the boat as it would have still probably drifted faster than she could have swam to it. Definitely makes me want to do more practice on my "man overboard drills". Agree that anyone on the boat should have a whistle and probably waterproof light or mirror in the lifejacket. I've complained about my Prindle rudders in the past but have found new respect for them after this.

--
Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
--

Quote

But my gut instinct would've been to help free them, or get their head above water to buy them more time to get loose. Which one is the more prudent course of action?

i am no expert (at all) but I am pretty sure i would instinctavly check on my crew.. (alive?, hurt?, tangled?).. and would probably get into that pile of spagetti and untangled her feet. This would not have helped the boat/wind angle, and added the turtle risk... but get your crew safe, then they can help you (is what i THINK i would do)

BUT it sure is easy to say that from my desk... It's otally a matter of crisis managment where every decision can be life or death, or gear, or the race on the water.

All in all, this turned out very well. They lived, boat didn't look damaged, the finished the race i think i saw. and i bet they learned a lot :)

I was sailing solo on my 16, on the wire when the boat pitchpoled. I was slung forward and around the mast, the main coming down directly overhead. I was underwater, under the main, still hooked to the trap, and tangled up. Another wire was caught on the hook, blocking the release of the trap wire. I literally had to stop, regroup, and slowly, methodically detangle myself so I would swim out from under the main to get air. It was a very scary moment, I think the outcome might have been different if I had panicked. These boats are dangerously fun which is why I love them. Anything in my life that is this enjoyable involves a certain amount of risk. The issue is to mitigate as much of that risk as possible before leaving the shore.

I don't blame these folks for sailing in these conditions, I've done the same in times past. My only caveat would be to make sure my crew was equally experienced and aware of the risks.

--
Karl, Captain of Stayin' Thirsty
2011 Hobie 16SE
Atlanta, GA
--

I get the feeling there's no one right answer for how to respond to a crewmate who's tangled and head-under. I'm going to run this video by one of the EMTs I know. Unfortunately I just renewed my certification for emergency medical responder, so I won't have the opportunity to ask my instructor until my renewal comes up again. But this is an interesting scenario! I'd like to know what the better approach is.

Lots and lots of food for thought. Thanks again for all the input.

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

a couple weeks ago we were launching from osyc on a nice and breezy day(20-25kts) and it was just a little chilly. so we wuz doin' a little(lot) of beer drinkin' and contemplating not sailing. there was a nice youngish gent with a totaly cute chick rigging a fancy newish f18...all the bells and whistles and with complete astronaught suits. we struck up chat and and the guy sounded so competent, confident, and mind you, looked all the part. i was going to watch and see how they did before i rigged my boat, but was mainly scoping the cutie. sure enough they launch, tack twice, and then she goes into the drink about 200yrds off of the beach.

the skipper could not get back to her, he barely could control the powerful boat by himself. after a few blown tacks and nearly flipping, he headed for shore and couldn't even sail the boat in. he ended up jumping in the shallow water and with all his might walked the boat in with some help. meanwhile, the hottie was being blown in by the stiff southeast wind. at this time some kids(12-14yrs) rigged up a wave and sailed out(effortlessly) to get her but she had already reached shallow enough water and walked in. no doubt this guy was an experienced sailor(lives in atlanta, so prolly lake sailing mostly), the crew was not(but she was hot, so i understand). i guess the moral of the story is that things can go wrong real fast, they were lucky it happened right in front of the club(except for the embarassing part of the kids coming to her rescue). he lowered the sails on his boat and later took her out on a wave.

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

I had quiet the same experience, but on a 15ft dinghy. Strong winds, moderate waves, and a beginner as crew member. Everything OK, until unsuspecting happen, both of us in the water. I always carry an handheld GPS and after checking my crew was OK, I release all the rigs, and I mark the point on the GPS, just in case.... I take time to explain to my crew how we will redress the boat and what he should take care of and do during the maneuver. Well, bad luck, when we redress the boat, the wind blow into the main sail, which rig get stuck (I had release it before) and the boat start almost flying. I manage to step in the boat, and when I was in I realize that my crew was not there, not even close. I saw him around 75 m from the boat. I tell him to stay there, I will go back for him as soon as possible (must say that the temperature of the water is not a problem, we are in the tropics). I arrange the boat for solo sailing, and program my GPS to point to the mark were we fall. At this moment, I couldn't see my crew in the water. I recover him easily, as I had practiced the maneuver a lot of times.
Having a waterproof GPS on hand, was a good idea, mark the point, an other one. Believe me; I don't know why I did it, but in this case I went directly where my crew was, and he was no far from that point and I could see him without a search pattern.

--
Patrick DW.
Ciudad del Carmen, Mexico.
--

Bill, I think the real moral of the story is if you're a 14 year old with a Wave, practice your MOB drills, learn how to rig fast, and learn how to sail back in as slow as you possibly can!

Patrick, that's a cool trick with the GPS. I can see how that should work every time. If you come back to the waypoint you set and your crew isn't there, sail directly downwind. I'm remembering that one.

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

jfricker

That was sobering. The crew was having constant trouble unhooking, and it looked like the boat was going to turtle on top of her while she dangled from the hook. I need to think about the righting line on my Prindle, which is stuffed in the tramp pocket and not easy or fast to get to. It sure would be nice if the Prindle had a way to rig a righting line along the hull that you could easily reach, or maybe I need to think about a righting pole.

Also thinking about an externally strapped knife for quick access, a SCUBA inflatable tube for visability in high seas, bright colored hat (instead of camo!)....

Here is what you do. you can buy one like this:


http://www.murrays.com/mm…_Code=C-RI&Store_Code=MS

Or you can make the same thing take a very small block similar to what you use for trap line return. use a short length of 1/8 in line and tie it to the pad eye you put your traveler knot through on the rear beam. You can add another tang if you want but you don't really need to.

Next you need a block big enough to handle the width of the line you choose to use for righting. If it is long enough you may be able to use the one you already have. tie or otherwise attach the block to the end of some shock cord. It should be long enough to reach from the from beam to the rear beam putting only a small amount of stretch in the line. Just enough to keep it taught. Run the other end of the shock cord through the small block you tied to the rear beam and back to your front beam. Tie it to your DS rod.

Now you have 2 choices. You can install a pad eye on each side of your front beam to tie the ends of your righting line 2 or do what I did and just tie the end of your righting line around the outside of your front beam. To do this with the tramp on push the line up through the front corner of one side of our tramp. Go around the front of your beam in a loop and reattach with a bowline knot. ( I actually went along the bottom of where the beam is attached to the hull and around the outside of the end cap keeping the line tucked under the lip and them back along the front.) Take the other end and run it through the block attached to the shockcord and back to the opposite front beam making a big V shape. Tie that end on the beam like the first one. Tie it so it is tight enough to be stretched tight while in the V shape.

Now from the bottom of the boat you can reach it and pull the shockcord will allow it to be pulled out to hang on to right the boat then when done the shock cord will automatically return it to its stored position. No need to get out and put away it's where you need it when you need it.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

daniel_t

Quote

Specifically, what would you do differently?

her life vest was riding up, practically covering her face. I see this kind of problem a lot. The vest isn't comfortable so people will loosen up the straps, then when they hit the water, the vest causes more problems than it cures. Tighten up that vest! Make sure it won't ride up on you.

finally got to watch the video after using

hidemyass.com

to get around youtube's regional block

you guys already said what needs to be said

but can't resist commenting on the quote above

when i started parachuting

having all the harness real tight never mattered

as adrenaline filled body never noticed

but after getting used to it

if we had any delays, would loosen the straps until just before the jump

until forgot

and came down with the chest strap across my nose

as they say, and like that cat experience

"that'll learn ya"

HAHAHAHA! I can second that, but from another direction. I did the first several jumps in the AFF course, but then I got back into sailing and could only afford one or the other. I picked sailing. But those jumps stuck with me. One of my mentors told me NEVER to jump with loose straps at the crotch. "Why?" I asked. "Because it feels like someone kicked you in the nads if you do."

My current job involves a lot of work in high places. Any time we go up, we wear fall protection. The harness I use, a DBI Sala Exofit, looks exactly like a parachute harness without the container and risers. I'm picky about my harness, and don't really appreciate it when someone grabs mine instead of theirs, and then proceeds to change all my strap settings. People laughed at how tight I keep the leg straps until I told them the skydiving story. A lot of harnesses got a lot tighter after that!

So far it's been academic, though. I don't think we've had a single fall since I started working here ten years ago. I'm happy to keep it that way!

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

Quote

Now from the bottom of the boat you can reach it and pull the shockcord will allow it to be pulled out to hang on to right the boat then when done the shock cord will automatically return it to its stored position. No need to get out and put away it's where you need it when you need it.

Dustin - I like that layout. One question, does pulling from the inside (or bottom) of the hull instead of from over the top of the hull reduce the righting moment and make it harder to right the boat? I need all the help I can righting it solo.

--
John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
--

Wow, losing sight of the crew, serious scary stuff, way more action then what you had hoped for I bet. I bet you were exhausted after the first capsize but I'm curious about the attempted jibe actions afterwards that appear to result in two more pitch poles. At the moment what was the thoughts behind these, trying to get closer to the crew or were you trying to fix the jib to prevent further flips? Great job and thank goodness everybody was safe at the end. I'm chalking down a personal note: "Whatever happens, never ever ever EVER let go of the boat...."

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc C.
Cleveland, Ohio.
Current love: Nacra 5.0
Old loves: Int Laser, Int Europe, Int 470, Int 420, Vaurien
------------------------------------------------------------------
--

jfricker: I have a Prindle 16 and I use the same righting line setup as quarath shows. I am UNABLE to right the boat by pulling the rope under the hull! I find that tossing it over the top of the hull provides a little extra angle. Anything helps! It's easy to rig underneath the trampoline and leave a knot in a circle that you can use around your wrist or just a better grip.

I have not used a righting back, basically I have not wanted to buy one. But I weigh 175 and I think that the added weight of a righting back over my shoulder combined with the rope over the top of the hull would pop the boat right up.

I keep a large "water tight" bag tucked into one of my tramp pockets, (it also works as a sail bag for my jib during storage) and I think I'll grab for that to use as a righting bag if my body weight isn't enough next time.

--
Redondo Beach, CA
'80 Prindle 16.
(Got it for free!)
--

I'll chime in w/ some additional info on Dustin's post.

I set up my own righting system similar to the above using extra parts. I have the top of the "V" shaped line secured to the front crossbar with a Bowline. In the future I may upgrade to adding a padeye to either side of the crossbar to make it look better. For now I want to test it out before I spend any money on it.

The line is a portion of my old main sheet. I cut the old forestay pigtail off and reused the stainless ring and ran my main through the ring and secured the shock cord to the ring.

I added an old trap block to the rear crossbar with a padeye and ran my shockcord from the ring through the block to the DS rod. I secured it with just enough tension so that I can pull the righting line nearly parallel with the front crossbar. I figure this will allow me to fully hike out when trying to right the cat. I read somewhere that a bowline will hold in shockcord but I need to verify that. I played with it on the lawn and the setup is very simple and it seems to work and return to center every time.

I tool the remaining length of mainsheet and set up a traditional recovery line but added in some barrel knots for hand grips and a bowline loop at the very end so that you can put you foot in it to get back on board if you aren't the most nimble of people.

My overall cost was $4 for 2 rivets and a padeye. Everything else came out of the parts bin, You could as Dustin mentioned run a line from the traveler padeye but I opted for adding in another padeye so that the force is pulling in the same direction as the rivets versus some angle greater than 90*. I'm sure its strong enough attached to the traveler; but I had the crossbars off and for $4 I wanted to keep it neat.

Let me know if you want Pics

--
Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
Beach Cat Lesson #1 - A free cat isn't
Find more Prindles on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/173120656090532/
--

jfricker

Dustin - I like that layout. One question, does pulling from the inside (or bottom) of the hull instead of from over the top of the hull reduce the righting moment and make it harder to right the boat? I need all the help I can righting it solo.

No, it doesn't matter, but it might be a little harder to hold on to the line since it will be more horizontal than otherwise. Also, and this is important I think, you will find it harder to stand at the bow and right the boat with that system so it will be harder to keep the boat facing into the wind.

--
Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
--

covered in great detail here - http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=239400&page=1

jfricker

Quote

Now from the bottom of the boat you can reach it and pull the shockcord will allow it to be pulled out to hang on to right the boat then when done the shock cord will automatically return it to its stored position. No need to get out and put away it's where you need it when you need it.

Dustin - I like that layout. One question, does pulling from the inside (or bottom) of the hull instead of from over the top of the hull reduce the righting moment and make it harder to right the boat? I need all the help I can righting it solo.

I had not problem but I have the weight to do it. I think that over the top could give you a little extra.

I have seen it done like this on a Prindle as well.



http://www.murrays.com/mm…_Code=C-RI&Store_Code=MS

In this case the line was not tied at the beam but passed trough a large pad eye riveted on the bottom of each beam then went over the top of the deck in front of the beam and trailed down the outside of the hull and attached somewhere at the back. I believe to a hole drilled through the deck lip. The one I saw had a series of knots tied along it. I though it would be to hard for me to get the line loose enough fall down from the hull in the air so opted for the other one.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

Quote

covered in great detail here - http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=239400&page=1

I'm not sure they ever agreed! It does not matter if the righting line is over or under the top hull, it's how far out you can get when leaning back, and how much weight you carry. If you laid out on a dagger board in the same position you could lean out with a righting line, you would have equal righting moments. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

--
John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
--

Quote

it's how far out you can get when leaning back, and how much weight you carry.

but you can lean out further with the line further away from the hull in the water... and that means... out and over the top hull (IMHO)

Quote

If you laid out on a dagger board in the same position you could lean out with a righting line, you would have equal righting moments.

yes but you would be under water faster and thus loose you righting momentum

I have spent the last week trying to get this video out of my head. No can do.

Today I picked up a set of personal locator flares and a new throwable PFD. We have knives and whistles already in PFD chest pockets, and borrowed VHF radios.

It strikes me that the best tool in this situation is man overboard expertise, and using my head while still on shore. I have stood in the sand and bailed on races in the past due to severe conditions. Right now I feel great about every one of those decisions.

Thanks, MN3, for posting this. It has had significant impact.



Edited by klozhald on May 15, 2012 - 01:09 PM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

I, too, have watched this video a number of times. I have never sailed in those conditions, but I've experienced each one of those problems over several years, just not on the same excursion. I bought new PFDs with pockets, and whistles, line cutter and sailing knives for the kids.



Edited by lesgawlik on May 15, 2012 - 07:31 PM.