I have been wondering this...If i was to capsize my F18 singlehanded and it went turtle, and i then swam down and attached a line to the top of the mast, do you think id then be able to pull the mast back up to horizontal and perform capsize recovery from there?
Im not sure if itd be too heavy or not...

hey John while you are down there why dont you just inflate your lifejacket and hold on guaranteed quick trip to the surface

just joking really for those who think it just might work consider the risk of entanglement and drowning as there are proven methods that do work with minimal risk factors

and wtf are you doing on a f18 solo anyways?

~~ eragons right.... its to risky. lines would be hanging down, good chance for entanglement and a F18 mast is how long??
Can ya hold yer breath that long & are ya a good swimmer?? When yer done doing all that you'll be tired....
Heres what I used to do. (and it worked for me) When I started sailin cats, I had a 14 Hobie (no jib) I used to go out in pretty strong winds.... I got smart after a few times of flippin it and had a piece of rope with me with a quick-snap on one end of it... I guess it was about 20' long or so.....(you'll want it longer) When I turtled I would put the "snap" on one of the bow tangs...and try to "kinda" stand on the "opposite" rear hull, also tried to help steady myself with the help of the tiller handle... pull up on the rope, and have yer weight push down on the opposite hull.... Got the idea??? I hope it works for ya, or anybody else,,, but who wants to flip their cat ?? Its alotta work !!!! SAIL-SAFE ~~

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~ Vietnam Vet 69-71~ 17 Hobie w/big jib, ~18 Hobie mag,~DN Ice sailor,
and other toys.......
~~ I live in NY state on the north shore of Oneida lake in
Bernhards Bay. ~~~~~~
--

Forget about safety, say you did attach a line to the top of your mast while 30 foot deep. Then you make it to the surface and start swimming? Call over 5-10 Michael Phelps. I'ts still not going to happen. Your not just moving the mast through the water your trying to lift a haul 8 feet out of the water.

--
Nacra 6.0 NA
Ogden Dunes, IN
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But then I got high, but then I got high, but then I got high.......

--
David
Memphis, TN
'84 Hobie 18
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Don't F18s have trap wires. I have seen people disconnect the bungee and hand the wire to someone on a safety boat and they pull on the trap wire to get the mast back up

Sailnagin, I find people like you who spend their spare time reading through forum posts just to reply with unhelpful a**hole coments very sad.

eragon, I sail and F18 solo because i can and i enjoy it. If i had the money id buy an F16 or an A-Class but until then im very happy with what i am sailing!


I can right the boat from a normal capsize fairly easily as long as there is a bit of wind, its all about the technique right! But as i sail solo in the sea the idea of the boat going turtle is something that concerns me as there is not always help around. This would be a problem in any size cat.

This is why i have been thinking about ways around the problem, is that really so stupid sailnagin?

As for the suggestion of using the trapeze wires instead i think thats a excellent idea, i dont know why i didnt think of that!!!
I think i am a good underwater swimmer and if i was turtled off the coast with no other choice then yes i would be able to swim down to the mast, but i agree actually all the lines floating around would be dangerous.

The idea was id haul the mast up from a floating position but im still not sure if i would be able to pull the weight of the mast and boat back out of the water though, which was the question a had.

Quote

eragon, I sail and F18 solo because i can and i enjoy it. If i had the money id buy an F16 or an A-Class but until then im very happy with what i am sailing!

I'm in your boat, I sail an N5.7 (19') solo quite a bit of the time. I'm looking at a Spark 15, because it might be more fun solo in big winds. I'd love to have one of the new Nacra 4.3s, but I would have to curtail some other hobbies to afford one. (Damn college kids are killing my budget )

Make sure your mast is sealed, top to bottom, with a small removable screw to drain any water that does get in. I went with a mast head float, as I too sail several miles from shore (not the ocean), & had a strong wind pushing on the tramp, drive the mast under in just a few seconds. I don't care to repeat the experience, as I was solo, & there were no other boats around.
You already have a line attached to the mast head, your halyard. If turtled, mine is accessible by reaching just under the forward beam, without having to go under the boat. I don't know how it would work, as I've never tried it for un-turtling, but it works well to tip the boat on dry land.
I think(hope) eragons comment was meant tongue firmly in cheek. You see very few flames on this forum, & most posters do not need their optic nerves severed from their anal o.rifice.



Edited by Edchris177 on Jul 25, 2011 - 07:11 AM.

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Hi edchriss, yeah i used to have a dart 16 that i could reef and take out in some great winds!! im more limited with what wind speed i can manage in the tiger, but i agree something smaller for those really windy days would be good! if only i had the money!!

anyway iv bunged up anywhere the mast looked like it could leak with silicone and it has never actually gone all the way round before. I always try and get off the boat as quick as possible to minimise the risk of turtle but i know its gonna happen one day.
So what did you do when it happened to you? Stand on top and flap your arms till someone came to help? or did you manage to get it back up?

john_nohj

I have been wondering this...If i was to capsize my F18 singlehanded and it went turtle, and i then swam down and attached a line to the top of the mast, do you think id then be able to pull the mast back up to horizontal and perform capsize recovery from there?
Im not sure if itd be too heavy or not...

After reading the rest of the thread I realize you were serious when you made this statement, when I first read it I thought you were making a joke. Maybe some of the others did as well.

One problem is you haven't given us enough information to help you. I keep repeating in various threads that giving basic information will get better answers. In this case you would get better advice if we knew your sailing area and conditions, your age, weight, and fitness. If you tell us you are a fifty year old accountant who weighs 250 pounds the advice is different than if you were a 23 year old Navy Seal.

http://www.thebeachcats.c…Forums/Forum-Signatures/

http://www.thebeachcats.c…install-your-own-avatar/

Since you were serious about un-turtling a Tiger by "diving to the masthead" I'll give you a serious answer. No, I don't think you (or anyone) could do it, and I hope you don't try. Dead members don't post much, so it reduces traffic to the site. (lame attempt at gallows humor)

First, to get to the mast head about 33 feet under water you would need to remove the PDF that I hope you are wearing while sailing solo. (bad idea)

Second, a 33 foot free dive is a very strong dive even using fins, I did a lot of snorkeling back in the day and was a strong college level swimmer and could have just about made it to that depth, but not stayed there long. Not many could get that deep even under great conditions, and this aint great conditions, you did remember to bring your swim fins? Getting that deep without them would be amazing.

Third, even if you dropped your PDF and could free-dive like a Japanese Pearl Diver, you won't be able to see a thing, except in the clearest water in the world, it's dark and murky at 33 feet, would you be wearing a dive mask?

Fourth, ok, you have made the dive and now have a rope attached to the top of the mast, what now? You are still alone with a 400 pound boat and square meters of sails and hundreds of feet of line in the water.

So real advice for solo sailing a big boat in risky (limited rescue) conditions?

Seal your mast and add a mast float to prevent turtle. Carry several kinds of communication gear as backup. At least two of VHF, Cell Phone, Spot Locator, and Epirb. Make sure others know you have gone on a solo sail and when you should be expected back and stick to the plan. If you are always late getting back, the time you are really in trouble the ones on beach will say, "he just decided to stay out longer" and delay your rescue.

Also a good idea to carry food and water any time there is a chance you could be stranded for extended periods.

Sailing big boats solo in "the sea" is a subject we need to discuss, hopefully this thread will remain constructive.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Here's a thought. If you can make a PFD that inflates automatically when the person goes in the water, why not make a masthead float that works the same way. It would be pricey, but it beats having the mast go under. I would think it would not be too bulky and cumbersome.

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Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
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makinmajik

Here's a thought. If you can make a PFD that inflates automatically when the person goes in the water, why not make a masthead float that works the same way. It would be pricey, but it beats having the mast go under. I would think it would not be too bulky and cumbersome.

Hard to come up with original ideas these days, every time I think I've invented something it turns out to be old news.

I remember a system like that being advertised in the old Hobie Hotline magazine, can't find that right now but here is a patent from 1993 with the same method.
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/5255624.html

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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That one sounds a bit more complex than what I was thinking of. There would still be patent issues, the auto-inflate mechanism is patented no doubt. Seems like a small, CO2 driven unit that could inflate when the mast started to go under would be really cool. You would think you could go to the folks that make the PFDs and get them to build it.

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Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
--

makinmajik

That one sounds a bit more complex than what I was thinking of. .

Yeah, the "inflation tube up the mast" method sounds like a lot of parts and problems.

Take the autoinflate mechaism from a pfd and package it in a tight hardshell package (maybe auto airbag material) shaped to match the contour of the front of a mast tip. Then just adjust the depth required to inflate to like 10 feet to avoid accidental deployment.

For square-top sails I always thought a float like this could be developed.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=12206


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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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I checked Mustang, they sell a PFD with auto inflation for $150 or so. You would think one for a mast would not be any more than that. Trick would be getting it to work, (attach), with different mast heads. When you look at $220 or so for a bob, seems like it would sell to me. I may drop Mustang a line. Tell them they could advertise it here!

--
Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
--

John.........Apology for the wtf of course you can sail your boat of choice as and where you like as i do with my fx 1 carrying 35m2 in 3 sails solo sometimes
you are wise to seek advise on possible righting techniques and i hope we can all learn something from the positive responses here
my approach to safe sailing in risky conditions is to know the capabilities of boat, skipper and crew practice a righting drill and avoid risky manoeuvres close to a lee shore
having other boats sail with you to help if needed would be nice but i know not always possible
i have often thought of using main halyard as righting line if turtled but have not yet tried it (that is on my list of things to do but have my doubts that the light line is strong enough)
in an emergency situation i would attract attention to get assistance or if time allows drop the rig by releasing either a shroud or forstay then right hulls first and try to re rig (assuming you have a method to raise that mast by yourself)
having said that i would not even attempt it (dropping rig)in rough open water conditions better to wait for help
happy hobie-ing



Edited by eragon on Jul 25, 2011 - 11:12 PM.

Quote

So what did you do when it happened to you?

I knew that the base of the mast, at the rotaotor bolt was NOT sealed, & would be underwater when turtled. Once even a gallon or so of water leaked in, & fell to the masthead, I was beat.
I had releseased the main as I went over, I didn't bother with the jib. I stood on the bow end of one hull, as I figured there was less bouyancy there, compared to the stern. This drove the bow mostly under, & somehwat lifted a corner of the tramp. The strong wind pivoted the boat, & it sort of rolled a bit. As soon as the boat started to drift downwind,& the mast was not totally vertical, it came up to where only a foot or so was under water. I then had to rig the bag for a little extra oomph to get it upright.
I don't know if my response was the best technique, or if I just got lucky in this case. That was the one & only time I've turtled it. I don't plan on having it happen again, so I built a ghetto float. Nacraman took some flak a year or two ago for his homemade float (5 gal water jug), but his is much better looking than mine!

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While I was looking for info on the Spark 15 from another thread I came across an excellent description of righting a turtled boat, should apply to most beachcats.

http://www.sprint15.com/faq/capsize.php
by Bob Carter

• If the boat is inverted spend a little time on the upside-down trampoline sorting things out.
  
• Uncleat the main sheet (and the jib sheets if a jib is being used).
  
• Take the main halyard out of the tramp pocket (underneath the tramp) and thread it round one hull (say the most windward hull e.g the port hull) under water and bring it up on the outside of the hull. DO NOT USE THE RIGHTING LINE IN THE FRONT BEAM - IT IS TOO SHORT.
  
• Take the halyard across to the opposite hull (e.g the starboard hull) and stand right at the back of the hull just in front of the rudder.
  
• Hold on to the halyard and use it for stability - lean back a little if you can, so that the halyard is pulling up the port hull while your body weight is sinking the rear of the starboard hull. Hold this position for some time. Nothing happens quickly as the sail needs to be pulled through the water.
  
• When the hull that you are standing on is pointing up at about 40 degrees work your way forwards (uphill) slowly using the halyard to pull on and you will find that the boat is now resting on its side.
  
• Lean back and pull the boat upright. If the wind is very strong and the mast is pointing into wind you can be in danger of capsizing the boat the other way as the wind catches the mainsail as the boat is righted. This can be avoided by turning the bows into wind before righting it. To do this, while the boat is on it's side, walk forward and stand in front of the front beam. This submerges the bow and the boat will turn into wind, slowly. So stand and wait for it to turn and then move back, lean back and right the boat.
  
• As the boat comes upright you end up in the water between the hulls. Grab onto the beam (or the tramp handle) to prevent the boat capsizing on the other side.
  
• Hoist yourself onto the boat over the front beam. I find it helpful to do this in the corner between the beam & the windward hull and then to pull myself on the boat using the toe strap.
  
• Spend a bit of time sorting out the ropes before sailing off again.
  

Obviously if the boat is just on its side you just miss out steps (c) & (d).
Give it a try - it is easier than you would think.


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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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I have righted a H16 from turtle many many times on a boat without a sealed mast. Always had 2 guys, not sure if I could have done it solo, but I think I could have gotten it back up to at least being on its side by myself. On a smaller lake we would turtle on purpose (after disconnecting the cooler from the tramp), so we could use the hulls and bottom of tramp as a semi-submerged lounge chair. Worked really well, especially with the H16 elevated (now submerged) tramp.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

the method Damon found sounds great and i have beefed up my main halyard to 5mm spectra now so in the event of me needing to put this method into practice i ill feel safe in loading up the halyard
just one extra complication would be if you went base over apex flying the kite as well some tigers hoist and douse the spin from the mast (others from the front beam) now thats going to be another challenge getting that thing back into its chute before starting righting procedure because one man trying to drag 35m2 of sail and 160kg of boat thru the water doesnt sound possible to me
i have a furling jib so doing that and bagging the kite would come first then going thru Damons method to get upright will be my plan
hope i never have to drop the rig !!!

Quote

This submerges the bow and the boat will turn into wind, slowly.

I find on my 5.7 that it doesn't work very well. I stood on those suckers for 15 minutes one day, with no movement. If you are trying to drag the sail "backwards" through the water, it is painfully slow, or not at all. Perhaps more weight, to sink the bow further,(create more drag) would help.
The mast can be swum quite easily, as long as you go in the direction of the leading edge of the mast. I did this, swum it 270* from mast being dead upwind. You have to be quick though, as the drag of the mast/sail wants to let the hulls move downwind, back into the same position you were in,(mast upwind)
The description given was for a 15' boat, maybe it is way easier on the smaller boats.
That link Damon was one I found while in Shanghai yesterday, quite a bit of good info. It seems like there is a good fleet of those boats, but not much personal experience on the web. I found one other link that showed the first sentence of a write up, but the link wouldn't go.

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I flipped my P16 last summer a few times while sailing with my buddy. We liked to push the limits on our hull flying. Turns out I had holes in the mast & each time we flipped the mast got a little heavier. One day while solo I flipped it on accident when I missed the hook going out on the wire. I went in the drink and in my attempt to keep from falling in I simultaneously pulled on the tiller and the main sheet causing the boat to jibe and promptly flip! With all the water in the mast from previous flips it quickly turned turtle. I just happened to have recently read the technique for getting a boat on its side from turtle in Catamaran Sailing From Start To Finish by Berman. I'm going to quote here cuz it worked like a dream even with a mast pretty much FULL of water. I'm 6'2, 170 btw.

"Standing on the leward hull, hang onto the righting line and lean outboard as far as possible. The righting line will make balancing your weight a lot easier. The whole operation should be done with your car floating crossways to the wind. If you're doing it right your cats windward hull should slowly rise." (pg 88)

Took maybe 60 seconds and the mast was out of the water. With it full of water I couldn't get it any further however and needed help from harbor patrol to lift the mast about 6-8 feet out of the water before I could right the damn thing. The next day I drilled a 1/4" hole at the bottom & that thing poured water for at least 5 min non-stop!!

I'm a bit surprised that the members here aren't more familiar with these methods. I immersed myself in that book and this forum before I took my boat out when I got it three summers ago. Then again I'm safety conscious from 17 years of lifeguarding and sail solo on the ocean, but seemed like a pretty normal first step to me for boats known to flip.

-Scott

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Scott
1982 Nacra 5.2 "Great White"
Ledbetter Beach, Santa Barbara, CA
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