I am a hobie man myself, but a friend just bought a used nacra 5.8 and we took it out for the first time yesterday. I am familliar with the boat as I had sailed with the previous owner a few times and figured I could help my friend set up the boat as he is new to catamarrans. Everything went together smoothly and we were sailing in no time. After about 30 minutes we heard two loud pops and realised the mast was sitting on the trampoline right behind the front crossbar. The dolphin striker post broke between the mast ball and the front crossbar and the mast was trying to tear through the trampoline. We decided the safest thing to do would be to capsize the boat so we can get the mast down while on the water before it had a chance to tear through the trampoline. This is what we did and were towed back in by a friendly family on a pontoon boat (motor variety )The only casualties were the dolphin striker post, the trampoline has a huge tear from the mast and a pair of costa del mar sunglasses. Anyone have a similar experience or might know what would have cuased this? My thoughts are just fatigue over the years as we were not sailing hard at all. Luckily no one was hurt.

--
Griff
Hobie 16
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
--

I haven't had this happen but can make a pretty good guess as to the cause.

When stepping/unstepping the mast you have to rotate the mast 90 degrees. If you don't the bottom casting on the mast will either break or bend the dolphinstriker back. I would suspect that someone in the past bent the dolphinstriker rod badly and instead of leaving it bent (not the best idea but is will work in the short term) or replacing it, bent it back straight. Bending the rod once is bad because stainless loses a lot of strength when it yeilds (you bend it once) but bending it twice is REALLY BAD because now you have opened any stress cracks that may have formed. If this is what happened it is just a matter of time. Normally those rods are pretty close to bullet proof, a 3/4" stainless bar is rediculously strong.

Next potential cause is a VERY loose rig, if the rigging isn't tight (relatively) or hasn't been tight and the mast flops around it subjects the rod to a lot of extra stress. You may have been sailing with a tight rig but the previous owner could have rigged it loose as a goose. You want it tight enough that everything stays in place but the mast can still rotate.

Lastly the previous owner could have just sailed the crap out of it for 25 years. To cover that possibility I would suggest you also inspect and look at replacing the standing rigging asap because it is likely trash.

The good news is that it's an easy fix, a dolphinstriker kit from Murrays will run you about $70 and is a pretty easy install. The tramp can be patched by your local sail loft or a good upholsterer (you may have to get the material for them from Sailrite).

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

On my P18, the dolphin striker post passes through the front crossbeam, and srews to the baseplate, leaving about 4" of post above crossbeam, the ball screws onto the top of the dolphin striker post. The post is held in place by the baseplate which is rivited to the crossbar, bottom of the post is attached to the dolphin striker rod. Lot of stress placed on the post and is transferred through the rod to the crossbeam, so yes fatigue would be your probable cause.

Some things to look for as factors contributing to stress would be standing rigging too loose allowing mast to "jump" up and down on ball and sriker rod. Other cats have a "captive" setup where after stepping the mast a pin is inserted through the mast base, it's postioning just below the ball effectively not allowing the mast to "jump off" the ball, always check that this type of setup is rotating freely once mast is stepped.

Turbo
Prindle 18

Got any pics of what's left of the rod?

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

I will try to post some pics if he hasn't thrown the ds away.

--
Griff
Hobie 16
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
--

Just out of curiosity. If you tip the boat over, the mast is all that prevents the "platform" from going turtle. If the mast is removed with the boat on its side, doesn't it flip turtle?

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

The boat did turn turtle and was sitting on top of the mast wich was laying on top of the water with all of the rigging still attatched. It took a great deal of work to get the mast freed from the boat so we could turn it back over again. This was the only way I could think of getting the mast down safely while on the water with a minimal amount of damage. I would love to know of another way to get the mast down safely while on the water with a broken ds.

--
Griff
Hobie 16
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
--

Had to respond to Turbo's comment about the "captive" mast/ball system. The only time the pin is used is to step the mast. Pin is inserted, while mast is rotated 90 degrees and raised into position. Once the mast is stepped the pin MUST be removed! Can't stress this strongly enough! The reason? If that pin is left in and the mast comes down for any reason without being rotated, you will absolutely destroy that dolphin striker rod, and possibly break the mast base. Plus, it will be bound so tightly that you may have to hacksaw the rod off below the ball to get it loose. Prindles and NACRAS that use this system like a tight rig and that prevents demasting. DO NOT use that pin for that purpose!



Edited by nacraman57 on Apr 25, 2011 - 05:23 PM.

Quote

It took a great deal of work to get the mast freed from the boat so we could turn it back over again.

So, if I have this right...you undid all the rigging & removed the mast. Now you are left with an upsidedown Cat. How the Hell do you turn that big of boat back over, without the benifit of the mast as a lever?
Reason I ask is
(A) I'd llike to know, in case it ever happens to my 5.7
(B) I read a post here about flipping the cat on its side, to step or unstep the mast. I have had my 5.7 on its side on the lawn, & can pull it over or right it solo, using the mast as a lever. I couldn't figure out how getting it on its side without the mast, or removing the mast, then getting the hulls eased down would be easier than stepping a mast with the Cat sitting upright.
It seems to me once you pulled the stick, those hulls would want to come crashing down. It also seems like a huge job to get the platform up on its side, to where you could attach mast & rigging.

Nacraman is right about the pin being removed after you get the mast up. I lowered my mast once, with the pin still in. I didn't break anything, but the pin was jammed so tight I had to cut it.



Edited by Edchris177 on Apr 26, 2011 - 04:17 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

I had the unfortunate occasion to intentionally drop the mast while my 5.8 was turtled. I believe that the masthead was leaking severely and we could not right the boat with the assistance of a powerboat.

The process of fixing such a mess goes like this:
(1) Pull the boat back to shallow-ish water and detach the rig. Don't lose it.
(2) Secure all appendages (rudders and boards).
(3) Pull the boat to very shallow water.
(4) Find several (quite a few) people to help. Assign some people to each side of the boat, most of the people will lift while the others keep the boat from wandering. Once you get the boat over, guide it down. This is extra fun if your boat weighs > 400 pounds.
(5) Take your lumps. You probably deserve it!

I'm sure Yurdle is laughing at me, even now.

Was not talking about the mast step link pin, read carefully, mentioned the "captive system" where after the mast is stepped a pin is inserted just below the ball almost touching the DS, this allows the mast to rotate freely but will not allow the mast to disconnect from the ball.

To illustrate, make a fist on your right hand, thumb facing you, now take your left hand and cup the wrist just below the fist, now drop your thumb across the wrist, you have effectively demonstrated the captive system.



Edited by turbohobo on Apr 27, 2011 - 06:40 AM.

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

EdChris it was a real booger to turn over. It took three large men and my buddies wife to turn it over without the mast. I hung on to the righting pole and my friends wife grabbed the daggerboard while two other men lifted the opposite hull out of the water. It was not possible until the third man came along and even then everyone seemed to be in a great deal of strain. It did work though. The pin was not inserted while sailing. I have to give it to you nacra guys, i was very impressed with how easily that boat tacked and pointed compared to my hobie 16. That is until our pleasent saturday afternoon sail was ruined. I am looking at this as a learning experience. I have since learned that the ds was bent when the po bought the boat. He straightened it out and sailed it very hard this way for many years. My thoughts are that we were just unluckly and the ds was just extremley fatigued and this was just the day it gave out.

--
Griff
Hobie 16
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
--

Ds was bent below the crossbar and broke above the crossbar. A bent ds is not likely the cause here.

--
Griff
Hobie 16
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
--

Thanks for the info, I thought it would be a real bitch, with plenty of opportunity for damage to boat and/or people.

Turbo...I'm thinking the same as some others. On the Nacra the "captive base" is only captive while stepping or unstepping the mast. The manual says to put the pin in before raising, then,
"Remove the mast step pin to allow the mast to rotate freely while sailing"
The only thing that keeps the stick in place is rig tension.
I believe G Camicks album has a good photo of a non captive base.

Here is the captive base of my 5.7 after stepping, with pin (bolt actually, the pin is somewhere in the lawn) in place. You can see that if the mast falls anywhere except exactly sideways, the mast base will hang up on the DS rod & bend it, along with other damage. Only by turning the mast so the base slot lines up with the DS rod can the stick be safely lowered.
There is no danger to leaving the pin in place...as long as your mast NEVER comes down

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Ed, Thanks for the picture! I was trying to dig one up myself to illustrate my respnse to Turbo. I didn't mean to say his post was wrong and if it came off that way I sincerely apologize. I have seen Prindles with the above setup and I think some were retro'ed. I can't explain the back hole on your mast base, my bases have just the single hole in front. Didn't you and I talk about that some time ago? As an example of what can happen...one day at the beach a couple fellows were loading their cat on the trailer. To lower the mast, the guy in front pulled the pin on the forestay, and as the guy on the tramp stepped back to the rear crossbeam the boat overcentered on the back rollers. They had forgotten to strap down the hulls. Anyway, as the front started to rise, the guy on the back toppled off the boat, hulls came down, the mast came crashing down and bent the heck out of the DS rod. The mast got dented on the traveler track, mast base was cracked and it was bound so tightly that despite the twisting, turning and raising the mast it took a hacksaw to free it. A mast coming down out on the water probably wouldn't be as violent but would still suck. The pin I use is a 1/4 x 2 1/4 with a ring-ding on one end and here's another spot to pay attention. Several times I have lowered the mast only to find the ring-ding between the mast base and tramp. DUH! So, back up goes the mast along with much cursing, to rotate it so the pin can be pulled. Another free tip! It's better to unstep the mast BEFORE the Bud Light!

Yeah, it doesn't matter which way you rotate the mast, just make sure you do it so the ring ding is on top once the mast comes down. My neighbors kid gave me a hand dropping the stick last fall, then left. A bit later I noticed the head of the bolt was on the bottom, duh. I just walked back to the garage for the bolt cutters.
A couple of other questions for you. When you sent me those photos of your beam dimensions last year (very helpul, I picked up a proper size V brace outside L.A.) I noticed another beam lying on the floor. Do you a spare you want to sell that will fit a 5.7?
Also, if you ever fliup your cat over again, take some detailed pics of how you have your righting system set up. My bag works OK, but is slower than a pole I think. I would like to build a pole system, to make solo righting easier. I like the system you have 2 photos of, but would appreciate all the details, no use trying to reinvent something.
Jim Casto has an album "the best righting system ever made", but the photos are not a large enough file to blow up clearly, & I haven't had any luck emailing him.



Edited by Edchris177 on May 04, 2011 - 04:39 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

No worries mates, no offense taken, I learned something about " captive mast systems".



--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

Hey Ed, The righting system on my 5.7 is the "Hawaiian" type righting system I use in conjunction with a bag. Works ok, but I still feel that the best, simplest system is a length of rope tied to the mast base and thrown over the hulls. The pole system I have is on my 5.0. It is a direct copy of Rick White's design. The only difference is that instead of stopper knots, I use a rope lock to quickly adjust pole angles if needed. The 5.0 is my solo boat and I learned early on if your trapped out on a screaming reach miles from home you damn well better be able to self rescue if things go south. The 5.0 has a homemade bob at the mast end, the aforementioned pole righting system and a block at the end of the pole to feed a rope attatched to a righting bag if need be. I'm going to take the 5.0 to the lake this weekend for the first sail of the season and will take some pics of the pole setup and post or e-mail to you. As for the extra beams you mentioned, they came from a 5.0 my brother-in-law had years ago that we just sailed to death. Sails blown out, soft spots in the hulls from stem to stern. We killed it. Saved the beams, mast, rudders etc. Was toying with the the idea of building a plywood-hulled Formula 16 cat using these spare parts. Can you imagine a 16' cat weighing in at or less than 300lbs.? Say, by the way, you're an aeronautical guy... what do you make of the pics of the tail rotor of the chopper that went down on the bin Laden raid. Obviously an H-60 , but, look a little "stealthy" to you???

I use the "knotted line around the mast" system now. Very quick, if I have a crew, takes more time to rig the bag (& generally I need it if solo). I was thinking that the pole would be quicker, do you still need a bag with the pole on you 5.0?
I can sail without dumping, but it's way more fun to go flat out on the edge in 20 kts wind. Solo on the 5.7 is a handful in those conditions. I'm hoping a pole would reduce righting time/effort. I liked the look & simplicity of the system you are using.
I don't know much about stealth, my ride weighs over 800,000lbs & we try to show up on the screens! Other than reducing sharp angles to prevent reflections & radar absorbing coatings I have little knowledge. I only flew fling wing a few times, we were always told they don't actually fly, but vibrate & make obnoxious noise til the earth rejects them!
Major issues with rotary wing are that max speed is relatively slow due to retreating blade stall, & noise. I think the ducted fan tail rotor was developed to to reduce the noise footprint over urban areas. Those long blades, with tip speeds near Mach 1 also make lots of noise. When I was in flight school Kelly Johnson was head of the Lockheed Skunkworks. Many are familiar with the U2 & the SR-71, but they also had myriads of lesser or unknown projects, & I'm sure not much has changed. A stealthy, fast & quiet rotary wing would be the Holy Grail of fling wing.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Ed, funny you should mention Kelly Johnson as I had an uncle that worked in the infamous skunkworks for Lockheed. He would come out to the farm for vacation and it would take several days for him to decompress. He once told me that even though the SR-71 still holds altitude and speed records it was one of the last projects to be designed using a slide rule! Makes you wonder what's in the hopper now. Ironically, the titanium that went into that plane was imported from the Soviet Union! I had the oppourtunity to examine an SR-71 up close at Offutt AFB before it was moved to the Srategic Air and Space Museum in Ashland, NE. I remember running my hand along the underbelly and thinking that it felt like a bunch of pop cans riveted together. Anyway to avoid being accused of hijacking this thread I thought I'd better show you the righting pole you asked about that I made several years ago for my 5.0. It is an Alcoa seamless 6061 aluminum tube 2.25 OD, .083 wall. The hinge is made of the same indestructable acrylic plastic cutting boards are made of. The line is a .25" Marlow pre-stretched although I think some of the new space age Dyneemas might work better. At the end of the pole I installed a small block that I can feed a rope attached to a righting bag if need be. There are more pictures I put in an album in the Tech section.I used rope locks instead stopper knots to adjust pole angles. The angle that works best for me is straight and parallel to the mast. When the boat pops back up the pole swings straight back under the tramp Hope this pic shows up...if not go to the Tech gallery

Thanks, how did you make that hinge unit? It looks to neat to be garage built! Can you right the 5.7 using just the pole? I'd like to eliminate the bag if possible.
One other question, I'm rebuilding a front beam, using the measurements you sent me, & have to drill holes for the V-brace.
Your front V-brace was attached so as to give it a 73" length. I notice your rear beam tabs are at 73 3/4".
Is this 3/4" difference due to hull curvature, (rear hulls at tab must be narrower than tab position on front hulls?), or do you think factory guy was strung out & made a mistake? Do those measurements result in your hulls not being parallel? Or, are the hulls deliberately not parallel, because under load they get forced closer to parallel?
Does your 5.0 show the same difference between front & rear?
I'd like to drill & build the beam this weekend, & can't find any specs. Those photos you sent me last season when your boat was upside down have proved very useful. I have the only 5.7 around, so I can't find another to look at.



Edited by Edchris177 on May 13, 2011 - 10:06 AM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Guys check out the book Skunkworks by Ben Rich. I'm a bit of an aviation buff (a week in a Jet Ranger 3 got me hooked) and an engineer by education and employment. That is an amazing read and talks all about the F104, U-2, SR71, F117. EC what are you doing to your front beam? I have a spare set of beam straps if you need them.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Righting question...
Can a 170 lb man right a 5.2 with a knotted line mechanism (i.e. line attached to mast base over hull)?

--
Gray Amick
Chapin, SC
'77 NACRA 5.2
--

It will be close, I do it easly but I'm close to 220 lbs.

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

gcamick

Righting question...
Can a 170 lb man right a 5.2 with a knotted line mechanism (i.e. line attached to mast base over hull)?

in the ocean with constant strong winds and a waves to lift the mast from the water you MAY be able to

but on our flat water mountain lake, strong gusts can get my 5.2 on it's side and my 170lbs is unable to un-stick the mast and sail from the flat water at exactly the same time another strong gust is needed to get under the sail and start the righting...

Gray, If conditions are right, I can just get my 5.7 up solo, at 170 lbs. You need to be in good enough shape to hold yourself horizontal,fully extended, on your tiptoes, 4" off the water, then hold that position for 10-20 seconds. The sail will slowly come out of the water, & the mast about 3" off the water. Then I need a bit of wind under the sail, otherwise I sit in that position til I tire out. I bring a bag with me. I bought a large one, but only need a couple gallons in it, & the boat comes right up.
I use a 3/4" line, easy to hold, with some well placed knots for hand grips. Put the boat on its side to see where you need the knots.



Edited by Edchris177 on May 13, 2011 - 06:32 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

I am just about to possibly buy a nacra 5.8 for $3000, it's an older one, serial number gone but surely 80s. It's got a couple knicks but also has unique mods that could not be comparted to others. Here is the craigslist.

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa/3720911556.html

The retrofit wing seats are great, well built and installed, great how they fold in without taking them off. Also has homemade motormount that's better than the one I bought for a Hobie. Has running lights as well as mounts, also coolers built into the hulls surrounded by closed cell foam used to make the hulls unsinkable is just cool. Back cooler used for battery storage great becuase having it flopping around on the deck isn't cool.

But I've noticed that 5.8's seem to draw a little less money demand than others. Do you think it's worth it? Paint makes it look new but you can see from the one picture adding the filling sucked the sides of the hulls in in a couple places, tho it will not break because trust me doing that also made it very solid. The hulls are only about half filled, btw, not front to back. Standing rigging is brand new. Sails old but well cared for.

Also ik this topic is old but I decided to use it because it talks about righting, are these worse to right than the 5.7?




BTW anyone in the south florida/keys area I'm selling my 2000 H17 sport. Will be a CL listing soon. It's a great boat just not what I want, I just got it recently, will probably regret not giving it a more of a chance.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 11, 2013 - 10:23 AM.

$3k for a real nice one is in the ballpark.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Biscaynecatsailor,

I personally would not touch it. The owner doesn't know anything about this boat so don't trust anything he says. Here's some info that might help. First, from the ad you don't know if this is a 5.8 (19') or a early 6.0 (20') (which had the single diamonds on the mast). Next, it matters if it was built '85 or newer, which is foam core/sandwich construction. The expandable foam concerns me for oh so many reasons. The mast has a spin tang on it but the hulls (he calls keels) are not set up for a spin. There is little value in the sails, which add no value to the boat. The mast shows a lot of galvanic corrosion where hardware is mounted. Ports have been added forward of the main beam ( a huge no-no on this platform). The aluminum dolphin striker V-bar has been drilled and modified ( another major F.U.B.A.R.). The main beam has been drilled (at a know point of failure) for the retractable benches (wings), which concerns me. And that is just what I can make out from a bunch of grainy pictures.

$3000 will buy you a very nice boat. If you are looking for a late night party barge on the inter-coastal with running lights then this is your horse. Nowhere near a $3000 boat.

--
Philip
--

After taking a look at that listing, Do not touch it as Phillip suggested. My previous post was just about what a nice 5.8 is worth. This boat is far from that.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

You think the foam in the hulls could make it break up in the waves? I couldn't really imagine the large forward crossbar buckling due to the homemade wing seat addition but I understand concerns. What would you say this is worth and do you think it really does have a dangerously high chance of breaking up in ocean waves? I've broke the forestay twice on my 17 (in different places, had two sets of cables but neither were new), I like the boat but it's so small and sits so low in the water that I don't like it on the ocean even if the mast would stay up for once. Also the motor mount hits the water all the time unless you're heeling on one hull, also there's really no place to mount or even temporarily put the battery on it. Which really is needed to get throught causeways channels and bridges.

Also the hobies are so heavy of fiberglass with such a sharp hull that the waves really seem to beat them up because they're always trying to crash down and through the water instead of being on top of it. I noticed that the hulls on this nacra are very thin relatively, but seem solid, they are definitely not sandwhich type. It is a 5.8 99% sure pretty sure the sail said 5.8. If it means anything the mast has cable tensioners on the sides like a lot of the bigger boats have. I was gonna try to get it for 2800. But you think it's probably not worth much over 1000?

I've kind of given up on the hobies. I had the masthead rivets fail on a double pulley 16 due to the bubble in a capsize that wasn't even rough, the 16s pitchpole, the 17 sits too low, cables break, cables seem too long even though they measure out, they're too heavy, too slow, and too low capacity. The nacra seemed bettter. Upon my real life inspection it didn't look terribly scary. The guy who did the mods is aparantly an aircraft engineer. It's kind of back and forth and back with this boat. At first it looks good because it's been re gelcoed, then it looks a little scary when you look closer, but then in real life it seems okay again.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 11, 2013 - 12:47 PM.

I wouldn't mess with any boat that has had the hulls filled with foam, period.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Too much stiffness will make it break up? Shaking the whole boat as well as tapping it (only the parts around the tramp have the filling, the fronts are hollow) it feels more solid and stiff than most any hobie.

The problem with foam is that it will Absorb water. There is no question about that. This boat will gain serious weight over its lifetime.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

It's had the foam in it for quite some time. I believe it's similar to great stuff, not styrofoam, I don't think it would absorb water, I believe it's a closed cell type of foam.

Anyway if this boat doesn't happen where can I buy "heavier cables" for the 17 as I was told to do. Or do I have to make them myself at west marine or elsewhere? I want to be able to crash and bash through ocean waves, here's the big one, SIN QUE I sit with the knowledge that something is going to break for sure. Actually I was in the process of making some mods to the 17, double standing rigging I'll post pics

biscaynecatsailor

It's had the foam in it for quite some time. I believe it's similar to great stuff, not styrofoam, I don't think it would absorb water, I believe it's a closed cell type of foam.

Expandable foam in the hulls is bad, very bad.

Take the rest of the issues raised by Philip seriously, he knows the Nacra 5.8.

The Nacra 5.8 is a great boat, but maybe not that particular one.

If you could weigh the boat fully rigged I'm sure you would find it extremely overweight.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Well it was strapped to the trailer. I was almost certain I was going to get it, but thanks for realizing me of the gravity of these "modifications" maybe I will go look at it closer, unstrap it and see how heavy it "feels." From prior familiarity with closed cell building insulation, I really thought this stuff was not supossed to have moisture problems.

try Salty Dog Marine......

http://www.saltydogmarine.com/

or Murrays......

http://www.murrays.com/

In both cases, call them up and let them know you want to go with heavier standing rigging.

R

But is this not a good idea for the fact that it's best to have the cables as the weak point? I mean I certainly don't want the mount ripping out of the fiberglass or the tang to come off. The ocean is serious. and yesterday was only a 12-16 e'sou'easterly, maybe, maybe a rare gust of 20, and the boat was pretty rockin in the waves. But alas these are beach cats, meant for the ocean, right? It's just that going through the ~5 foot curlers where the outgoing tide met the wind waves at the channel mouth just didn't seem like any stiff non inflatable boat could be built with the intention of handling that.

The weight is not a huge concern, here's the question:

Does the foam in the hulls increase the chance that they will break apart or that the boat will otherwise catastrophically fail under heavy sail/seas?

As for the mast, couldn't the rivets be redone, possibly a size larger. Hand pop riveting isn't terribly involved.

Thanks.

biscaynecatsailor

The weight is not a huge concern, here's the question:

Does the foam in the hulls increase the chance that they will break apart or that the boat will otherwise catastrophically fail under heavy sail/seas?

As for the mast, couldn't the rivets be redone, possibly a size larger. Hand pop riveting isn't terribly involved.

Thanks.

Weight IS a huge concern when you make a beachcat heavier than it was designed. Heavier means it displaces more water and increases stresses everywhere. So yes, in my opinion a boat partially filled with foam is more likely to have major problems.

The other big concern with foam is that it is often put in to "fix" problems like soft spots or leaks, and once the foam is in it makes it extremely difficult to fix properly.

Also, in the case of this boat, those hatches, look like a problem. In all but the lightest winds and smoothest water they will spend time submerged. If they leak at all they will fill with water.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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I'm going to go take a closer look at it.

I think your biggest concern with these mods is that you're also planning to use the boat in the surf. That will be extremely stressful (just go watch some GT300 vids) and any spots that are significantly different stiffness, especially if they're heavier as well, aren't going to work out for long while taking a beating. Same thing with inspection ports in front of the main beam...actually, imo, ports in front of the main beam essentially make the hulls disposable. I haven't looked closely at the pics, though, just going by what ppl here have said.

Your post about using the motor and battery, though, demonstrate that your needs are clearly so different from mine that I can't really comment further about what would or wouldn't work for you. But regardless, seriously, the surf will likely sink that boat.

Good luck,

Someone that sunk a cat and swam back to shore.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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I went and looked at the pics..'half full' of foam sounds insane, but after looking, I think that regardless of the foam, as Philip said, the dolphin striker, inspection ports, and holes in the main beam just inside of the hull connections def make that thing soon-to-be-bowless if it goes through much surf. That's not to slam anyone's boat, and the paint is pretty, but I know I break things much sturdier than that looks quite often.

The spinnaker tang is noteworthy to me...I bet that boat's had an interesting life.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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biscaynecatsailor

The weight is not a huge concern, here's the question:

Does the foam in the hulls increase the chance that they will break apart or that the boat will otherwise catastrophically fail under heavy seas?

Thanks.

The answer to that depends.

When the foam is installed, it expands, no surprise there. However the foam CAN create pressure. Pressure is a Bad thing. There needs to be resistance to flow to create pressure, meaning that this depends how it was installed. In this case we do not know that. If the foam is contained, or installed in such a high quantity that it cannot "vent" properly, it can push on everything in the hulls. No different than blowing up hulls with an air. There are numerous people on the forum who have destroyed hulls with a shop vac putting some air into the hulls looking for leaks. I have personally seen a boat in Florida that had rippled hulls from foam. In this case it was a severe delamination problem that the owner was making a last ditch effort to repair.

Later in the boats life, no matter how the foam was installed, it will take on water. This adds weight, ALOT of weight. Ask a Hobie monocat owner. My monocat started life at 200lbs, when I threw it in the dump it was more like 600lbs. So your stressing the boat more all of the time with the extra weight.

The damp foam creates another problem, your inside of the boat will be permanently be damp. This causes blisters and other fiberglass problems.


Check out my P19, makes you second quess port holes in front of the beam.





Edited by bacho on Apr 11, 2013 - 05:29 PM.

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Greenville SC

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Pics coming soon. I think you will see that while the boat may not be great, the mods are not as bad as you all thought. Maybe not by a long shot.

Three issues we'll adress:

Mast rivet corrosion
Hole cut out in main crossbar for wingseat
Stuffing, which is medium density polyeurethane

As for earlier concerns, the boat measures about 19' 2" hulls only, 20 on the nose including rudder frame but not rudder itself. It is not sandwhich core, it is just fiberglass, probably pre 85. Fiberglass seems to be in great shape, boat is very stiff, no soft spots in hollow areas; whole area in front of front crossbar.

voila nothing is cut out of crossbar. Seat assembly is stainless steel, plates were rounded to meet curvature of bar, and gasket was added to prevent bi-metal corrosion.



Pictures don't show well but mast is not corroded. Clear silicone was added around all rivets, tang, etc to ensure positive buoyancy. One thing to note about the mast is that is has tension cables:



Daggerboards were home made going only by pictures, originals were lost or broken:



Homemade motor mount better that chelea one:



Hull is thin, this shows some of the medium density polyeurethan that spilled over into here. It was applied liquid, the boat does feel a bit heavy, but not much over 400 pounds.





Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 11, 2013 - 11:20 PM.

Originally you sounded like it might be too much money, which was confirmed here. Now it seems your tryin to sell it to us.

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Greenville SC

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Biscayne, if as you say the boat is all glass this is a definite plus for a cruiser. The mods are well done and well thought out. If what you want is a cruiser, this boat will fill that bill.

The additional weight of the mods plus crew load is going to increase the draft considerable. Adding the wings increases the righting moment, this is not ALWAYS a good thing. If you INCREASE the righting moment and INCREASE the draft and then......................... stay with me..................... fully power the sail, you overload the standing rigging because the boat cannot spill any air by heeling. This in turn overloads all the tangs and attachment points.

If you just want to cruise (which is pretty much all this boat is good for), then downsize the sail plan and accept that hull flying isn't in the cards. Downsizing the sail plan will bring the rig loading back within the tolerances the original designer drafted.

We all pay for our education, one way or another, advice is also worth what you pay for it (you ain't paying much on this board.) Let us know a year from now if this boat was 'a good deal.'

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Probably with four or more people flying the hull won't be in the plan, besides that kind of wind doesn't happen often. But for sailing with one or two people the added weight might actually be nice for keeping the boat more steady and controlled. I know adding the little motor/mount/battery to the 17 made it noticably more balanced than without. I know soloing on a H16 you have to be really on the ball in a good wind and it's hard to even get them going.

I understand one of the other major concerns here is the access ports in front of the forward crossbar? They are not original, or they are and it was just a bad design?



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 12, 2013 - 08:00 AM.

They were probably installed to make a repair on the beam bolts or to drain water that may now be trapped in front of the foam section.

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Greenville SC

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Have you considered a Getaway?

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Boats don't seem to come up a lot here. I basically just search CL SFL and Keys for keyword hobie or nacra now and then. Hobie getaway is pretty new. I thought it was like a watered down replacement for the 18, also with no dagger boards like a 16, therefore it must pitchpole like a 16 with stubborn hulls that don't like to go forward.

Someone actually told me you can find better deals around tampa area where a lot of older people are selling them cheap because they're one foot on a banana peel other in the grave and don't really need the money anyway. Don't really like to make that kind of a trip if there's even a significant chance of just ending up looking at a boat and not even getting it.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 12, 2013 - 09:52 AM.

Same thought as yurdle, consider the Getaway, rotomolded plastic hulls, almost indestructible, cooler hatches, wing seats, roller furling jib, forward tramp, the hulls are high volume hulls and the boat sits high on the water.

Just to bring you up to speed on the Hobie 16, although the boat is over 30 years old, there has never been a more successful design, the distinct banana shape was specifically for handling California surf, not the baby waves you get in Florida, but 4'-6' waves. The jib on the H16 was over-sized, more like a Genoa, and it is this over-sized jib as well as the position of the bridle wires up on the bow that gives the H16 it's pitch-pole tendency. Most professionally set-up H16's have foot straps on the rear of the hulls, about 8"-12" forward of the transom, so that they can trap off the back of the boat on a screaming reach, 1 foot in the strap, the other foot braced against the rear beam. Been there, done that, nothing more exciting other than sitting on a sidewinder and asking your kid brother to light the fuse.......

But the Getaway would seem to suite your situation, can carry 4-6 adults + beverage + gear and can still get up some good speed, you can island hop, drive it up onto beaches, furl the jib in a big blow, add an anchor, it has no boom, did I mention it has good speed.....???

http://www.hobiecat.com/sailboats/getaway/

Well they told me the access holes in front of forward crossbar came with the boat.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 12, 2013 - 05:22 PM.

Quote

It's a clever man who learns from his own mistakes, but it's the wise man who learns from the mistakes of others......William White Braid (my Dad)

Catsailor, despite the advice of many more experienced sailors, you seem to be set on this particular N5.8 for whatever reason. By all means then, go ahead and acquire the boat, ultimately, it is your decision. Please keep us updated.

R

I probably won't even have to. Just listen to a coast guard scanner or something.

"uh lets intercept this unidentified floating object, looks to be some kind of a cuba contraption...oh no just a broken up ghetto rigged nacra that someone was stupid enough to buy and sail alone in the ocean without even a cell phone on."

Some sailing lessons would be a wiser use of your funds. Thanks for the entertainment in this thread!

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Last issue I forgot. Mast corrosion. Here's some better pics tell me how bad you think it is. Remember the rivets all have clear silicone which shows more poorly with the camera flash than in real life.

The silicone on some of those fittings is just around the fitting to prevent water getting in. And that's good. It isn't separating the two metals, though.

No question, even without the pics, that an aluminum mast with stainless fittings in a coastal area will have galvanic corrosion. If there is a question, it is 'how bad?'

To me, that just falls in the 'everything's got a price' category.

I like the shackle in the first pic.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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There is a story behind that clevis and a reason it wasnt replaced. Anyway i know the silicone is not to prevent corrosion. Its just for waterproofing of course. I was just saying because somebody commented from the grainy CL photo that it looked badly corroded when i think they were just seeing the silicone.

Dont worry Ive got plenty of bad idas to "fix" this boat from the narca thats seen better days to the narca from hell that should be put out of its misery.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 13, 2013 - 04:22 PM.

The guy won't move from 3,000, yet. Boat I was looking for all previously was an 18 SX and this one seems to come with plenty, but for a bit more dough. Also it comes with the aftermarket squaretop sail that doesn't even feed into the boom and a small stormsail, no proper 18sx sail. wonder if it's even the proper sx mast.

http://tampa.craigslist.o…/hil/boa/3715437924.html

The 18 is loose footed if that's what you were concerened about. Looks like an SX mast to me.

Why don't they use the mini boomlet or just no boom for that?

Because it wasn't designed that way :)

Booms and boomless both have pros and cons. Take note that almost all performance boats today have booms, and most cruiser boats do not.

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Greenville SC

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Quote

Also it comes with the aftermarket squaretop sail that doesn't even feed into the boom and a small stormsail, no proper 18sx sail. wonder if it's even the proper sx mast.

....... catsailor, you killing us with some of your statements.

FYI, some cats have fixed mainsail, when the mainsail is attached to the boom by sliding the foot of the sail into a track on the boom, the foot is fixed, ie H16



When the mainsail is attached to the boom by securing the clew of the sail to an outhaul car on the rear of the boom, it is "loose-footed", ie Tornado, Prindle, etc.





HTH
R



Edited by the-renovator on Apr 15, 2013 - 08:48 AM.

biscaynecatsailor

Also it comes with the aftermarket squaretop sail that doesn't even feed into the boom and a small stormsail, no proper 18sx sail. wonder if it's even the proper sx mast.

http://tampa.craigslist.o…/hil/boa/3715437924.html

That 1990 18SX looks like a really nice boat. Of course it would need to be inspected closely like any used item.

I can tell you that Hobie 18's built for the 1989 model year and later are as good as it gets. They have the strongest/lightest hulls and the best rudder system. The SX model had the long wings and also about 18 inches more mast.

The Whirlwind squaretop is a really nice sail. The sailmaker that owns Whirlwind, Chip Buck, worked for Hobie and was responsible for the computer design of the SX and Getaway sails among others.

Here's a picture that shows how the Hobie 18 main attaches to the boom, the boat in front has a Squaretop from Whirlwind and the boat in other boat has a standard shape dacron from Whirlwind. Both these boats are standard Hobie 18's, not SX's despite the wings on my boat.



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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Yeah it's a long trip just to look at the boat and hulls. And after all that it's just another hobie. also while they say it holds lot of weight they say the h16 holds 800 lbs which just sounds scary and dangerous. The hulls are the same skinny style as all other hobies. And I was looking at a getaway parked on ft lauderdale beach it looks a bit watered down. Also saw a cross section of a getaway at the hobie store nautical ventures I-95 and griffin road it's literally plastic with some soft foam behind it. Doesn't seem stronger than good fiberglass.

Serious difference between a Hobie 18 and 16. The 18 will handle double the weight easily. I've owned and raced both. 800lbs on a 16 is a pipe dream but you could cruise on the 18 with close to that. I put 600+ on mine all the time. I raced my 16 at 340lbs and that was too much for it in my opinion.

The Getaway and Wave are tough as nails and are designed to take abuse in a rental fleet for years. The wave and getaway will take much more abuse than the glass boats, no question there. They do not offer the same performance though.

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Greenville SC

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Yeah the getaway seems pretty watered down. The low new price also reflects.

The 18 is like a 17 sport with much deeper hulls. I was pretty disappointed with the 17, wish I never bought it. I was actually trying to get an 18sx for 2000 that was in the same area but it got sold. The nacra has huge hulls. I can see where it would hold 6 people easy but that would put a ton of stress on the hulls right where the access holes are. It may have been sold, CL listing is gone. Prolly a good thing if it did.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 15, 2013 - 12:43 PM.

How easily do those wing seats come off that sx as far as trailering? I trailered the 17 40 miles with the wing seats on, it wasn't cool. I was never told to take them off or that it was so easy.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 15, 2013 - 12:44 PM.

They come off pretty easily. There is a couple pins to pull to flip them up, and a couple bolts to completely remove them.

Have you tried a 16 for your purposes? Takes a while to learn how to sail them, but they can go fast.

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16s suck. been on those a lot. pitchpolasauras gotta hang off the back of the thing. point up wind poorly tack bad. Had a 1976 orange h16. solid hulls heard they were made with real epoxy with stronger chemicals back then. sides were a little thin is all.

Here's me on the 16 I just tore apart getting chased down on by two police departments, the coast guard and two private tow companies after trying to go out to the ocean thru haulover on a small craft advisory day.





Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 15, 2013 - 01:14 PM.

biscaynecatsailor

Yeah the getaway seems pretty watered down. The low new price also reflects.

But you'd rather water down a boat that's not made for it?

biscaynecatsailor

The 18 is like a 17 sport with much deeper hulls. I was pretty disappointed with the 17, wish I never bought it. I was actually trying to get an 18sx for 2000 that was in the same area but it got sold. The nacra has huge hulls. I can see where it would hold 6 people easy but that would put a ton of stress on the hulls right where the access holes are. It may have been sold, CL listing is gone. Prolly a good thing if it did.Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 15, 2013 - 12:43 PM.

I've never sailed an H17, so I can't really comment there, but I'm not really inclined to take your assessment of it, either. I don't understand any issue you'd have with that 18 other than the price, until you've seen it in person. I've sailed both, as skipper and crew, the H18 and the 5.8, and while I'd rather be on a 5.8, and I've sunk an H18 (port hull snapped right in half), I can't imagine anyone thinking that boat for boat, a post '87 H18 and a pre '85 N5.8 would be anywhere close to each other in terms of durability.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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biscaynecatsailor

16s suck. been on those a lot. pitchpolasauras gotta hang off the back of the thing. point up wind poorly tack bad. Had a 1976 orange h16. solid hulls heard they were made with real epoxy with stronger chemicals back then. sides were a little thin is all.

Here's me on the 16 I just tore apart getting chased down on by two police departments, the coast guard and two private tow companies after trying to go out to the ocean thru haulover on a small craft advisory day.

Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 15, 2013 - 01:14 PM.

if you sail it right they are fine

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Angelo
1983 Hobie 16 Cat fever #55697
2008 laser 4.7/radial #190471
SARASOTA, FLORIDA
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not really do you have any idea how shallow and island packed the bay is? Also the fact that you have to constantly cross the go fast channel which along with all the bay is packed with boats on weekends.

Yeah I know my opinion doesn't count but the 17 is by everyone I've talked to "designed as a one person boat". It's so low the motor mount hits the water unless you're on one hull. I don't know why they quit making the 18, but the 17 I can understand, it's a pretty niche boat.

Yeah I'm sure this 18 sx unless there turns out to be something hugely wrong with it is better than the mod garaged narca, but it also costs more, doesn't have three coolers/two coolers plus hardwired battery box built into the hulls, does not come with mounted running lights, does not have a permanent and heavier duty but overall lighter motor mount, and is probably still not as fast. With the extra weigt in the narca (I did try to lift it, it is too heavy with the foam) it would actually be a good thing sailing alone. Not to mention the fiberglass on the narca is pretty darn solid. Remember it also has stiffening ribs on the inside.



Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 15, 2013 - 02:58 PM.

Foam sandwich boats are stiffer than the solid glass. My solid glass 5.8 oil canned pretty good and was easy to hole.

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Greenville SC

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Is that bad?

Not if you like running into rocks and coral.

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biscaynecatsailor

CL listing is gone.

Probably 'cause owner didn't want any half baked fruit loops pestering him.

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Philip
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